AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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November 27th, 2011 at 6:21:59 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The Padre will say I'm missing the point. I don't
think so. This whole story was obviously written
to keep people in line, to threaten them. Behave
or else. Maybe it worked in a time when ignorance
ruled everything, today its an insult to anybody
capable of thinking for themselves.



I don't take it as "behave or else." I take it as more of saying, "this life will throw challenges your way, but that is not the time to lose faith." Ever have a bad patch in life where work, personal life, everything, just seems to be falling apart? Did you rise to the challenge and feel better for it, or just let it consume you and stew in failures? Ever fail at somehting but learn from it and do better? That is the point of it.

One of the problems I have with many atheists is that they base their atheism at least part in the idea that, "if God loves us, why is there hardship in life?" Just like little kids who don't get something and tell their parents, "I HATE YOU" they think any negative should not happen because, "why would God do that?"

This might have a correlation to the OWS crowd spending months in their camps while Tea Party Rallies last a few hours before the attendees clean up, leave, and go back to some sort of job.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 6:59:47 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

One of the problems I have with many atheists is that they base their atheism at least part in the idea that, "if God loves us, why is there hardship in life?"



'Many' atheists think that? I've never met one, let alone
many. Most atheists I know are that way because the
concept of god makes no logical sense. The concept
that the universe was created for moral reasons, as
every religion teaches, its just silly.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
progrocker
progrocker
Joined: Feb 21, 2010
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November 27th, 2011 at 7:12:05 PM permalink
A lot of atheists use the Epicurus or Hume arguments from Evil because they're pretty damn good arguments. The two theist responses of freewill (what about natural disasters?) and Aquinas' "Good derived from Evil" (I don't agree killing 1 to save 2 is 'deriving good') are relatively weak. So sorry if you don't like atheists for basing their atheism on that, because it's actually a pretty damn good argument to base a stance on.

FrGamble, I just read of the revised translations for the Roman Missal being put into place this weekend, how'd that go with your congregation?
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 229
  • Posts: 12681
November 28th, 2011 at 4:11:23 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

'Many' atheists think that? I've never met one, let alone
many. Most atheists I know are that way because the
concept of god makes no logical sense. The concept
that the universe was created for moral reasons, as
every religion teaches, its just silly.



Knew one, from Panama, stated if God loved them he would not have made them so poor. Tom Leykis used to say this on air all the time. Rob Reiner channeled this all the time on AITF.

I never was taught the universe was created for "moral reasons" just that we are taught to be moral, not a bad thing.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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November 28th, 2011 at 9:42:18 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I hate to open a can of worms, but I think this brings up a question I have never received a satisfactory answer on. Here we see that god is one the one to harden our hearts. In other words, it seems like god chooses to soften some hearts and harden others, as if he is choosing us, not us choosing him. Other passages can back this argument up, about God hardening Pharaoh's heart, and I think somewhere it says "Many are called but few are chosen." So, what is it FrG, free will or predestination?



Wizard, this is a big question and a can of worms that I'm way too tired right now to try and answer. Suffice it to say for now that God predestines no one to have such hard hearts that they cannot know God and be saved. This is another way of saying God gives us all the grace and oppurtunity we need to be saved and that no one is predestined for hell. However, everything still depends on our free will and our choice to believe or not. Of course God knows already what our ultimate choice will be. So are we just back where we started?
It seems like this is not a question of either/or but rather a question of both/and when it comes to free will and predestination. Great now my head hurts and I am still tired. Peace.

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