f2d
f2d
Joined: May 25, 2010
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July 3rd, 2010 at 1:29:59 PM permalink
If the casino allows people to bend the cards I don't see what's wrong with taking advantage of that. Like I said, the casino is dumb enough to allow people to blatantly mishandle the cards to the point where there's visible differences on some cards (when looking at the backs). If the ploppies can do it, then so can I. A lot of people handle the cards with 2 hands as well and nothing's ever said about this!

Game protection at this place = a huge failure.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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July 3rd, 2010 at 8:46:50 PM permalink
I'm not sure if it's illegal, but I think it's still, at the very least, unethical.

Then again, the Wiz talks about finding dealers that flash their hole card. That's nothing more that being observant of a specific situation. Is that any different than utilizing the "mark" of bent cards?


Except you're talking about deliberately bending the cards....


Personally, I gotta think that any such bent card marks would be worthless as a cheater's mark since the ploppies will be re-bending the cards. They may even be un-bending your marks, or unintentionally duplicating your marks on other cards.

How can you possibly keep track of such a thing?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
f2d
f2d
Joined: May 25, 2010
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July 3rd, 2010 at 11:05:40 PM permalink
HA! Ethics in a casino.

You mean the place that makes a living off taking advantage of people's vices? Or the place that routinely gives people credit they know they cant afford to pay back? Trust me, I don't feel the least bit sorry for these places.

Well.. obviously a good marker would be able to differentiate between his own marks and ones made by ploppies.. as far as them unbending our marks or making similar marks on wrong cards, that's just part of the game and a risk that i have to take. If they actually had proper rules in place this opportunity wouldn't exist.
Croupier
Croupier
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
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July 4th, 2010 at 3:36:51 AM permalink
Quote: f2d

HA! Ethics in a casino.

You mean the place that makes a living off taking advantage of people's vices? Or the place that routinely gives people credit they know they cant afford to pay back? Trust me, I don't feel the least bit sorry for these places.



So then by your morals it would be OK to hold up a liquor store that sold to an alcoholic, or a gas station that sells cigarettes?

And how about robbing a bank that gave out mortgages to people that could never pay them back?
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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July 4th, 2010 at 4:40:48 AM permalink
Casinos don't force people to gamble. They have a business that offers a game where they normally have an advantage, and that every player knows they have an advantage (although the average player may not know to what extent).

And although mistakes are made often, their intention is to run an honest game.

I.E. They don't take advantage of a vice. They merely provide the vice. Nobody is forced to play.

As far as the casino credit thing goes, I've never used it, so I don't know all the inner workings. But when I bought a house 13 years ago, the banker gave me a mortgage limit that was more than double what I ended up using. Had I bought a house that was double in price, it would have been foreclosed upon about 10 years ago. Instead, I used my better judgement and got a house I could afford, and still live there.

I.E. Casino credit departments are probably no better or worse than banks.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
BigTip
BigTip
Joined: May 25, 2010
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July 4th, 2010 at 6:05:34 AM permalink
Rationalizing cheating the casino because they cater to a vice?

Somebody 86 this dumbass right now. He just called one of our favorite past times a vice. It's an entertainment source, just like going to the movies.

Maybe you can also rationalize your cheating by saying that they are big bad corporations deserving of abuse. "Business" is a great whipping boy these days in our society. (I wish we had a "rolls eye" icon so I could use it here)
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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July 4th, 2010 at 6:35:45 AM permalink
Quote: BigTip


Somebody 86 this dumbass right now. He just called one of our favorite past times a vice. It's an entertainment source, just like going to the movies.

Maybe you can also rationalize your cheating by saying that they are big bad corporations deserving of abuse. "Business" is a great whipping boy these days in our society. (I wish we had a "rolls eye" icon so I could use it here)



I second the motion. First he states he is just looking for someone to team up with, somehting many of us wonder about doing. But then he makes the absurd comment about a "7% Player advantage" which most of us know is impossible over the long haul. We also know if you did get this kind of advantage it woulod be so obvious you would be better directly sending Griffin Investigations a picture you like so you don't look like a mug shot in their book.

Then he says it is about "bendng" cards. Dice control and card counting are within the rules even though casinos may 86 you if you win too much. Marking cards is not OK and can get you time in the can.

THEN he rationalizes it by saying "the casinos catrer to a vice." I don't know where to start with this one. It is like stealing something from someone because "they have plenty of 'x' and won't miss one." Or think of the scene in "Falling Down" where the street bum "asks" Michael Douglas for one of his briefcases because "you have 2 and I have none, is that fair?" (I won't even tell an example in today's politics because it would start a war here.)

So yes, 86 him. He gives the rest of advantage players a bad name by trying to associate with us.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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July 4th, 2010 at 9:30:37 AM permalink
I don't have a problem with F2D.

If a casino is letting you handle cards, I see an ethical problem with you knowing in advance what cards are being dealt, and in the blackjack world, I would think you would mark face cards.

However, I don't see a legal problem with it as long as they are not using any mechanical or other device to mark the card. Absolutely, if I were the casino, I would be changing cards out frequently and looking for unusual play to see what was up.

We're all at a casino to (hopefully) win and to be entertained, and when I am in the casino I play an honest game. Some people don't play an honest game, using the common excuses "it's a large corporation", "they always have the advantage", "they don't publish their slot machine statistics", "they are cheating you", and so on and so forth. Personally, I don't have a problem with unethical behaviour in a casino based on the belief system that the player has. I of course do have a huge problem with illegal behaviour.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
f2d
f2d
Joined: May 25, 2010
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July 4th, 2010 at 10:54:51 AM permalink
I don't know about you, but I'll take any advantage I can get in the casino as long as it's not blatantly illegal (like grabbing checks outta the dealer's rack)

This case would be extremely borderline since the casino allows people to mishandle cards, and there won't be any device (or daub or whatever) being used to mark the cards. It would merely be someone bending the cards far enough so that they don't fully return to their original shape. It wouldn't even need to be done surreptitiously when you're allowed to hold the cards with 2 hands and bend the hell out of them in plain view of the dealer!

Like I said, the casino doesn't have proper rules in place to protect themselves from people mishandling cards, and don't change the decks often enough, and the pit crew doesn't supervise the games (even for a $500 buy in they just glance over and say "go ahead" without verifying the transaction). I even chatted with one of the pit guys I've gotten to know there and he told me the favorite part about his job was being able to watch TV all day (aka, NOT watch the games being dealt in the pit).

I also got a large credit line at the casino with practically no questions asked. They didn't bother running a credit check or anything, just called my bank to see how much money I have in my account. (Which I presume is standard practice at most places).
scotty81
scotty81
Joined: Feb 4, 2010
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July 4th, 2010 at 12:35:39 PM permalink
f2d: Just remember that 3 card monte is based on very much the same thing. You see a "bend" that you think no one else sees, and then proceed to lose your money. What you need to do is just go in and test your theory. Why do you need a partner? If, over the course of several days you find yourself losing, yet the casino attitude toward your act remains the same, it may just be that these folks aren't quite as stupid as you think they are.

If something seems too good to be true, it generally isn't.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr

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