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MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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January 21st, 2011 at 2:53:10 PM permalink
Quote: dm

Despite all the BS you guys are spouting, counting is NOT ALLOWED at BJ. Hence, you cannot use pencil and paper. If they have reason to believe you are counting in your head, then you are NOT ALLOWED to play. So why not play something where you don't have to cheat? VP at some places?


Of course card counting is allowed. Counting is simply a combination of (a) making bets of varying sizes, which is allowed, and (b) remembering the cards, which is also allowed. What's not allowed is using a device to keep track of the probabilities in a game, which is what remembering the cards does in blackjack. So, no calculators. I'm unclear on whether using pen/paper would be "a device" according to the regulations, but in such cases, whenever there is ambiguity, it is typically resolved in favor of the casino. But to my knowledge there is no law anywhere that prohibits a player from varying their bets or remembering the cards that have been dealt.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wavy70
Wavy70
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January 21st, 2011 at 3:21:20 PM permalink
Quote: dm

Surely you can use a calculator to keep the count. Why try to keep it in your head? Counting is legal, right? Pretty dumb to try to remember it.



I think you are confused about law and casino rules. The fact is many casinos 86 people assumed to count however in many cases card counters who have sued the casino end in a settlement due to the fact that the casino knows they will lose in a court case. So NO card counting is not an illegal activity.
If you can find on the NV legal code a crime for card counting I am sure many of us would appreciate the edification.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
dm
dm
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January 21st, 2011 at 3:57:27 PM permalink
I use the term NOT ALLOWED! I think you are confused.
dm
dm
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January 21st, 2011 at 3:59:25 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

MGM Detroit knows I count and they let me play unabused. They look for the ones that make $5000+ not us smaller stakes guys and I learned that from a pit manager. I just dont play a huge spread anymore when I do play. They know I profit off of them and they dont bother me because they know they more than make up for it from the ploppies that have no idea how to play and play stupid sucker bets like perfect pairs and hi-tie. If they wanted me to leave I am sure they would tell me but they havent in 10+ years now. I consistantly split tens or double A9 vs 5 if the count is right. And when a casino puts a sign up saying that counting is not allowed, I will believe that it is not allowed. Just sounds like a jealous player that consistantly loses at the game or gambling in general. VP is for losers, plain and simple except in the rare instance you find a 100%+ payback machine. Casinos fear consistant winners, not counters, and will bar them if they can or get the chance if they feel that the player is a threat to the bottom line.



I have not a single criticism of you if that is your situation. I would love to join you.
teddys
teddys
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January 21st, 2011 at 4:01:59 PM permalink
Here is a recent decision from Indiana saying casinos have the right to exclude card counters. The Indiana Supreme Court basically relied on property rights doctirne saying casinos aren't public places and have the shopkeeper's right to exclude anyone for any reason (as long as it isn't discriminatory).

Interestingly, the appeals court, which the supreme court overturned, relied on Uston v. Resorts Intl. to say that card counting is not something casinos can bar you for, and ruled in favor of the card counter. Their decision.

I heartily disagree with the Indiana Supreme Court's decision. However, one justice dissented in the case, and I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion:

"Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators. I am not persuaded that such schemes are supported or protected by any common law right or privilege."
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wavy70
Wavy70
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January 21st, 2011 at 4:28:08 PM permalink
Quote: dm

I use the term NOT ALLOWED! I think you are confused.



I think you are the confused one. You said "Counting is legal, right?" Yes it is.
Try to remember what you say in previous posts it will make things go quicker.
The rules of the casino prohibit you from using a device to record the results. It is a rule of the establishment not a law.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 21st, 2011 at 5:07:34 PM permalink
Quote: toastcmu

Bingo. Most gaming statutes state that using an "aid" to count is prohibited. Since card counting can be done with your brain, they can't make it illegal without throwing everyone out of the casino. They will make it harder for you to count, but it's legal according to the statutes.

-B



However, if they figure out a way to identify and throw out everyone who HAS a brain, they'll do that.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 21st, 2011 at 5:09:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wavy70

I think you are the confused one. You said "Counting is legal, right?" Yes it is.
Try to remember what you say in previous posts it will make things go quicker.
The rules of the casino prohibit you from using a device to record the results. It is a rule of the establishment not a law.



Actually, in Nevada at least, it's the law. It's against the law, a felony I believe, for a player to use any kind of "device" to aid his gambling.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 21st, 2011 at 5:59:03 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

MGM Detroit knows I count and they let me play unabused. They look for the ones that make $5000+ .



So you think if you won $4000 every time you played, they would let you get away with counting? Are you serious? The truth is, if they consider you a threat to the bottom line of the table you're playing, you're history. If he told you 5K, he's jerking your chain.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Wavy70
Wavy70
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January 21st, 2011 at 8:57:00 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Actually, in Nevada at least, it's the law. It's against the law, a felony I believe, for a player to use any kind of "device" to aid his gambling.



Can you find that law and what is considered a device. A card counter uses his brain or a bad one his fingers. I have never been barred from bringing my fingers to the table.
I see many people recording the results of mini bac and roulette.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.

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