Nareed
Nareed
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December 5th, 2011 at 7:22:13 AM permalink
Quote: Face

Forgive me for backtracking, but it's just been chewing at the back of my mind to the point I could not tolerate it anymore. I just could not believe the facts presented here. (/gasp!) So yesterday, I did it...



You're not much for the phrase "Don't try this at home," are you?

Quote:

Visual inspection revealed nothing, or at least nothing significant. I pressed my lips to the area and it was definately cold, not quite "ice cold", but colder than I've ever felt my skin. Within a minute or two, all pain had subsided and my hand was as good as it ever was.



One ice cube is very different than several, or ice water. but you do support my assertion that damage would not happen in a few seconds.

Quote:

Give me a few days to forget how terrible that bone ache felt and I'll try the salt =/



Make sure your insurance is paid up, and chose a finger you won't regret losing. Seriously, don't try it. Get a kind of semipermeable mebrane and a thermocouple if you must experiment. If that's not enough, get a pig carcass and try the experiment on it. There's a reason scientists use subjects.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
boymimbo
boymimbo
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December 5th, 2011 at 8:01:32 AM permalink
Or watch the various videos out there on the net.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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December 5th, 2011 at 8:04:52 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Seriously, don't try it. Get a kind of semipermeable mebrane and a thermocouple if you must experiment. If that's not enough, get a pig carcass and try the experiment on it. There's a reason scientists use subjects.



As someone posted before, there are you-tube segments showing people putting salt and ice-cubes on their arms [arms usually]. Evidently [after various hysterics/stoicism depending on subject] some come away with frostbite burns, but these home-made videos I've seen don't really make the aftermath very clear.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Nareed
Nareed
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December 5th, 2011 at 8:21:35 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

As someone posted before, there are you-tube segments showing people putting salt and ice-cubes on their arms [arms usually]. Evidently [after various hysterics/stoicism depending on subject] some come away with frostbite burns, but these home-made videos I've seen don't really make the aftermath very clear.



I try not to encourage Darwin Award wannabes. Encouraging knowledge is another matter. Some things are best learned by experiments or practical demonstration, rather than by looking up the answers. The problem is some experiments are dangerous and/or delicate. So I would encourage finding videos from actual scientific demos. One place is Popular Science's website.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
1BB
1BB
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December 5th, 2011 at 11:18:36 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Or watch the various videos out there on the net.



You'll probably come across the videos with the dollar bill and the lit cigarette as well.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Garnabby
Garnabby
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December 6th, 2011 at 2:20:28 PM permalink
Quote: weaselman

Garnabby, four words for you: eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


But true "silence is golden", however procured!

P.S. Can you put that in latin, or spanish too?
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
Face
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Face
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December 7th, 2011 at 12:17:07 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You're not much for the phrase "Don't try this at home," are you?



Not as general rule. I oppose the nanny state, and find most warnings to verge on absurd. Couple that with my penchant for taking risks, experience with cold, and damnable curiousity and I just had to do it. I appreciate all the concern, but really... I'm not partaking in some juvenile test of fortitude, only an experiment. I'm free to cry off at any time, and would do so if things seemed dangerous.

So, the salt. This cube was slightly bigger, something I wasn't concerned with because, as I said, I could cry off at any time. The location of placement was the same, and was nearly entirely covered with a layer of salt (only wanted to do it once, better do it right).

The process began much the same. 5 seconds in and I got the pricklies. 10 seconds in and it got numb. 20 seconds in and the bones in my hand started to ache. That ache again crept up my arm, but wasn't as severe or pronounced as I remembered it with the plain ice. I did notice a marked difference in the rate of melting. I don't know why, but it was a full 30-40 seconds before I felt the first drip. It was lasting forever. I noticed no discernable change after this point, and at a full two minutes twenty, twice as long as the plain ice, the patting of my hand to prevent dripping salt water on the floor caused the cube to slip off. As far as the pain goes, I could have lasted until the cube was gone and probably done another, it was nowhere near the discomfort of the first trial. I assume it's because my general pain level is higher today (recently had a hockey game) whereas last time I was quite comfy. Who knows...

Again, a press to the lips found my skin colder than I've ever felt it. I did notice a red spot where the cube had been. I went and had a smoke, checked it again (approx 3 min after ice removal) and my hand was as good as it ever was. No redness, no pain, no evidence whatsoever of the experiment.

So two things - First, while salt water is able to reach a lower temp than plain water, I don't believe the RATE of heat transfer changes. The heat would leave my hand at the same speed, there would just be more removed. Second, anyone ever watch Deadliest Catch? The Bering Sea freezes, the water always at salt waters temp of phase change. And everytime they quote the temp (which they do CONSTANTLY when talking about people falling in) it's always in the 20's. It's only a handful of degrees, which I didn't think would matter all that much. At least in my example, it didn't, and I feel I proved my point.

So there you have it. I've no doubt salt + ice, or just ice alone, could cause damage, whether it's a "burn" or total destruction of a limb. But at least now we have an idea of the scale which would have to be reached for injury to occur. I would suspect that for noticble damaged it would take well more than 5 minutes of constant contact, salt or no, for someone to experience a burn as the Father offered. And that'd be a hell of a big ice cube to last that long.

I stand by my call of shenanigans, Father. ;)
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FrGamble
FrGamble
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December 7th, 2011 at 9:06:40 PM permalink
Dear Face, thank you so much for your sacrifice and efforts - I don't know what to say. Next time I see her I will have to let her know that her shenanigans caused innocent and good people who she doesn't know to suffer. Seriously I guess I should say thanks, did I tell you about the time a student was late to class because he said he licked a flagpole in the frezzing cold and his tounge stuck, oh well nevermind I'm sure that is not true either... :) Peace.
Face
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Face
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December 7th, 2011 at 10:08:37 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Dear Face, thank you so much for your sacrifice and efforts - I don't know what to say. Next time I see her I will have to let her know that her shenanigans caused innocent and good people who she doesn't know to suffer. Seriously I guess I should say thanks, did I tell you about the time a student was late to class because he said he licked a flagpole in the frezzing cold and his tounge stuck, oh well nevermind I'm sure that is not true either... :) Peace.



Your quite welcome, Father, but twas nothing. I'd hardly call it suffering, just a short period of discomfort that was far more tolerable than the pain of my nagging curiosity. Nor would I blame her, since kids will be kids and no one even suggested, let alone forced, me to do it. Just make sure her conditions were similar to mine if you do confront. Ice CAN cause damage, and if she was involved in those youthful "feats of strength" and left it on for an absurd amount of time (a very large chunk or repeated normal cubes), she might well have incurred damage. But a single cube from a fountain drink, I'd say, nears the impossible.

But just FYI, the tongue is absolute truth. I never tried it (that's one "Do Not Try At Home" warning that mirrored my common sense) but I have had my lips stick to metal things in winter, such as a lighter, fishing lure, hunting knife, etc, and it has peeled lip skin. And I have licked a finger and stuck it to a flagpole after watching Christmas specials, and it does stick. And idiot friends who've licked ski lift lap bars, and is was hilarious and terrible. That old standby is no myth.
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Nareed
Nareed
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December 8th, 2011 at 7:52:17 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Next time I see her I will have to let her know that her shenanigans caused innocent and good people who she doesn't know to suffer.



Actually it was your question here concerning her actions that led Face to try to get frostbite. Had you not asked about it, she could have set herself on fire, or jumped off a bridge, or done any other number of unwise things, and Face and his hand would have remained blissfully unaware of them. :)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

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