Doc
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August 16th, 2018 at 8:52:32 PM permalink
I have just had an unusual experience in purchasing a new car. I thought it might interest/amuse some of you.

My wife and I had been considering various options for a replacement car and had spoken with sales reps at dealerships representing three manufacturers. On Sunday 8/5, we signed a contract to purchase a Honda. The vehicle with the exact combination of features we wanted was listed as being in transit to the dealership, with an expected arrival between 8/7 and 8/9. I advised them that we would be departing on a short Florida vacation on 8/9, and we did.

While we were in Florida, I received a call confirming that the vehicle had arrived and would be prepped and ready for us when we returned home. We arrived home late on 8/13 and went to the dealership the next afternoon to close the deal.

At the closing, two very minor discrepancies appeared. First, the declared selling price of the vehicle had increased from the figures presented to me on 8/5 by a grand total of 23 cents! I asked the salesman (called a “Sales Consultant” at this dealership) and Finance Manager how the heck the price could go up by that amount, but I never got a straight answer to that question. I wasn’t particularly concerned about the $0.23, but the existence of a change at that point seemed like a puzzler to me.

Second, in completing the purchase documentation, I signed a form where I acknowledged that the odometer reading at the time of purchase was an even 80 miles – I hadn’t checked it myself, but that’s what they said it was. Twenty minutes or so later when I sat in the parked car and was receiving explanations on how to operate the gazillion electronic features that I had never had on a car before, I noticed that the odometer read 99 miles. I pointed out this discrepancy to the Sales Consultant, and he asked, “Is that a deal breaker?” I told him it wasn’t but that I was just curious as to who had gone for a 19-mile joy ride while I was either in Florida or was in the Finance Manager’s office signing paperwork. He made up some tale that I didn’t believe, but I let it slide. I wasn’t really concerned about the 19 miles much more than the 23 cents.

I traded in my previous vehicle, had made my down payment on the car using my credit card, and then paid the balance in full with a check for $23,500; i.e., no financing/lien. Earlier that day, I had transferred funds to my checking account to cover that check. I also signed an authorization allowing the dealership to process the check electronically.

That was on 8/14, and mid-day on 8/15 I received a call from a Finance Administrator at the dealership. She said that they had just discovered that they “might” have processed my check electronically not the expected once but twice! I checked my on-line banking records and said that there was not yet any indication that the charge had come through even once. I told her that I did not carry an adequate balance in my checking account to cover an extra $23,500 charge, so something needed to be straightened out and quickly. She said the dealership would try to get any second charge pulled back (if it really existed) and that they would pay any resulting overdraft fees. I followed up that call with one to my bank to advise them of the possible problem, and we discussed appropriate ways to deal with it. The bank representative assured me that they had no indication yet of a charge coming through at all.

This morning, 8/16, I checked my on-line banking and found that my account was overdrawn by almost $19,000. I called the Finance Administrator and reported that their “oops!” had hit the fan. I also reported that I had been reviewing the documentation that I had been given when closing the purchase and realized that I did not have copies of several important documents that I had signed. She agreed to have copies of all of the documents available for me to pick up, and she said that she would have a check from the dealership in the amount of $23,500 for me to pick up at the same time to cover their double charge.

I called my bank again, described the situation, and said I wasn’t at all sure that picking up such a check was a proper way to resolve the matter. The bank rep agreed and said that she would set it up to have the duplicate charge rejected and sent back to the dealership.

I went to the dealership to pick up the missing documents and to tell them to hold that check until I decided whether I should pick it up. I talked to the Finance Administrator (who may not really be much more than a clerk), and she introduced me to a Finance Manager (one of several at the dealership, and a different one than I had worked with at the time of closing the purchase.)

I told that manager about the two minor discrepancies noted above (23 cents and 19 miles). I then told her that double-processing my check and grossly overdrawing my account was not a minor issue at all and could cause me a number of problems. We then went over the purchase transaction and documentation in some detail, and more discrepancies appeared. For one thing, their computer records of the transaction reported a different Sales Consultant and different Finance Manager than the ones who were really involved in the transaction. That seems to be an internal problem at the dealership (possibly involving a salesman getting screwed out of a commission), but it didn’t seem to represent any skin off my nose.

However, another major discrepancy soon raised its ugly head. It seems that the vehicle that they sold me was not the vehicle that I had contracted to purchase! It had all of the features I was expecting, so I hadn’t noticed the problem, but it had a different Vehicle Identification Number.

That discovery initiated a bit of a scramble around the dealership to find out what had happened to the vehicle I had contracted to purchase and what vehicle I had really been driving around. Once again, I was given a tale that could be true, but it wasn’t really convincing. The story went something like how inventory gets moved around between dealerships, and sometimes they have to make changes as to which vehicle gets delivered to a customer. If that happens, the salesman is supposed to advise the buyer in advance of the situation, but that was not the case between my salesman and me. When we finally got copies of all of the purchase documents in front of us, it became evident that the VIN and stock number had been changed on several documents, very likely after I had signed them, because I don’t recall any such numbers having been lined out and handwritten over at the time I was signing.

I had great difficulty believing that an established dealership, one selling cars every day, could screw a transaction up to this extent. But they did. (The Finance Manager assured me that this was not the usual way they conducted business and that they did have a set of checklists to assure that everything was handled appropriately and completely. Except it wasn’t.)

I expressed my displeasure with the way the transaction was handled, but I kept the vehicle and left the dealership with the documentation that I felt I should have had in the first place. I called my insurance agent and reported that the vehicle that I had really purchased did not have the VIN that I had reported to them earlier, based on the preliminary documentation. The insurance agent was as surprised as I was that such a thing could happen at a dealership.

Over these next few days, I will be monitoring my bank account to see how this mess progresses. I will also be interested to check the title and registration that I receive from the DMV to see what vehicle they think I purchased.

Has anyone else experienced such a screw-up by a new car dealership?
FleaStiff
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August 16th, 2018 at 9:17:28 PM permalink
You are right about the inflated job titles.
Cars come mainly from Car Brokers inventory and dealer's inventory.
Dealerships often try to shop around for a different vehicle (ie, a cheaper one) and use that to fulfill their commitment to you but are indeed supposed to get a signature on the correct VIN. The dealership keeps the price difference, of course.
They will nick a salesman's commission to get a deal to go thru.

I know someone who lives near an unmarked building that is a car broker's inventory. Video cameras EVERYWHERE. Just one side of the building has at least ten cameras aimed at the neighborhood.
beachbumbabs
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August 17th, 2018 at 5:09:10 AM permalink
Yes, I think they're screwing with you.

Yes, they need to reverse the transaction and repay you immediately for the duplicate charge. Check is not enough.

Yes, they needed to be honest with you, that they had not delivered the exact car that you contracted for, and attempted a cover-up rather than potentially have you cancel the sale.

It matters a lot that they gave you a VIN in advance that you gave your insurance company. It matters a lot that they ran the charge twice, which shows on YOUR bank account. And it matters that there were a half-dozen things wrong and they asked you to accept them rather than making it right. It matters a LOT that you signed acceptance of an odometer stmt and then got a car that didn't match it. In Florida, that's a felony, fwiw.

Mosca is in that business for a long time now. I would suggest you PM him and ask him to look at this and discuss it in detail. He's good people.

IMO they owe you the CARFAX on both cars. That second one might have been titled and returned with problems, or for any number of other reasons. Might not match, feature for feature, what you paid for. Could technically be a used car, for which you paid a new car price/premium. Could even have been in an accident and repaired in those first few miles. Could have been a demo model in another dealership. All of that takes residual value off a car.
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onenickelmiracle
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August 17th, 2018 at 5:48:42 AM permalink
BBB said it best, I agree with her 100%.
I am a robot.
Mosca
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August 17th, 2018 at 5:49:19 AM permalink
The VIN error does happen, but it is rare. Maybe once every 5-10 years I’ve had it happen. Last one I remember was 2006. Carelessness is always the reason: someone writes something down, then it changes and no one tells anyone else. In my last one it was two exactly identical cars, the salesperson had the wrong one cleaned and gassed without checking the VIN plate. The stock numbers were almost the same, like 1344 and 1334, something like that. I saw it happen once where no one discovered it for almost a year (not my deal). Big PITA to fix, two pissed off customers. Glad it wasn’t me.

Had a customer trading in a leased truck a couple years ago, the VIN on the truck didn’t match the VIN on the contract. THREE YEARS. The truck he was driving was much nicer than the one he was paying for, it was a premium package and he was contracted for a base. We couldn’t make the deal because of the error, legally he wasn’t contracted for that vehicle.

The 23 cents? I would take a quarter out of my desk drawer and offer it to the customer.

The 19 miles, who knows. It’s probably related to the VIN error. I doubt anyone was joyriding your car. There are lots of other cars.

I had the credit card error within the last year, but in the other direction. Customer left a sizable deposit on a card, then came in with a check. When I refunded the deposit, the card terminal refunded it twice. The first time through it hung up. I did a batch close, it wasn’t on the ticket so I ran it again. That took almost a month to fix, but the people were really nice and helped a lot with phone calls to the bank and such.

They’re not trying to screw you though, they just screwed up. There’s really no reason to screw you in that way. There’s no way to turn that particular error into money. Hondas don’t come from brokers, they come from Honda. If this one had a lower invoice than another one, who cares, they’re both getting sold and the net is the same. Most new car salesmen don’t work on commission any more, it’s salary and flat per unit.

I would guess, given that the cars are physically identical and there was a different salesperson’s name on the deal, that someone grabbed the wrong folder when you showed up. That would explain all the discrepancies, including the mileage and the 23 cents. The papers in the system say one thing, the stuff you signed says another.
A falling knife has no handle.
Joeman
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August 17th, 2018 at 6:01:52 AM permalink
That's nuts, Doc! I have heard of dealer shenanigans, but nothing like this. I've got to agree with everything Babs said above. I'd also be curious if they broke any laws by cashing your check twice.

Also, since it was a different vehicle altogether than the one you agreed to purchase, I would want to verify that it has all the same trim & options that you thought you were getting on the original car.

The last car I bought (a Honda for Mrs. Joeman), I similarly brought the check for the amount we agreed upon to the dealership. When I got there, they said they had made an error in my favor, and I was actually due a few dollars back!

In my case, I was quoted an 'out the door' price, but it seems for the billing form that they fill out on the computer, they have to back out the base sales price, and all the other charges are added automatically to get the total. My guess is that they don't always get their math spot-on.
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Mosca
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August 17th, 2018 at 6:16:41 AM permalink
Again, no one is trying to screw anyone. A lot of people probably got their asses reamed for this. And fixing their mistake is interfering with their future profitability, and taking up time they could be doing something else. No one wants to look backwards in this business, it’s always look ahead.
A falling knife has no handle.
RenoGambler
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August 17th, 2018 at 7:30:08 AM permalink
VIN error definitely happens. I had a dealership send me off the lot in the wrong car once (a nicer one than I paid for). It took several weeks to straighten it out... after which I promptly totaled the car and had to go through the whole car purchase process again...
Variance giveth and variance taketh away.
MrV
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August 17th, 2018 at 7:55:27 AM permalink
Good help is hard to find.

Legally, I suppose you could argue that a breach of contract occurred and that you want to undo the deal, but it seems that is not your desire; plus you appear to have ratified and accepted the errors.

So your realistic option is to just suck up their stupidity and drive off into the sunset.
"What, me worry?"
EdCollins
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August 17th, 2018 at 8:33:42 AM permalink
You have more patience than I do. After the VIN discrepancy, I suspect I probably would have walked and politely taken my business elsewhere. And as I'm walking out the door they MIGHT have been able to change my mind... if they reduced the price of the vehicle by a couple of thousand, as a penalty for their screw-ups.
Ayecarumba
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August 17th, 2018 at 9:58:44 AM permalink
I have experienced a dealer deliver a new car with a different trim package than what was agreed on. It turned into a pretty big brewhaha.

The inventory system has a lag built into it. There could have been another customer closing on the same model as you at another dealership, so your original car was sent there since they were closer, or not out of town. The dealer expected that another model with that trim package would be available by the time you came in to close, so win-win (for the dealer and the other guy).

Note that the Honda dealership probably doesn’t handle the financing. There is a separate subsidiary of the corporation that works out the payments for the deals fronted by the salesmen. Taxes and the various fees all have to be finalized, so the final price on the contract can vary from the salesman’s “drive-off” by even a few dollars. But double charging your account is a human error. The e-check system freaks out when large sums are involved. Usually, phone calls verifying transactions are required. I would assume the error would have been caught there. Your state may have consumer protection laws that provide remedies to you in this circumstance, including penalties to the overcharging company. It is unfortunate that they tried to cover the mistake by writing a check rather than sending the credit electronically (and incurring a fee). If it’s good one way, it ought to work the other way too. On the other hand, you would need to authorize them to access your account to make the deposit, and I don’t know how you feel about them monkeying around in there when they already left it in shambles once.

I don’t know if the laws where you live are different, but it is my understanding that a car can still be considered “new” even with some mileage on it. This accounts for moving it around, and test drives, but there is a limit. I wonder if the 80 mile figure on the statement is that max where you live? Beyond that limit they can’t call the car “new”, but I don’t think it would have to be labled “used” either.

I hope you get something for your trouble. Free oil changes or wiper blades at least.
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djatc
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August 17th, 2018 at 11:00:56 AM permalink
Car salesman are worse than HR
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billryan
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August 17th, 2018 at 11:36:17 AM permalink
Mistakes happen.
While shopping, I put a deposit down on a car, via credit card. I wasn't sure I wanted the car but was told that to negotiate the best price I had to put a fully refundable $500 deposit down. Once I did, the attitude changed completely. Turned out the price was only if I financed through their lender, where I was a cash buyer. Their financing was a few points higher, but I was told the exact figures wouldn't be available until I was ready to sign. There was another problem with something and I decided to bail.
They sent me to another person, supposedly to authorize the refund, but he was a high pressure closer intent on closing the deal.
It was really frustrating and argumentative, but I left with the promise the money would be refunded overnight. It wasn't.
Two phone calls and I'm told the refund has been issued. A call to the CC company says differently. More arguing and frustration.
They insist the money was refunded, I'm showing them the account on line with a debit, but no credit. They issue a new refund. We part on less than pleasant conditions. Let's just say we won't be exchanging Christmas Cards.
Several days later, I get a phone call from the dealership. I'm thinking it's an apology but it's a low level employee telling me they accidentally refunded the card twice and the company will now be requesting a refund. The conversation was going nowhere so I just hung up.
In my personal experience,most car salesmen stink. Car shopping is really a hunt for a good salesman. They aren't as rare as a unicorn, but they are as elusive as snipes. When I finally found a good salesman, he didn't have a car I wanted.
Six months goes by and Mazda redid the Six line. I'm impressed with the new design and then I see a red one on the road. I never cared for red cars but Mazda had a shade call Soul Red that made my day.
Called the salesman, asked if he had any red ones. More frustration as all the early releases were the Grand Touring package that added $3500 to the price for a gazillion gadgets I didn't need, heated seats, 24 speakers, XM radio., etc.
He says it will be at least two months before any red Sport models are due. I tell him I want the first red Sport package he gets and will give him a deposit. A month later, I have my car. Four months later, I got a Christmas card.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
RonC
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August 17th, 2018 at 12:20:59 PM permalink
I order a car fairly well loaded from a dealership.

The car arrived and I went to pick it up.

The car was not on the lot. The owner's wife liked the look of it when it came off the truck and decided to use it.

It had 199 miles on it when it got back to the dealership.

Last time I bought a car from a personal friend--though he had nothing to do with that, I did not want to walk away from a deal with him.
MaxPen
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August 17th, 2018 at 12:46:42 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Mistakes happen.
While shopping, I put a deposit down on a car, via credit card. I wasn't sure I wanted the car but was told that to negotiate the best price I had to put a fully refundable $500 deposit down. Once I did, the attitude changed completely. Turned out the price was only if I financed through their lender, where I was a cash buyer. Their financing was a few points higher, but I was told the exact figures wouldn't be available until I was ready to sign. There was another problem with something and I decided to bail.
They sent me to another person, supposedly to authorize the refund, but he was a high pressure closer intent on closing the deal.
It was really frustrating and argumentative, but I left with the promise the money would be refunded overnight. It wasn't.
Two phone calls and I'm told the refund has been issued. A call to the CC company says differently. More arguing and frustration.
They insist the money was refunded, I'm showing them the account on line with a debit, but no credit. They issue a new refund. We part on less than pleasant conditions. Let's just say we won't be exchanging Christmas Cards.
Several days later, I get a phone call from the dealership. I'm thinking it's an apology but it's a low level employee telling me they accidentally refunded the card twice and the company will now be requesting a refund. The conversation was going nowhere so I just hung up.
In my personal experience,most car salesmen stink. Car shopping is really a hunt for a good salesman. They aren't as rare as a unicorn, but they are as elusive as snipes. When I finally found a good salesman, he didn't have a car I wanted.
Six months goes by and Mazda redid the Six line. I'm impressed with the new design and then I see a red one on the road. I never cared for red cars but Mazda had a shade call Soul Red that made my day.
Called the salesman, asked if he had any red ones. More frustration as all the early releases were the Grand Touring package that added $3500 to the price for a gazillion gadgets I didn't need, heated seats, 24 speakers, XM radio., etc.
He says it will be at least two months before any red Sport models are due. I tell him I want the first red Sport package he gets and will give him a deposit. A month later, I have my car. Four months later, I got a Christmas card.



You actually missed a really great opportunity here. Dealers that are willing to negotiate vehicle price for financing terms are the best when buying a vehicle. Even better if they apply the same to extended warranties, their Gap insurance, etc. I look for this when buying vehicles. I raped Towbin Dodge in Henderson this way. I managed to get a 40k Dodge Charger R/T and a 37.5K Ram Diesel out the door with taxes and first year taxes paid at 58k my cost out of pocket. If the deal would have stayed as originally structured my cost over 7 years would have been north of a 100k out of pocket. If I had simply portrayed myself as a cash buyer I would not have gotten the deal done for less than 65k most likely 68k and I most certainly would not have had my first year registration fees paid which was worth approximately 1k.
Dealerships make very little on the vehicle itself. Most of their money is made in the finance office thru the marking up of interest rates, warranty protection plan sales, gap insurance plan sales, and other add ons. The key to screwing them is to know exactly what they have to work with. I.e. Warranty plans usually only cost the dealership 40-60 % of what they are selling them for. You should know what your market interest rate is based on your credit number. Then you can figure what the terms they are trying to sell you is worth to them. The longer the term the more it is worth to them. Gap insurance is another 50% markup item based on their first quote.
So what I do is become there dream huckleberry. I have no concern over monthly payments or any other nonsense. The only concern I have is the bottom line vehicle price. I don't want the regular extended warranty for 2k I want the one they are afraid to pitch at 4k and other such things. I think you can see where I am going with this. As this stuff gets sold I am continually enthusiastic about the offering but looking for a better vehicle price to get in total agreement.😉 You have to play them like they are trying to play you and let their greed take over. Example normal 2 k warranty means 1k in dealership pocket. 4K warranty means 2.5k in dealership pocket. I really want the 4 k one but need a 1000 off the vehicle in order to make it happen. On and on this game goes. I usually start reeling in the salesman at 2 in the afternoon and myself the huckleberry gets turned over to the finance guy at around 4 as the biggest lollipop that ever walked thru the door. Then it's on and we are not finishing until around 10PM, but the guy is going to go home thinking he just made a down payment on a swimming pool tonight. He is going to be promising the salesman dinner for sticking thru to the end after closing and the detailer out back as well.
The shit is going to hit the fan with the general manager when I come back in the next day to pay off the contract minus the warranty, Gap insurance, etc. and they realize they are thousands below what they paid for the vehicles. You can only do this once per dealership and really have to have someone helping you that has not been led down this path before. I guess you can say that I am now 86'd at the home of the Blue Genie. Desert 215 is my next new target as soon as they get these Diesel Jeeps readily available.😃
Last edited by: MaxPen on Aug 17, 2018
VCUSkyhawk
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August 17th, 2018 at 12:53:27 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

I order a car fairly well loaded from a dealership.

The car arrived and I went to pick it up.

The car was not on the lot. The owner's wife liked the look of it when it came off the truck and decided to use it.

It had 199 miles on it when it got back to the dealership.

Last time I bought a car from a personal friend--though he had nothing to do with that, I did not want to walk away from a deal with him.



Friend or no, I would ask for so amount rebate for that. It seems petty, but it is the principle of the thing.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
DRich
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August 17th, 2018 at 1:02:19 PM permalink
MaxPen is 100% right when dealing with dealerships. Never be a cash buyer.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
djatc
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August 17th, 2018 at 1:19:42 PM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

😃



Can we get a hall of fame post nomination for this TLDR I actually read?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
billryan
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August 17th, 2018 at 1:48:46 PM permalink
It was about five years ago, so I may well be mistaken but I think the loan contract had a pretty large early payoff penalty. I think it was $995 for a first year payoff.
I was also pretty naive at the time having only bought two new cars in some thirty years.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
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August 17th, 2018 at 1:51:51 PM permalink
Simple solution appears to be to hire Max to do my negotiations. I wonder if buyers agents is a big business. Sounds like I could have used one.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AZDuffman
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August 17th, 2018 at 3:17:23 PM permalink
To me it all comes down to dealers these days are not set up to have you pick up a car a few days later like back in the day. Today it is all about volume. My guess is someone mixed up 2 nearly identical deals. That is why the $0.23, the 19 miles, and all the rest. Two near identical contracts on someone's desk, someone trained on sales volume not proper paperwork.

Shop elsewhere in 5 years.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
RS
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August 17th, 2018 at 4:20:38 PM permalink
I'd be interested to hear what their reasoning was for the 23c and 19m differences.
Doc
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August 18th, 2018 at 2:57:53 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I'd be interested to hear what their reasoning was for the 23c and 19m differences.

Well, they never really gave specific answers that I would put any faith in. As for the $0.23, they initially claimed that the figures had not changed. Just as they did not initially give me copies of the documents that I signed at the final closing of the sale (though I got them later), they had not given me copies of the signed documents from the day that I put down my deposit and committed to purchasing the car that was "in transit." However, I did have an un-signed copy of the document, showing the $0.23 lower price. They basically brushed that aside and declined to show me the signed documents from that earlier session. As I said before, I wasn't all that concerned about 23 cents, so I let it slide.

As for the 19 miles discrepancy on the odometer, the sales "consultant" initially claimed that those miles must have been driven as part of filling the fuel tank and doing the dealer prep and checkout. I don't know whether they have their own gas pump or needed to drive the quarter mile to the nearest gas station, but I think most everything else should have been taken care of on their own lot. I can only speculate that someone took the car for a little drive, but there didn't seem to be any damage, and I let the 19-mile discrepancy slide also.

The day that I made my follow-up visit to the dealership to pick up the missing documents and talk about the double-processed check, that was when I learned about having received a vehicle with a different VIN and the discrepancies on their internal documents. My salesman was off that day, but the next morning I sent him a text to let him know what had happened and that I wasn't a happy camper. I told him that they had listed a different person as being the salesman who made the sale. I also told him that they had claimed that he was just a new employee and must not know how to handle the transaction properly, since he was supposed to tell me that a different vehicle was being delivered.

He called me and claimed he had not heard anything about that and said he was completely unaware that the vehicle he provided to me was not the one that had been stated in the original contract to purchase. He just knew that the vehicle had arrived on their lot a few days later than it was expected. He claimed that he did not know anything about the closing documents having been modified (stock number and VIN) after I signed them. He said he would talk to his General Manager, but I have not heard any more from that. The only further conversation was in a call from their Finance Director, who had been out for a few days. His only concern seemed to be whether I was planning to pick up a check that he understood was waiting for me. If I were a scammer, I might pick up that check, but I don't really need the hassle.
Last edited by: Doc on Aug 18, 2018
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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August 18th, 2018 at 4:33:59 PM permalink
Car dealers like lying, forging, and stealing. Make sure they didn't steal your deposit.
I am a robot.
Sandybestdog
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:49:32 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

MaxPen is 100% right when dealing with dealerships. Never be a cash buyer.

This is true. I loved it when the old people would come in and say “I’ll give you $xxx right now, all cash(very loud so everyone in the dealership can hear).” It was always some ridiculous offer. They would always say something like I’m giving you cash right now to get it off your lot. Wow thanks for the offer to buy this brand new car that’s been on the lot for 8 days at a $5000 loss but I think we’ll pass. But I am very impressed that you can PAY CASH for this car.
FleaStiff
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August 19th, 2018 at 5:03:55 AM permalink
Dealers make money on the financing they want the highest rate on the loan that they can get you to agree to. And they want to deliver the cheapest car they can get to meet the commitment.

Its not an honest driven industry.

Locally I've got all these tv ads about a Kia dealer taking people on cruise ships and giving them free wall tvs. He is also known to let a buyer sign a contract and then tear it up, saying pay the taxes and fees, the car is yours. Where do the buyers think he gets the money to do things like that? From his kids lemon aide stand? He makes it by selling cars at high prices.
AZDuffman
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August 19th, 2018 at 8:40:06 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Dealers make money on the financing they want the highest rate on the loan that they can get you to agree to. And they want to deliver the cheapest car they can get to meet the commitment.

Its not an honest driven industry.



Lets be fair, a good part of the problem is the buyers.

There is a YT video, a news station did a piece. Girl was buying a car. Dealer gave her a price of "x" per month as she was a finance buyer. Said she could pay only "y" per month. Dealer made the deal. Then she is on the news because to get "y" the dealer extended the financing a year.

Why is this news or bad? She said she wanted to pay "y" per month! She seemed oblivious that it is just not possible to drop the price of a car by 15-20% "just like that." She got the payment she wanted.

When I was in car loans, people were clueless. They thought that negative equity just vanished into thin air somehow. That the dealer "paid off your old loan!" One guy wanted to borrow about $25K on a $17K car, then got mad at me when I said we could not do that! When I tried to explain it, he just got madder and madder. Later that day another rep got a call after the salesman made the numbers work (I don't know how, I don't wanna know how) and the guy said I was rude or something. Meanwhile he was saying he was approved for $40K, which he was, but he did not get that he could not finance that negative equity,

Then they blame the banker and the dealer.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Doc
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August 19th, 2018 at 9:19:03 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Lets be fair, a good part of the problem is the buyers.

Other than the facts that I:
(1) accepted what the dealer had put in writing,
(2) did not examine the new car closely enough to catch that the VIN had changed, and
(3) did not verify the odometer reading before signing and agreeing with the dealer's figure,

can you tell me what parts of the problems that I described were caused by me?

Just curious on this, when buying a brand new car, do you folks always verify for yourself that the VIN plate on the vehicle matches the one that you were told you were buying? For a new car purchase, do most buyers go out and check the odometer before signing the slip to accept the dealer's figure? Maybe I'm just gullible.
Mosca
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August 19th, 2018 at 9:43:29 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

Other than the facts that I:
(1) accepted what the dealer had put in writing,
(2) did not examine the new car closely enough to catch that the VIN had changed, and
(3) did not verify the odometer reading before signing and agreeing with the dealer's figure,

can you tell me what parts of the problems that I described were caused by me?

Just curious on this, when buying a brand new car, do you folks always verify for yourself that the VIN plate on the vehicle matches the one that you were told you were buying? For a new car purchase, do most buyers go out and check the odometer before signing the slip to accept the dealer's figure? Maybe I'm just gullible.



I don’t think he was writing about you specifically; there are a lot of off-topic posts that discuss dealers in general.

Myself, I verify that the VIN matches the title and the stock number. The salespeople are required to get the VIN and the mileage directly from the car. In 30 years I’ve had that mixup twice that I can remember, and both times the salesperson shortcut that step. I CATCH that error about once a year, always pre-delivery.

Just yesterday one of the sales managers sold a car to another dealer (inside our system) that we had already sold, and that I had a deposit on. I caught it. There was one pissed off customer, but it wasn’t mine. It was a used car with a rare set of equipment, not something you could just run down to the auction and pick up another. Stuff happens. I had the title in my hand, though, and I wasn’t letting go of it.
A falling knife has no handle.
Doc
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August 19th, 2018 at 10:51:21 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I don’t think he was writing about you specifically; there are a lot of off-topic posts that discuss dealers in general.

And I have not been trying to join the crowd in dissing car dealers in general. (My upstairs neighbor worked for a car dealership some time ago, and he told me he could give me some advice on negotiations. He offered the help because he claimed that car dealers and their techniques are the most dishonest that you will ever encounter. I bought the vehicle without getting his advice any further than asking whether he liked the car he was driving, and that was because it was one of the models we were initially considering.)

I was just relating a tale about this recent incident in which I think one specific dealer made a few, perhaps-minor errors and a couple of big ones, all on one specific transaction that involved me. I realize that if I had read the documents more carefully, demanded copies of all documents at the moment I signed them, and verified such info as VIN and odometer rather than taking the dealer's word and trusting them, then almost everything could have been straightened out on the day of closing. In my previous post, I was just asking whether new car buyers generally review the dealer's work/info that carefully.

On the other hand, I don't know what I could have done to prevent them from processing my check twice.
beachbumbabs
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Moscaonenickelmiracle
August 19th, 2018 at 11:45:03 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

And I have not been trying to join the crowd in dissing car dealers in general. (My upstairs neighbor worked for a car dealership some time ago, and he told me he could give me some advice on negotiations. He offered the help because he claimed that car dealers and their techniques are the most dishonest that you will ever encounter. I bought the vehicle without getting his advice any further than asking whether he liked the car he was driving, and that was because it was one of the models we were initially considering.)

I was just relating a tale about this recent incident in which I think one specific dealer made a few, perhaps-minor errors and a couple of big ones, all on one specific transaction that involved me. I realize that if I had read the documents more carefully, demanded copies of all documents at the moment I signed them, and verified such info as VIN and odometer rather than taking the dealer's word and trusting them, then almost everything could have been straightened out on the day of closing. In my previous post, I was just asking whether new car buyers generally review the dealer's work/info that carefully.

On the other hand, I don't know what I could have done to prevent them from processing my check twice.



Well, Doc, I do verify the VIN and odometer, fwiw. Especially on a car that isn't on the lot when I buy it.

I still think they gave you very bad service and tried to cover up rather than lose the sale. So I put it on the dealer.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gamerfreak
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August 19th, 2018 at 12:21:16 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Dealers make money on the financing they want the highest rate on the loan that they can get you to agree to. And they want to deliver the cheapest car they can get to meet the commitment.


So why do so many dealers offer 0% financing?

To me that is the only reason why I'd consider purchasing new.
Mosca
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August 19th, 2018 at 12:25:52 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

And I have not been trying to join the crowd in dissing car dealers in general. (My upstairs neighbor worked for a car dealership some time ago, and he told me he could give me some advice on negotiations. He offered the help because he claimed that car dealers and their techniques are the most dishonest that you will ever encounter. I bought the vehicle without getting his advice any further than asking whether he liked the car he was driving, and that was because it was one of the models we were initially considering.)

I was just relating a tale about this recent incident in which I think one specific dealer made a few, perhaps-minor errors and a couple of big ones, all on one specific transaction that involved me. I realize that if I had read the documents more carefully, demanded copies of all documents at the moment I signed them, and verified such info as VIN and odometer rather than taking the dealer's word and trusting them, then almost everything could have been straightened out on the day of closing. In my previous post, I was just asking whether new car buyers generally review the dealer's work/info that carefully.

On the other hand, I don't know what I could have done to prevent them from processing my check twice.



Invariably, deals collect errors. Errors clump. They never get spread evenly.
A falling knife has no handle.
AZDuffman
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August 19th, 2018 at 1:12:18 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Other than the facts that I:
(1) accepted what the dealer had put in writing,
(2) did not examine the new car closely enough to catch that the VIN had changed, and
(3) did not verify the odometer reading before signing and agreeing with the dealer's figure,

can you tell me what parts of the problems that I described were caused by me?

Just curious on this, when buying a brand new car, do you folks always verify for yourself that the VIN plate on the vehicle matches the one that you were told you were buying? For a new car purchase, do most buyers go out and check the odometer before signing the slip to accept the dealer's figure? Maybe I'm just gullible.




Didnt day you. I was replying to a general post. I posted earlier imho the dealer was selling or dealing with two similar cars.

Ive only bought new once in my life. That time it had about 12 miles, most from my test drive.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
djatc
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August 19th, 2018 at 2:07:40 PM permalink
I rather just pay someone to deal with all the car buying BS that seems to come up when going to the dealership. Might just pay Maxpen in silver bullets and chinese prison cards to go haggle for me
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
OnceDear
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August 19th, 2018 at 2:19:40 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

I rather just pay someone to deal with all the car buying BS that seems to come up when going to the dealership. Might just pay Maxpen in silver bullets and chinese prison cards to go haggle for me

I think I'd get AxelWolf to be my negotiator, expect he'd get me a top of the range model at base model price and still get a free matching vehicle for himself $:o)
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MaxPen
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August 19th, 2018 at 2:24:59 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

I rather just pay someone to deal with all the car buying BS that seems to come up when going to the dealership. Might just pay Maxpen in silver bullets and chinese prison cards to go haggle for me



Sounds like a plan. Minus the prison cards. I don't need ZenKing for this mission.
Ayecarumba
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August 19th, 2018 at 8:04:12 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Other than the facts that I:
(1) accepted what the dealer had put in writing,
(2) did not examine the new car closely enough to catch that the VIN had changed, and
(3) did not verify the odometer reading before signing and agreeing with the dealer's figure,

can you tell me what parts of the problems that I described were caused by me?

Just curious on this, when buying a brand new car, do you folks always verify for yourself that the VIN plate on the vehicle matches the one that you were told you were buying? For a new car purchase, do most buyers go out and check the odometer before signing the slip to accept the dealer's figure? Maybe I'm just gullible.



It’s not on you Doc. Even if you had caught the VIN mix-up, the car on your original deal was already gone, and was not coming back.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
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