Are Casinos Evil?

Quote: MathExtremist

It may be that some so-called advantage players are deluding themselves into thinking they have the advantage. Somewhat like some systems players think that varying their bets according to past results can lead to a long-term advantage over the house -- which is interesting, because wouldn't that by definition make them "advantage players" at least in their own minds?

Yes, but that's no more germane than that some people think they are great singers, or drivers, or cooks. What IS is what matters. Despite what loons like JL think, there are, have been, and probably will always be such things as advantage players. The fact that there are also some people who THINK they are, but in fact are not, doesn't change that one bit. A true advantage player is one who plays at an advantage. This could come from either an inherent advantage over the house, or a temporary condition, such as a promo or a coupon, that offers an advantage. But those are actual, +EV opportunities.

It's not all that difficult to be or to become an advantage player, since there are a dozen or so casino games that can be beaten on a consistent basis one way or another, and the opportunities, even today, for exploitation are limitless. It's possible to be an advantage player in even such a low-tech way as getting the ACG and LVA books and doing a "coupon run". Since the EV of doing both books in their entirety (gambling coupons only) in Vegas is a combined $300+, with very little downside risk, that's an advantage play right there. JL is, at the very moment he reads this, warming up some asinine sneering comment, but winning $300 sure beats dumping five grand at a 98% return VP machine.

What Jerry is missing (aside from, in the macro sense, the entire world), is that it's not worth the trouble for the casinos to hunt down and kill an AP who's making $10-20/hour on an intermittent basis. The Palms, for example, knows full well that the locals pounding away on the deuces wild .25 progressive are winning money from them. But collectively, a full bank of expert players will be taking about $100/hr from the house--a relative drop in the bucket. And those players have wives and husbands and friends who like to play the slots and the crap tables, so the Palms makes money overall from the presence of that bank of machines and the APs on them--those players also eat at the casino restaurants, and bring their out-of-town friends there.

I started this thread 3 years ago and I'm reviving it
because I just came across an article Eliot wrote on
the subject earlier this year. It's all about how casinos
aren't evil, as many AP's claim. http://apheat.net/2013/01/04/why-they-play/

He comes to the conclusion that AP's are just greedy,
they're just 'in it for the money.'

I still believe casino's are evil, even more so than 3 years
ago. They prey on the low information player, they always
have. I posted links a couple weeks ago to catalogs that
sold rigged equipment to casinos in the 20's, 30's, and 40's.
In those days of no regulation, casinos openly cheated their
ignorant customers. When NV set up it's first gaming
commission in the early 50's, they found every game in
every casino was rigged in favor of the house. They not
only had the house edge with the games, they were blatantly
cheating to make as much as possible.

That doesn't happen anymore, but the attitude that spawned
that type of activity still exists. The casino still thinks it has
a right to every dime in your pocket and every dollar it can
get it's hands on from bank accounts and CC's. It doesn't
care if you can afford it or not. It doesn't care if you have a
family to feed or are in debt to your eyeballs or that you
have a gambling problem that needs treatment. Not only don't
they care, they in fact could care less. And that, I'm afraid,
is the very definition of evil.

James Grosjean said in an interview: “Casinos are vile places, a total scam, a total con.”

Here on WoV, Lonesomegambler said this about it:

The quote is from an interview in a publication that is not primarily gambling-related, but it focuses on James' career and professional life. I think that most APs who make it to the "big time" develop similar (or nearly identical) attitudes, as they're in a better position to see the consistent hypocrisy and constant ill-intentioned manipulation that pervades the industry. As it happens, I tend to agree with James' attitude. I'm sure that the remaining positive feelings that I hold toward casinos in general will gradually disappear as I am further inevitably subjected to some of the more severe indignities and sometimes outright crimes that some of my colleagues have been. It's tough to enjoy the lights, music, and "excitement" of the casino environment when you have friends that have been verbally abused, assaulted, handcuffed, falsely arrested, beaten, and robbed, all for not being suckers when playing a card game.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10103-wheres-paigowdan/8/#post153215

Quote: EvenBob

When NV set up it's first gaming
commission in the early 50's, they found every game in
every casino was rigged in favor of the house. They not
only had the house edge with the games, they were blatantly
cheating to make as much as possible.

That doesn't happen anymore.

Are you sure about "that doesn't happen anymore"?
I thought nowadays is not different from the early 50's or 40's in that regard.

Quote: pokerface

Are you sure about "that doesn't happen anymore"?
I thought nowadays is not different from the early 50's or 40's in that regard.

Why would a casino endanger its license by cheating. It
would be suicide.

Strangely enough, I have never meet a successful AP that thought casinos are Evil. I meet a few guys that tried and failed as AP's and now think casinos are evil. I have been physically attacked by a casino for doing nothing more then playing a VP progressive. Yet each and every time a new casino opens, I get happy.
I even have nothing against casinos you have absolutely no advantage when gambling.

Quote: EvenBob

Why would a casino endanger its license by cheating. It
would be suicide.

Ask the The Venetian. Casinos sometimes cheat ,we all know that, I just don't think its as often or blatant as people think.

People don't really understand what evil is. They
always think of serial killers or Hitler, that's their
entire thinking on the subject.

If you're 11 years old and your friend, who's also
11, has another friend who's not the sharpest tool
in the shed, and you both encourage him to do things
where he might be seriously injured, or even killed,
that's evil. When you know better, and can prevent
injury to another in a direct way, and don't do it, that's
evil.

When you set out to hurt people financially, under the
guise of 'entertainment', that also is evil. That's what
the casinos of old were, traps for people with money
and no sense. It's changed a lot in modern times, but
the underlying uncaring attitude is still there. It's just
well hidden now.

Quote: EvenBob

When you set out to hurt people .

That's why all of them should offer some plus ev games. So they can say, look we do provide a couple games which can be beat. If people won't play them, that's the best we can do.

Sounds good to me.

Quote: rxwine

That's why all of them should offer some plus ev games. So they can say, look we do provide a couple games which can be beat.

That's actually not a bad idea, some 0 HE games
that have low betting limits. It would be like a
loss leader in a supermarket. Not open all the
time, structured so the casino basically breaks
even.

Bob, the casinos are not evil. They care about the elderly, the poor, and the disabled. In 1999 the AC casinos argued before the
commission that taxes on casino winnings go to help those people. So to let intelligent players win, would be to derive the neediest of assistance.

The Commission agreed with that logic. And now if you are suspected of counting, the table maximum can be lowered for the counter
and kept the same for all other players.

I believe this is called the " Dan Lubin" law.

Casinos can be evil when placed near big cities. They become magnet for poor. On the other hand, if casinos are placed near the resorts town they provide an intertainment.

Quote: EvenBob

I started this thread 3 years ago and I'm reviving it
because I just came across an article Eliot wrote on
the subject earlier this year. It's all about how casinos
aren't evil, as many AP's claim. http://apheat.net/2013/01/04/why-they-play/

He comes to the conclusion that AP's are just greedy,
they're just 'in it for the money.'

I haven't re-read that in a long time. As the teenage kid said to me today in the local health-food store, "it's a solid."

It took me over 2 years to write that article from the first time I conceived of it until it's execution. It was difficult for me to group concepts into such lumpy categories and still make my points; life is always more complicated than art. I was very proud that this article was the #1 read article on Willy's Casino-Ology site.

Quote: teliot

I haven't re-read that in a long time. As the teenage kid said to me today in the local health-food store, "it's a solid."

It took me over 2 years to write that article from the first time I conceived of it until it's execution. It was difficult for me to group concepts into such lumpy categories and still make my points; life is always more complicated than art. I was very proud that this article was the #1 read article on Willy's Casino-Ology site.

Teliot, you pegged my perfectly in the last sentence of your article. I'm in in just for the money. No other reason.

Quote: teliot

I was very proud that this article was the #1 read article on Willy's Casino-Ology site.

That's because few people write about the subject.
You paint evil with too broad a brush in the article,
of course casinos don't fall into that category. And
it's not the people who work in the trenches, it's
those who run them that I'm talking about. The
more things change, the more they stay the same.

Quote: EvenBob

That's because few people write about the subject.

Can you point me to another published secular article that explores the thesis "casinos are evil" as its central focus?

Quote: teliot

Can you point me to another published secular article that explores the thesis "casinos are evil" as its central focus?

I said few people write about it and you
want me to point to another article?

What?

Quote: EvenBob

I said few people write about it and you
want me to point to another article?

What?

If by "few" you mean "only me", then no, don't point.

I have heard APs say the word "evil" since I started AP-ing back in 1996, yet I have never read an exposition that wasn't riddled with contradictions, the first of which is a non-definition of the word "evil" and the second of which is a deep ambiguity as to "who/what" is the actual thing that is evil.

Quote: teliot

If by "few" you mean "only me", then no, don't point.

I have heard APs say the word "evil" since I started AP-ing back in 1996, yet I have never read an exposition that wasn't riddled with contradictions, the first of which is a non-definition of the word "evil" and the second of which is a deep ambiguity as to "who/what" is the actual thing that is evil.

I thought I was fairly explicit about what's evil yesterday:

I still believe casino's are evil, even more so than 3 years
ago. They prey on the low information player, they always
have. I posted links a couple weeks ago to catalogs that
sold rigged equipment to casinos in the 20's, 30's, and 40's.
In those days of no regulation, casinos openly cheated their
ignorant customers. When NV set up it's first gaming
commission in the early 50's, they found every game in
every casino was rigged in favor of the house. They not
only had the house edge with the games, they were blatantly
cheating to make as much as possible.

That doesn't happen anymore, but the attitude that spawned
that type of activity still exists. The casino still thinks it has
a right to every dime in your pocket and every dollar it can
get it's hands on from bank accounts and CC's. It doesn't
care if you can afford it or not. It doesn't care if you have a
family to feed or are in debt to your eyeballs or that you
have a gambling problem that needs treatment. Not only don't
they care, they in fact could care less. And that, I'm afraid,
is the very definition of evil.

Quote: EvenBob

The casino still thinks.

What?

You gave what you wrote little thought. If you want to write an essay defending the "casinos are evil" perspective, I'll be glad to post it on my blog. Just write in a way that makes sense and don't fill your essay with noise and nonsense. Short of that, nothing you've written so far is even vaguely on point. That offer goes for anyone here, AP or otherwise. I would love to have a cogent rebuttal essay on my site.

Quote: teliot

You gave what you wrote little thought. .

Unlike you, who wrote:

"Using the word “evil” as a context for justifying the profession of beating casinos is to diminish the value of battles fought by our armies and civil rights leaders. It lessens the memory of the lives lost through terrorist acts. It shuns the suffering of rape victims and child sex slaves. It dismisses the incredible burden of families of murder victims. It forgets genocide. There is evil and there is evil. Casinos are not evil."

Could you have found a broader brush to paint with?
The smaller evils escape your wide strokes. In fact,
under your definition of evil, casinos are one step below
the Girl Scouts.