100xOdds
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
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October 24th, 2020 at 8:08:54 PM permalink
Quote: pwcrabb

Slot machine games have many non-pecuniary attractions such as musical tones, dancing multicolored graphics, solitude, and conceptual themes derived from familiar popular culture. These attractions serve the psychological needs of machine players and compensate for the diminution in Expected Value.
In short, emotion-centered people have different value sets than those of analysis-centered people who may actually care about the math.

Casinos need not offer machines that are nearly fair. In contrast, comparatively sterile table games must provide a rough facsimile of fairness. Egregiously larcenous table games would rapidly alienate players who like to believe that they may win.

great explanation. thx.
wait.. then why is vp usually 97%+?
(vp is considered a slot)

Quote: Ace2

I assume it’s because the house edge is less “visible” in a high variance game. You can beat it or lose horribly.
However, if there was a 15% edge on an essentially even money, low variance game like baccarat or blackjack, you would always lose and stop playing

hm.. variance on video poker is alot higher than the main bets on most table games (JoB = 20, ddb = 45, tdb = 90, multistrike = 300).
yet their return is as high as most table games.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
cmlotito
cmlotito
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October 25th, 2020 at 12:05:23 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

great explanation. thx.
wait.. then why is vp usually 97%+?
(vp is considered a slot)

hm.. variance on video poker is alot higher than the main bets on most table games (JoB = 20, ddb = 45, tdb = 90, multistrike = 300).
yet their return is as high as most table games.



Coin in per hour. Experienced players can do many more hands per hour to offset the lower hold %. Non experienced players make more mistakes and play slower. That offsets it also.

I'm curious if casinos make more money from the experienced players who play fast vs the recreational player who plays much slower. Assuming of course same game being played.
Ace2
Ace2 
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October 25th, 2020 at 6:58:55 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

great explanation. thx.
wait.. then why is vp usually 97%+?
(vp is considered a slot)

hm.. variance on video poker is alot higher than the main bets on most table games (JoB = 20, ddb = 45, tdb = 90, multistrike = 300).
yet their return is as high as most table games.

It’s not an absolute rule, it’s a generalization. The other general factor seems to be skill level. It seems that the higher the skill level, like VP, the lower the edge. Possibly because you need to play properly in order to realize the lower edge
It’s all about making that GTA
Commish
Commish
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October 25th, 2020 at 7:03:43 AM permalink
I think in the mind of the gambler the much higher loss percentage on slots is offset by the chance of one large payoff. In general, this is not available on table games.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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October 25th, 2020 at 7:14:52 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Why are the returns on tables games usually greater than slots?

Frankly, I think your original premise is flawed. Or at least the numbers you’re using.

While slots often have mandated minimums, with some as low as 75%, no casino would set their machines that low or they wouldn’t have customers.

I think they are generally set to pay out in the 95% area, which makes them similar to tables. Hell, video poker is 97% or better. Hell, often you see signs saying the slots are paying 98% or more.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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bigfoot66
October 25th, 2020 at 7:57:52 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear



I think they are generally set to pay out in the 95% area, which makes them similar to tables.



Not even close for AVERAGE on reel slots. 85-91% varying by region/casino would be typical. American casino guide or state gaming websites have some reference points, which include vp blended with slots.
billryan
billryan
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October 25th, 2020 at 8:43:14 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Frankly, I think your original premise is flawed. Or at least the numbers you’re using.

While slots often have mandated minimums, with some as low as 75%, no casino would set their machines that low or they wouldn’t have customers.

I think they are generally set to pay out in the 95% area, which makes them similar to tables. Hell, video poker is 97% or better. Hell, often you see signs saying the slots are paying 98% or more.



Penny slots, which can cost $3 or more per spin rarely pay over 90%. As for your last sentence, I believe it is wrong. What you see is signs saying this slot paid out over 98%, not they will pay out 98%. They are like the signs in a deli advertising that someone hit a lotto jackpot there. They are highlighting a past result. Video poker machines advertise this game pays out 98%, but I've never seen a slot that does.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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October 25th, 2020 at 8:51:36 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

So why are the returns on tables games usually greater than slots?


I can think of two reasons off the top of my head.

First, going by a strictly cost-based reasoning: upkeep. I would assume it costs a lot more to maintain a slot machine than, say, a roulette wheel - and there are far more slot machines than roulette wheels in pretty much every casino.

Second, one of the basic rules of business is, make as much money as possible. The casinos have to balance how much money they can make against how often they will be played both when setting the return on a slot/VP machine and installing a craps or roulette table. Losing too much is quite noticeable on table games, but with slots, there are so many ways to win, along with the lure of a large jackpot, that the overall house edge usually isn't noticeable, so the returns can be reduced.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 25th, 2020 at 10:51:47 AM permalink
Did Vegas go to 6:5 BJ just to thwart card counters, or was it just some dumb idea that spread like coronavirus?
kewlj
kewlj
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ChumpChange
October 25th, 2020 at 11:49:52 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Did Vegas go to 6:5 BJ just to thwart card counters, or was it just some dumb idea that spread like coronavirus?



It had the benefit to thwart card counters, but I don't think that was the reason for it. I think it was just greed. Same logic that lead to reducing pay tables on video poker, JoB going from 9/6 to 8/5. GREED!

Remember the closing scene from the movie "Casino", where they describe the change in Vegas casinos, from mob run, to corporation in the 1980's. That part is very true. And as part of that in the 1990's and 2000's young guys with business degrees began to make their way up the corporate ladder, to where they ran casinos instead of the way it was for decades, casino people that knew the business.

These business degree guys go by the spreadsheet. A cut here, a snip there. Save a buck here. Replace butter with margarine. lol. Anything and everything to save or make an extra buck. I believe 6:5 blackjack was just part of that.

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