EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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July 5th, 2011 at 7:46:12 PM permalink
Griffin lumped everybody together because it made them look good. It fattened their book and made it look important. BJ counters and other AP's aren't cheaters, but the Griffin Book would have been a double sided sheet of paper without them.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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July 5th, 2011 at 7:46:17 PM permalink
To respond to Dorothy...
You know, I don't know...
Every alert sheet in the casino pit is from some casino's eye crew, not from outside agencies.
Maybe Grffin exists as some sort of remnant outfit, a shadow of its former great days; they had a lot of useful information (to casino operators, that is). But that info is becoming more dated every second.

I will say this:
1. if a casino can't manage its players by its lonesome, its in bad shape.
2. Casinos help one another. It just makes sense. An advantage player enemy to one casino is an enemy to all. (I use that word loosely).
3. Advantage Players don't have longevity: they get caught, they burn out, they join the other side (the good side?), they retire, they write a book, they set up an Internet site or forum (Not thinking mainly of Mike at all, but of Anthony Curtis, the Blackjack forum, etc.)

They (AP's) can even become spokesmen for the Gaming Industry - Max Rubin endorses Bad Beat Blackjack (invented by a very distinguished memeber here) for DEQ.
His quote - with smiling photo - on the product literature is:

"At last, a blackjack progressive side bet that makes the casino money while the players have more fun. Bad Beat Blackjack is a winner for everyone."

Amen.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
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July 5th, 2011 at 9:00:35 PM permalink
@Dorothy - Griffin is still alive, called "Griffon Gold" now (or at least that's the name shown on the one we use, perhaps it's just denoting how "special" our version is). It still is filled with people from actual cheats (scammers, snatchers, cappers) to simple AP's. I don't know how superior Griffin was back in the day, from some of the comments it seems Griffin was THE blackbook. However nowadays, it's simply one of many tools we use in investigating people, and to my knowledge it hasn't been of any use at all to our operation. Basically, if an alert comes through, or someone is up to hijinks at our place, we run them through Griffin. 100% of the time (so far), they're not in there. It's probably the least useful of our resources, IMO. There's also a BOLO watchlist (BOLO = Be On Lookout For) which is just notices straight from casino's. They send info of a certain incident to the site, and the site forwards it to all casino's signed up for the service. In the last few years there's been a push from the guys who host the WGPC, and they're doing there best to...I can't really say "create", because they have no site, but they stay in contact with all sites that attend their conferences. Rather than continue the old stigma of "we got hit, let's keep it quiet so we don't get embarassed" they've encouraged people to open up their mistakes in an effort to educate and collaborate on how to stop it. It's my favorite of them all. Instead of a BOLO alert saying Joe Sunday capped at Casino X, it's a notice that he did it, then an explanation of how he did it, how they noticed it, how it was allowed to happen, and then a forum style commentary not unlike this one discussing what went wrong and how to put it right. Good stuff, but probably know one but protection personnel know about it.
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FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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July 6th, 2011 at 2:28:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

BJ counters and other AP's aren't cheaters...


The casinos often have a different opinion on that issue. A blackjack counter who varies his bets at even fairly low levels is still considered undesirable. Some Sweat The Money joints give heat and the shoulder tap to a counter at a five dollar table. It might dilute the value of a "black book replacement database" to have a five dollar counter be included in it but it could well enhance the wallet of the database owner.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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July 6th, 2011 at 3:27:51 AM permalink
Quote: Face

@Dorothy - Griffin is still alive, called "Griffon Gold" now



This it?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
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July 6th, 2011 at 5:48:46 AM permalink
Quote: Face

@Dorothy - Griffin is still alive, called "Griffon Gold" now (or at least that's the name shown on the one we use, perhaps it's just denoting how "special" our version is). It still is filled with people from actual cheats (scammers, snatchers, cappers) to simple AP's. I don't know how superior Griffin was back in the day, from some of the comments it seems Griffin was THE blackbook. However nowadays, it's simply one of many tools we use in investigating people, and to my knowledge it hasn't been of any use at all to our operation. Basically, if an alert comes through, or someone is up to hijinks at our place, we run them through Griffin. 100% of the time (so far), they're not in there. It's probably the least useful of our resources, IMO. There's also a BOLO watchlist (BOLO = Be On Lookout For) which is just notices straight from casino's. They send info of a certain incident to the site, and the site forwards it to all casino's signed up for the service. In the last few years there's been a push from the guys who host the WGPC, and they're doing there best to...I can't really say "create", because they have no site, but they stay in contact with all sites that attend their conferences. Rather than continue the old stigma of "we got hit, let's keep it quiet so we don't get embarassed" they've encouraged people to open up their mistakes in an effort to educate and collaborate on how to stop it. It's my favorite of them all. Instead of a BOLO alert saying Joe Sunday capped at Casino X, it's a notice that he did it, then an explanation of how he did it, how they noticed it, how it was allowed to happen, and then a forum style commentary not unlike this one discussing what went wrong and how to put it right. Good stuff, but probably know one but protection personnel know about it.

Mr. Face, this is a most excellent response, which totally answers my question and gives even more insight than I could have hoped for.

Thank you so much.

--Ms. D.
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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July 6th, 2011 at 9:21:15 AM permalink
In the early 1990's in Blackhawk Colorado I saw BJ players identified as counters and barred from casino's. Talk about paranoia.
Up until last year the maximum bet was $5 and on 2 occasions I saw players barred playing at a $5 min/max table. How asinine is that? No, not a SD game, but a 6 deck shoe, LOL! One was at LilyBelle's which closed after 6 months. Despite or because of the fees they were paying Resorts as a consulting firm.
Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
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July 22nd, 2011 at 2:31:09 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

This it?



Yeah, odious, that looks familiar. It's not exactly the same as ours, but reckon that it's close enough to call it so.

Quote: DorothyGale

Mr. Face, this is a most excellent response, which totally answers my question and gives even more insight than I could have hoped for.

Thank you so much.

--Ms. D.



No problem, Ms. D. Happy to help =)
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.

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