rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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April 11th, 2015 at 6:52:01 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Which all goes to my point--we have people here saying what B79 is doing as fraud. They are accusing him of something criminal; which I don't think it is. Just another way some people insult people without calling them names. If they said simply that they didn't agree with it; that would be fine. You can say he is not the type of business person you would want to use to do the work. Nah. We just toss "fraud" out there and accuse him of a criminal act.



I guess my point is that there are a finite number of ways to manipulate billings under a written contract. Most of those are fraudulent, and that's really not my fault.

Coming here and bragging about something that is highly likely to be fraudulent is no different than coming here and bragging about killing a man and saying no more about the subject - was it a military action? Self defense? murder?

B79 certainly doesn't help himself here with the other things he says either. Claiming a member of his crew died on the side of the road on a day when no road crew members in north america were killed on jobsites - as if that wasn't an easily fact-checked item. Claiming to regularly work 120 hour weeks, as if we couldn't all figure out that 120 is too close to 168 for that to be truthful. The whole bit about the MGM fire. I think we're still waiting for some simple answers about that whopper. The lies are just too stupid to generate any respect at all.

If the same level of skill is applied to the billings as is applied to the storytelling here, then it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that the billing manipulations were done carefully enough to avoid criminality.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
MrV
MrV
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April 11th, 2015 at 7:14:16 AM permalink
I'm reminded of a chestnut about *shudder* lawyers.

A lawyer dies and is being interviewed at the pearly gates by St. Peter.

St. Peter says "Wow, you are so young! Reviewing your time sheets / billable hours from the office, I thought you were at least 120."

As for whether conduct is fraudulent, see: definition

Ask yourself whether, as described, the actions in question meet the five-pronged test:

"Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result".
"What, me worry?"
RonC
RonC
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April 11th, 2015 at 7:35:33 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I'm reminded of a chestnut about *shudder* lawyers.

A lawyer dies and is being interviewed at the pearly gates by St. Peter.

St. Peter says "Wow, you are so young! Reviewing your time sheets / billable hours from the office, I thought you were at least 120."

As for whether conduct is fraudulent, see: definition

Ask yourself whether, as described, the actions in question meet the five-pronged test:

"Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result".



Why bother with all that checking out the elements of fraud...we'll just call it that and go from there.

There have been some questionable and unproven statements. That is up to B79 to answer or not answer. Either action cements his reputation.

Accusing someone of committing a crime is far different than accusing someone of not telling the whole story on a message board. Since the police and prosecutors don't even have to prove a crime (civil forfeitures, for one instance discussed here) to cause huge hassles, why toss a crime out there when none has been committed?
MrV
MrV
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April 11th, 2015 at 7:53:14 AM permalink
The problem is proving fraud.

Arguably the statements / admissions he made would go a long way toward establishing the necessary elements.

Whether calling willfully overcharging people "fraud" or "sharp billing practices" makes little difference: the act is simply wrong.

Ethics, anyone?
"What, me worry?"
RonC
RonC
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April 11th, 2015 at 7:59:21 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

The problem is proving fraud.

Arguably the statements / admissions he made would go a long way toward establishing the necessary elements.

Whether calling willfully overcharging people "fraud" or "sharp billing practices" makes little difference: the act is simply wrong.

Ethics, anyone?



Does a lawyer commit fraud by talking to three people in fifteen minutes and charging all there of them for fifteen minutes?

Is it wrong to charge one person more for a job than another for the same job if they hassled you more and made it take longer? Or if they habitually griped about even the leanest bill?

Ethics is a much different conversation than criminal acts.
RS
RS
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April 11th, 2015 at 8:08:18 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Is it wrong to charge one person more for a job than another for the same job if they hassled you more and made it take longer? Or if they habitually griped about even the leanest bill?



Why would that be wrong?
RonC
RonC
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April 11th, 2015 at 8:13:06 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Is it wrong to charge one person more for a job than another for the same job if they hassled you more and made it take longer? Or if they habitually griped about even the leanest bill?



Quote: RS

Why would that be wrong?



I don't think that it is wrong or that it is fraud.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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April 11th, 2015 at 8:17:18 AM permalink
Quote: RonC



Is it wrong to charge one person more for a job than another for the same job if they hassled you more and made it take longer? Or if they habitually griped about even the leanest bill?



If it takes longer, you can bill more hours justifiably. That's different than the manipulation that was bragged about here.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
RonC
RonC
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April 11th, 2015 at 8:48:16 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

If it takes longer, you can bill more hours justifiably. That's different than the manipulation that was bragged about here.



If the price was not a contractual agreement he can charge whatever the market will bear.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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April 11th, 2015 at 9:32:13 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

If the price was not a contractual agreement he can charge whatever the market will bear.



Agreed. And that's a big part of why work like this is bid out and governed by master contracts with the vendors who perform it.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett

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