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DeMango
DeMango
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
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July 23rd, 2010 at 10:48:57 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

I totally agree. Anyone who says cash back and other slot club benefits/offers should not be added into the play is just jealous of all the benefits video poker players can get that table players can only dream about. For every card-counting/Expert Basic Strategy BJ player struggling just to make a few thousand a month, there'a 10 times that many vp players taking advantage of opportunities because of the slot club benefits, & making 5-10 times what the table players do on a consistent basis.



This is very intersting. There may be no more than 100 pro bj players out there with incomes over 100K. That's the last I heard before I left bj21.com Of course there are a lot of recreational players, part time if you will, doing much less. So what you are saying is that there are maybe a 1000 players making 500K and up a year?? Hard to believe the casinos would allow that, look how paranoid they are about a handfull of counters.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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July 23rd, 2010 at 12:23:01 PM permalink
I think the problem is that there is no law that says that casinos have the right to bar perceived advantage players. There is a law that says any private establishment can bar any patron to their business for any reason as long as it does not violate any law (for instance if the criteria is based on race).

Being a smart player is not a category protected by any legal statute. Businesses are allowed to bar patrons because of the way they are dressed, for being drunk, for talking loudly on the cell phone, for smelling bad, etc. Casinos simply take advantage of this legal right to bar advantage players.

While the casinos may be paranoid, they are operating within their legal bounds.
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
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July 23rd, 2010 at 2:14:58 PM permalink
Quote: DeMango

This is very intersting. There may be no more than 100 pro bj players out there with incomes over 100K. That's the last I heard before I left bj21.com Of course there are a lot of recreational players, part time if you will, doing much less. So what you are saying is that there are maybe a 1000 players making 500K and up a year?? Hard to believe the casinos would allow that, look how paranoid they are about a handfull of counters.



No vp player makes anything close to $500k, and believing propped-up/marketing-influenced info from bj21 is music to SW's ears. Every time he sees such advertising he starts adding up all the profit from the stuff he sells.

No card counter is ever going to get away with making that much. If that were the case then players at $5 & $10 tables would't get hassled over counting.

It's all speculation and no one can prove what anyone else makes gambling. But in the vp world, you've got a handful of people not only claiming they beat the hell out of certain casinos year in and year out for 6 figures or even more, they publish that info and even tell us how much they've taken the slot clubs for. Obviously they all use their slot cards religiously and are tracked meticulously. None, however, are ever banned or backed off. Wouldn't these big mouths be bragging wildly about that if they were? So it's all very confusing. I just wish there were some kind of truth serum available so the rest of us could have a real barometer to go by, and as a result, know better on what to expect from our own efforts.
Mewtwo
Mewtwo
Joined: Jul 28, 2010
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July 28th, 2010 at 1:07:43 PM permalink
I am amazed at how many people feel that casinos should be able to bar APs. In most other lines of business, this would not only be unacceptable, but enough reason to have a business be shut down.

Imagine, if you will, an arcade where a skilled player is able to win tickets at a rate so that the prizes they redeem those tickets for exceeds what they spent to play the games, and then the arcade does one of three things:

*Tells the player their play is no longer welcome - this would most end up in the local news as a bad business and the backlash they got from this media story would definitely hurt their business.

*Raises the price of the higher-level prizes - this hurts everyone, skilled player or not, and it would still definitely be noticed.

*Increases the difficulty/lowers the payout of the machines that were being won on - this unfairly punishes the non-skilled players to thwart the play of a single player or select few.


Now translate that into blackjack.

Barring a player, for some reason, is considered acceptable, on the premise of "you're too good for us". At this point, you're not offering the same game to everyone as once you show that you're able to win on that game you're no longer welcome - they only want to welcome the losers.

Raising the prices of the prizes could be equated to bad rulesets in BJ - 6:5 payouts on blackjacks, dealer hitting soft 17, not being able to surrender, not being able to double on any two cards, not being able to double after a split, etc. - If they're doing this to make their games undesirable to counters, they're giving everyone else a worse game at the same time, and people will eventually get fed up with this.

Adjusting payouts on machines the counter plays could be compared to anti-counting measures - preferential shuffling, bringing in CSMs, half-shoeing, etc. - this ends up hurting the casino because the time they're taking and money they're spending to do this could be used to play more hands (instead of shuffling more).


Honestly, I don't think the casino should be able to do ANY of these things. Shuffling away a deck that favors the player intentionally, making a game uncountable, barring a player, all of these things ought to be illegal.

At least Pennsylvania has some of this right - their gaming law states that casinos MUST offer Surrender, MUST stand on Soft 17, MUST allow doubling after a split, doubling on any two cards, etc. - no casino is allowed to try and put out a H17 game or anything of the sort.

If we could take New Jersey's inability to ban counters, PA casino's inability to offer crappy ruleset, and progress from there, we might have what would pass for a proper blackjack game.



So long as the casino is not losing money - that is to say, the money they make with the house edge, plus the money they make from players making incorrect basic strategy decisions, outweighs what they lose to counters - it should be illegal for them to take countermeasures against them.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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July 28th, 2010 at 5:11:20 PM permalink
Quote: Mewtwo

At least Pennsylvania has some of this right - their gaming law states that casinos MUST offer Surrender, MUST stand on Soft 17, MUST allow doubling after a split, doubling on any two cards, etc. - no casino is allowed to try and put out a H17 game or anything of the sort.



That may be counting the chickens before they hatch. Let´s see what happens in six months and whether Pennsylvania, with its reliance on its new=found bonanza, can repel the forces of government greed and caves in to the more universal practices.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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July 28th, 2010 at 5:41:43 PM permalink
Quote: Mewtwo

I am amazed at how many people feel that casinos should be able to bar APs. In most other lines of business, this would not only be unacceptable, but enough reason to have a business be shut down.



But it does happen in other businesses. Several years ago my wife and I would eat at Old Country Buffet several times a week. At that time, they had a regular customer who was this huge fat guy who would come in at 2pm, eat and eat, linger over his dessert for a couple hours while he read a book, then get hungry and go thru the line again and again. He was eating what 4-5 regular customers ate. They finally barred him from the building. The manager told me they can do that as long as the customer was abusing the intent of what the restaurant was offering.

Casinos are enertainment venues, they aren't there for a player to make a living. Its perfectly within their rights to barr anyone trying to do that and succeeding.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
ahiromu
ahiromu
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
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July 28th, 2010 at 5:44:52 PM permalink
How can so many people here have the perception that they have the right to play blackjack? The casinos set their rules in order to maximize profits... something that we can all agree on. When setting these rules they assume, for the most part, that people aren't counting and playing the game THAT THEY FUCKING OFFER in a way that THEY FUCKING WANT IT TO BE PLAYED. When someone is counting and making this game with a reasonable negative EV into a positive EV game, this throws off their entire business model which equates into lower profits for their employees (bonuses) and shareholders... the only two people that they are accountable to. I was wrong before, this has absolutely nothing in common with kicking out blacks or native americans (racial reasons) which has happened in our past. If you can count and get away with it, more power to you. If you get caught, then hopefully you understood the risks before.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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July 29th, 2010 at 9:11:49 AM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

When someone is counting and making this game with a reasonable negative EV into a positive EV game, this throws off their entire business model which equates into lower profits for their employees (bonuses) and shareholders... the only two people that they are accountable to.



Following that line of reasoning, we might look forward to the day when casinos offer only prop bets in craps.
bluefire
bluefire
Joined: May 24, 2010
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July 29th, 2010 at 9:24:29 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Following that line of reasoning, we might look forward to the day when casinos offer only prop bets in craps.



Not really, because part of that business model is attracting players using games they want to play.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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July 29th, 2010 at 9:46:46 AM permalink
Quote: bluefire

Not really, because part of that business model is attracting players using games they want to play.


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