Bible Study: Mt. 25:1-13
Thanks again for your help in giving a different perspective of these readings. I should let you know that of course I have my own thoughts, I scour a few commentaries, look at what the Early Church thought of the readings, check out the catechism, and now I really enjoy hearing the WoV forums comments and questions - you all round it out and help me hear something I won't get anywhere else - thanks again!
Jesus told his disciples this parable:
"The kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins
who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
The foolish ones, when taking their lamps,
brought no oil with them,
but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.
Since the bridegroom was long delayed,
they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
At midnight, there was a cry,
'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
The foolish ones said to the wise,
'Give us some of your oil,
for our lamps are going out.'
But the wise ones replied,
'No, for there may not be enough for us and you.
Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.'
While they went off to buy it,
the bridegroom came
and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him.
Then the door was locked.
Afterwards the other virgins came and said,
'Lord, Lord, open the door for us!'
But he said in reply,
'Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.'
Therefore, stay awake,
for you know neither the day nor the hour."
Sorry for the joke, Father, but I would think the foolish ones wouldn't remain virgins in the first place.
I guess what I get from it is that one shouldn't expect to get into the kingdom of heaven just by going through the motions of faith. One needs to be prepared for the journey, prepared and respectful enough to wait and stay on task if you will.
Here's one for you to mull over ...
____________________________________
TEACHING THE ULTIMATE
In early times in Japan, bamboo-and-paper lanterns were used with candles inside. A blind man, visiting a friend one night, was offered a lantern to carry home with him.
"I do not need a lantern," he said. "Darkness or light is all the same to me."
"I know you do not need a lantern to find your way," his friend replied, "but if you don't have one, someone else may run into you. So you must take it."
The blind man started off with the lantern and before he had walked very far someone ran squarely into him. "Look out where you are going!" he exclaimed to the stranger. "Can't you see this lantern?"
"Your candle has burned out, brother," replied the stranger.
______________________________________
Here is a link to 101 Zen Stories: zenstories' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.101zenstories.com]zenstories
Quote: MrVHere's one for you to mull over ...
Not bad; with yet another strange twist in the moral that one of Jesus' might have. Then again all Zen teaching seems wierd to me, to which the correct reply seems to be "of course, you unenlightened idiot"
I hadn't given much thought lately to the Wedding parables till Fr. Gamble started trotting them out, but I am struck now how attending a Jewish one in those days was a real minefield. Wrong clothes? Untrimmed, guttering wick for that lamp you better bring? Look out! and do not run out of wine![g]
And you would think that "maiden" would have been substituted for "virgin" in the first translations!
Quote: FrGamble
Then the door was locked.
Afterwards the other virgins came and said,
'Lord, Lord, open the door for us!'
But he said in reply,
'Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.'
I thought the god of the New Testament was supposed to be big on forgiveness, but this seems terribly unforgiving to me.
I think all religions are rather arbitrary and capricious. In this originally presented parable, the "wise" were the ones who brought extra oil. Which in that day would be those who had been taught to bring extra oil. The servicing of lamps and ink wells was done by females. So here it seems that "wise" has little to do with wisdom but mere training in a menial task of the household arts.Quote: WizardI thought the god of the New Testament was supposed to be big on forgiveness, but this seems terribly unforgiving to me.
Religions are institutions with great power (due to beliefs involved in their own propaganda) and to the fact that as institutions they hold sway over everyday life: property records, wills, public opinion, trials, etc. It is similar to our schools, no great hurdle to become a priest, no particularly difficult tasks to perform, no accountability, yet they possess the power to tax.
Quote: FleaStiffIn this originally presented parable, the "wise" were the ones who brought extra oil. Which in that day would be those who had been taught to bring extra oil. The servicing of lamps and ink wells was done by females. So here it seems that "wise" has little to do with wisdom but mere training in a menial task of the household arts.
I don't know about that. Back in the days before you had a light switch I would think it would be pretty wise to bring some extra oil wether you were male or female and it would be more than a menial task, I could see it being a life or death situation. You don't want to be trying to get anywhere in the dark with no lights in a desert. If these wise ones were taught to bring extra oil it was a life saving lesson. Maybe what the Church teaches is not to hold sway or for some type of power, but maybe it is to help people so they don't get caught out in the dark, lost, scared, and locked out.
Quote: WizardI thought the god of the New Testament was supposed to be big on forgiveness, but this seems terribly unforgiving to me.
Wow, Wiz. You just hit a chord with something I read, just yesterday:
Quote:I won't inflict on you all my reasons for drawing away from the fold. They were clichéd, anyway, and not altogether innocent. Enough to say I started reading books Mole hadn't recommended. Some of them seemed pretty smart—and didn't jibe with the Bible. The defensive theodicy he'd drilled into me during those nights of heady exegesis developed cracks. The hell stuff: I never made peace with it. Human beings were capable of forgiving those who'd done them terrible wrongs, and we all agreed that human beings were maggots compared with God, so what was His trouble, again? I looked around and saw people who'd never have a chance to come to Jesus; they were too badly crippled. Didn't they deserve—more than the rest of us, even—to find His succor, after this life?
Read More: Upon This Rock
It is a fascinating essay, one of the best I've read in years; the writer attends the Creation Christian music festival.
Quote: Scotty71Ummm- I think you will get some interesting comments on this one, what with 10 virgins and all.
I heard that they weren't "virgins" but "raisins", or is that the Koran and that promise for those guys who flew into the WTC towers? (I think they feel kind of short-changed now!)
Ten California raisins after one guy? Truth is stranger than fiction!
What I do think is extraordinary about it is how it invites personal introspection. The meaning is so obvious that it turns away any attempts at looking inside of it, and instead forces the reader/listener to look at how it applies to his or her own life. the invitation is to make living in the spirit of the lord a way of life, something natural and organic. Jesus is saying, "Don't study my teachings; LIVE my teachings."
Quote: WizardI thought the god of the New Testament was supposed to be big on forgiveness, but this seems terribly unforgiving to me.
I think the problem is that we think God is not forgiving because there are people locked outside who did not know Him. We ask ourselves I'd let them in out of the goodness of my heart why won't God, what is His problem? God forgives us always, he loves us totally, but there is something else at work here. He loves us enough to respect our free will and the choices we make along with their consequences. If you don't buy the oil, if you aren't interested and invested in making your light shine in the darkness outside than what is God to do? Drag you into the wedding feast kicking and screaming? The choices we make in this life have consequences, we recognize that and are okay with it. Why do we get uncomfortable when the choices we make in this life have consequences in the next? God is constantly remnding us to trim our lights and keep our resivors of oil full, if we don't listen there will be a time when it becomes too late to dash off to the store and get some. As I mentioned before sometimes I wish God would force me to do what he asks of me, but he loves us too much for that. He created us with the power to freely make our choices and take responsibility for our decisions. I agree that this is not as sweet and full of butterflies as when we say God loves us and doesn't care what we do because we are all going to Heaven. The sobering challenge of the Gospel is that God loves us and cares tremendously about what we do because it is those choices we make that make all the difference!
Quote: FrGambleIf you don't buy the oil, if you aren't interested and invested in making your light shine in the darkness outside than what is God to do? Drag you into the wedding feast kicking and screaming?
I admit that I don't buy into what to me seems like a fairy tale. So, please tell me what the bible says awaits me for exercising the skepticism I was born with after I die.
Yes, the bible clearly endorses polygamy and the taking of concubines. That however is a discussion for another thread.Quote: NareedSo the groom went off with five virgins. Does this mean the Bible endorses polygamy ?
Quote: NareedSo the groom went off with five virgins. Does this mean the Bible endorses polygamy ?
They were going trick-or-treating because that one guy will only give candy to virgins!
I think this has more to do with the times... I dont know enough about Old Jewish customs but I imagine polygamy was common. But polygamy doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of this parable from what I can tell.
Quote: WizardI admit that I don't buy into what to me seems like a fairy tale. So, please tell me what the bible says awaits me for exercising the skepticism I was born with after I die.
If by skepticism you mean a pursuit for truth and a desire to help others then I think that is a sure path towards God in this life and the next. If you mean a consistent and persistent decision on your part to not consider the possibility that there is more to this life than meets the eye and to live only for this world taking and grabbing all around you in a selfish and maddening pursit for fleeting pleasure than I would be worried. Wiz, I am not worried about you and I don't think you should be either. Keep pursing knowledge and the good bet and you can't lose.
One more thing about this issue. God knows us better than ourselves, there might be very real obstacles to belief in our lives that stem from our past experiences, our environment, etc. God understands them even if we don't. God does not hold that which would make faith difficult if not impossible against us and could surprisingly welcome us to the wedding feast, a feast that through no fault of our own we did not know about or could not come to realize.
Quote: Scotty71But polygamy doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of this parable from what I can tell.
Please. The prepared virgins are "rewarded" by becoming the property of a man. It has everything to do with it.
BTW 10th Commandment: thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
In other words, married women are property.
Quote: FrGambleIf you mean a consistent and persistent decision on your part to not consider the possibility that there is more to this life than meets the eye and to live only for this world taking and grabbing all around you in a selfish and maddening pursit for fleeting pleasure than I would be worried.
I don't seen any evidence that this has anything to do with
1) religion, in that the attitude "[living] only for this world taking and grabbing all around you in a selfish and maddening pursit for fleeting pleasure" is not limited to (nor the only reason for existence for) non-Christians or atheists,
and 2) the original topic.
The parable is a good one for all, Christians and non Christians alike. One could do a lot worse than living according to the teachings of Jesus. Again, I'm drawn to what Sullivan writes:
Quote:Statistically speaking, my bout with Evangelicalism was probably unremarkable. For white Americans with my socioeconomic background (middle to upper-middle class), it's an experience commonly linked to one's teens and moved beyond before one reaches 20. These kids around me at Creation—a lot of them were like that. How many even knew who Darwin was? They'd learn. At least once a year since college, I'll be getting to know someone, and it comes out that we have in common a high school "Jesus phase." That's always an excellent laugh. Except a phase is supposed to end—or at least give way to other phases—not simply expand into a long preoccupation.
Bless those who've been brainwashed by cults and sent off for deprogramming. That makes it simple: You put it behind you. But this group was no cult. They persuaded; they never pressured, much less threatened. Nor did they punish. A guy I brought into the group—we called him Goog—is still a close friend. He leads meetings now and spends part of each year doing pro bono dental work in Cambodia. He's never asked me when I'm coming back.
My problem is not that I dream I'm in hell or that Mole is at the window. It isn't that I feel psychologically harmed. It isn't even that I feel like a sucker for having bought it all. It's that I love Jesus Christ.
"The latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose." I can barely write that. He was the most beautiful dude. Forget the Epistles, forget all the bullying stuff that came later. Look at what He said. Read The Jefferson Bible. Or better yet, read The Logia of Yeshua, by Guy Davenport and Benjamin Urrutia, an unadorned translation of all the sayings ascribed to Jesus that modern scholars deem authentic. There's your man. His breakthrough was the aestheticization of weakness. Not in what conquers, not in glory, but in what's fragile and what suffers—there lies sanity. And salvation. "Let anyone who has power renounce it," he said. "Your father is compassionate to all, as you should be." That's how He talked, to those who knew Him.
Why should He vex me? Why is His ghost not friendlier? Why can't I just be a good Enlightenment child and see in His life a sustaining example of what we can be, as a species?
Because once you've known Him as God, it's hard to find comfort in the man. The sheer sensation of life that comes with a total, all-pervading notion of being—the pulse of consequence one projects onto even the humblest things—the pull of that won't slacken.
And one has doubts about one's doubts.
Does one have to believe in a god to follow Christ?
Quote: FrGambleIf you mean a consistent and persistent decision on your part to not consider the possibility that there is more to this life than meets the eye and to live only for this world taking and grabbing all around you in a selfish and maddening pursit for fleeting pleasure than I would be worried. Wiz, I am not worried about you and I don't think you should be either. Keep pursing knowledge and the good bet and you can't lose.
Wow! That is really not what I was expecting. I guess I did not know Catholicism nearly as well as I thought. Thank you very much. The average protestant would say I am surely bound to burn in hell eternally, so the contrast is very refreshing.
I assume that you speak only for your God. As an ordained minister myself, I can guarantee that God does NOT know us better than we know ourselves. That platitude is pure hogwash.Quote: FrGambleOne more thing about this issue. God knows us better than ourselves, there might be very real obstacles to belief in our lives that stem from our past experiences, our environment, etc. God understands them even if we don't. God does not hold that which would make faith difficult if not impossible against us and could surprisingly welcome us to the wedding feast, a feast that through no fault of our own we did not know about or could not come to realize.
Quote: FrGambleAny other reflections and or comments on the parable for this weekend? Thanks.
Okay, here is one. For those who follow the Spanish Word of the Day, you can tell I have a lot of pet peeves when it comes to language. In this case, what is the difference between a groom and a bridegroom? Nobody ever says "bridegroom" in every conversation. The only time I seem to see the word is in the bible and Shakespeare plays.
If there is a difference between groom and bridegroom, please explain to me what it is. If not, I get it that the languages changes all the time, and that bridegroom could have just changed into groom. I'm fine with that. What I don't get is why modern bible translations like the NIV continue to use the word bridegroom.
I understand that in quoting a bible passage you have to stay true to the original text. However, in your sermon, I hope you'll remember your pal the Wiz, and use the term "groom."
Quote: Isaiah 62:5, NIV...as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you.
I'm assuming that the bridegroom is Jesus. And the message is to always be prepared for Him, as he can reappear at any time. "For you know neither the day nor the hour" stresses the importance of the moment. Jesus turns them away because they were not prepared.
Really, you also have to connect this to Chapter 24, Verses 36 - 44, as the gravitas of this parable connects to Judgement Day and the Homily in question. The parable is about Jesus' reappearance and that you have to be ready to meet Him.
Quote: Matthew 24:36-4436 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
So, for gods sake, go find that flashlight and put some D batteries in there, for Christ's sakes!
Yes. It would be easier to cherrypick which instructions to adopt, but following Christ requires an, "All In" commitment.Quote: MoscaDoes one have to believe in a god to follow Christ?
My grades in school have always been pretty good but I always had one big problem in school. I constantly was falling asleep in class. I would try everything. I’d purposely sit in the front row, but that just got me in more trouble because it was easier for the professor to see me. I found inventive was to prop my head up with my hands and still make it look like I was listening and taking notes. In Rome the situation got worse because the classes were in Italian and for most of my first year it sounded like I had Charlie Browns’ teacher, “Wah, wah, bawh, bah, …” We also were in an old lecture hall with about 200 people in it. Every break I would get a cappuccino or a double espresso, I even discovered these wonderful little candies called “pocket coffee” – chocolate with an espresso center, yummm. Nothing worked. At some point in class I would always start drifting away with a very noticeable head nod. Half way through the semester I began to notice that many of the Italians on the other side of the room were starting at me. It turns out they were all taking bets as to when I would fall asleep. It was embarrassing and I tried to fight it. However, nothing was as embarrassing as the class when in my valiant fight to stay awake I jerked myself from sleep and with an involuntary muscle spasm threw my pen about ten rows behind me hitting some poor young religious sister in the head. The Italians couldn’t control their laughing and the professor couldn’t help but notice - that was not good.
All this is to say that I identify with the virgins who fall asleep as they await the groom. They are doing something important; they are waiting for Wisdom personified in the groom who represents Christ. They love and are seeking wisdom like in the first reading. I was trying to do the same thing and seek after wisdom in those classes, but we all fall asleep. However, when they wake up five of them are ready for the groom and five are not. The five wise ones had plenty of oil, the five foolish were not prepared.
The first question we might ask is why don’t the wise virgins share their oil, are they being gluttons? Or why don’t they just pair off or group together and share the light? From all the way back to the Rabbinic Midrash up through St. Augustine this oil is understood as a symbol of our good works. You see it is not enough to pursue wisdom and then fall asleep and expect to pass the test. I definitely fell asleep in class but I woke up and worked hard staying awake for hours on end in the library for those good grades. When you are awake you’ve got to study, sacrifice your time, and your treasure. It takes hard work to truly be ready for that test. When we are talking about the wisdom that comes from faith it is not enough to just believe. This faith has to make a difference in your life. It has to change you. Faith manifests itself in good works, in service to God and neighbor, this is the oil that keeps your light lit. This is how your light shines for others to see. This is how others get to know God, through your loving care for them. If you don’t build up this special store of oil, how will others see the light of Christ and how will Christ know you as one of his followers. You can’t give this type of oil to someone else; they have to do it on their own.
You heard me mention a test. At the end of every semester there is a test. When we fall asleep for the last time in death, there will be a test. The cry will awaken us that Christ is here. It will be too late at that point to go out and get more oil.
It’s okay to fall asleep; it is guaranteed to happen to all of us. The important question to ask is: when we are awake during this semester we call life how are we doing in preparing for the final exam? Are we doing enough to make our light shine brightly in the world so that others may see God and His love through us? Are we preparing for the one whom we love and truly seeking after wisdom by living according to His great commandments?
Okay you can all wake up now, the homily is over.
Quote: NareedPlease. The prepared virgins are "rewarded" by becoming the property of a man. It has everything to do with it.
BTW 10th Commandment: thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
In other words, married women are property.
The bridegroom is G_D in the parable. The virgins represent G_D's children (people). If you take it too literal you become a crazy religious zelot or end up living with the sister wives.
Anyone think I'm wrong about that meaning?
Quote: Scotty71Anyone think I'm wrong about that meaning?
Beats me.
How do you determine the meaning? As far as I can see you can assign any meaning that fits your purpose, and there's no rational way to argue about it.
Quote: Nareed
In other words, married women are property.[/q
Yes, in 30 AD / 2BC or whatever they were definitely property. You were raised Jewish I believe, ever spend anytime around Orthodox women & men... not too different from some Christian sects (like Pentecostals) other than the Orthodox women are usually much better educated.when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because." — E.E. Cummings
Quote: Scotty71Yes, in 30 AD / 2BC or whatever they were definitely property. You were raised Jewish I believe, ever spend anytime around Orthodox women & men... not too different from some Christian sects (like Pentecostals) other than the Orthodox women are usually much better educated.
Can you repeat that in a way that's easy to understand? You seem to be either asking a question or making a statement, I'm not sure which, then you go on to something that doesn't seem to be related. Are you talking about orthodox Jews, or Eastern Rites Orthodox Catholics/Christians (whatever they're called). In either case I see no point made or question asked at all.
Quote: FrGambleI constantly was falling asleep in class.
I wouldn't mention sleep in a sermon. No use encouraging natural tendencies.
Quote: AyecarumbaYes. It would be easier to cherrypick which instructions to adopt, but following Christ requires an, "All In" commitment.
You said it, not me. Are you prepared for this statement to play against you, or is it just a platitude over which you claim a kind of monopoly and with which to "judge" others? Do you comprehend the unpredictable cost your affirmation may impose upon you?
4 languages, has a job in the Vatican, has a radio show, and is a
regular on Fox/News. He has the looks of a movie star on top of all
that.
