"Church" Blackjack team doc on Current TV

I watched a documentary on the "Church" blackjack team last night. I'm not sure if it has been on before but if it comes on again, it is worth watching if you're interested in that sort of thing.

One of them is going to be on my radio show soon. I welcome questions to ask him.

They have a DVD for $19.95 that gets nothing but great reviews. Max Rubin calls it,"Spectacular!".

It's also on Netflix and through iTunes. I really enjoyed the movie.

I have seen several interviews on local stations here in seattle, This is where the founder is from and where it all started.

As I understand it, they were simply ordinary blackjack counters who formed around a social relationship of members of some fundamentalist Christian church. It could be a bowling team or a group of office workers who met at a water cooler and decided to play blackjack as a team.

Its on again at 4pm Monday. It sounds like its the
DVD documentary thats being aired. The Holy Roller
site says they made a deal with Current TV. Looks
interesting. The members believed what they were
doing was consistent with their faith because they felt
they were winning money from an 'evil enterprise'.

Casinos evil? Where have I heard that before.. They
made 3.7 million. Not bad for an AP profession
thats supposedly 'dead'.

Is that the "Church" with Arnold Snyder?? I think that Snyder made it into the Blackjack Hall of Fame. He used to publish "Blackjack Forum"

Holy Rollers: The True Story of Card Counting Christians

DVD is on ebay, etc

I do not think it is Arnold Snyder.

Quote: bigpete88

Is that the "Church" with Arnold Snyder?? I think that Snyder made it into the Blackjack Hall of Fame. He used to publish "Blackjack Forum"

No, the Bishop does not belong to that "church."

I thought I recognized 2 church members from the ' Survivors" and another from " Big Brother" .

I recorded it.

Amateur hour. Incredibly naive card counting team. They
made every mistake possible and weren't even aware they
were making them

A lot of the team members said they've been kicked out
of hundreds of casinos across the US. Amateurs. They
were Christian's so even considering some of the team
members might be stealing was not even as issue. They
were paid an hourly wage, so if you play 6 hours at 4
different casinos and make $22K, you made $120 for
yourself that day. But you were playing alone, have $22K
burning a hole in your jeans, and none of them were
ever tempted to peel off $5K for themselves and turn
in the rest? Sure they weren't, they're infallible Xtion's.

The one guy who got let go for stealing was the only
non Xtion and he was fired because God ratted him out
to a team member. I kid you not. They would find that
sometimes as many as five members had no idea how
to count cards, yet they were given thousands and sent
into the casinos.

Watch this embarrassing naive amateur baloney just to
find out all the things to do not to build a successful
BJ team. Just because they made money once in awhile
doesn't mean they got it right.

Here is Arnold Snyder, Bishop of The First Church of Blackjack, giving a sermon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdxZD_oDgTY

Quote: EvenBob

Watch this embarrassing naive amateur baloney just to find out all the things to do not to build a successful BJ team.
Just because they made money once in awhile doesn't mean they got it right.

Heck, even the "real professionals", the early teams from MIT, perfected their skills and tested them out in Connecticut before flying to the big time... and they got creamed by Lady Variance.

Quote: EvenBob

I recorded it.

Amateur hour. Incredibly naive card counting team. They
made every mistake possible and weren't even aware they
were making them

A lot of the team members said they've been kicked out
of hundreds of casinos across the US. Amateurs. They
were Christian's so even considering some of the team
members might be stealing was not even as issue. They
were paid an hourly wage, so if you play 6 hours at 4
different casinos and make $22K, you made $120 for
yourself that day. But you were playing alone, have $22K
burning a hole in your jeans, and none of them were
ever tempted to peel off $5K for themselves and turn
in the rest? Sure they weren't, they're infallible Xtion's.

The one guy who got let go for stealing was the only
non Xtion and he was fired because God ratted him out
to a team member. I kid you not. They would find that
sometimes as many as five members had no idea how
to count cards, yet they were given thousands and sent
into the casinos.

Watch this embarrassing naive amateur baloney just to
find out all the things to do not to build a successful
BJ team. Just because they made money once in awhile
doesn't mean they got it right.

First of all they weren't all Christians as the promos and documentary suggest, Bob. In a guest chat on a blackjack site, Colin estimated that 80% of the 50 people involved over the 6 years were Christians. He also stated that they did have quite a few trust issues, same as any other blackjack team in which they began to question and suspect each other. I guess they didn't want to mention this in the movie as it would kind of defeat the whole catchy angle of a "Christian Blackjack Team".

My personal first impression was that this project was backwards. I mean you read one of the books about the MIT team and you know that the project was the blackjack team. There was no thought of a book during the time of their experiences. The book idea was an after thought and by an outsider. With this project I felt just the opposite, that the main primary project was to do the documentary. Like, "hey wouldn't it be great to make a documentary about a religious blackjack team?" The media idea first, the team and experiences second. Just my opinion.

Amateurs? Well they certainly made some mistakes along the way. I don't know that I would classify them as amateurs. I forget the monetary number they claim to have made over the 6 years. I want to say $3.5 million, but that may not be correct. Can't seem to find it any where. I do know that in the chat that I am referencing, Colin, claimed to have personally made over $700 thousand playing and another $600 thousand managing the team over 6 years. With though figures as results, I wouldn't classify them as amateurs. Of course, neither of us are in a position to know if those figures are accurate or not. (but hey...they are Christians. I am sure they are not lying. lol)

Bob, I do agree with your 'amateur' assessment as far as barrings and backoffs go. 100's of barrings and backoffs seems like a lot. Obviously they adopted a slash and burn style, not caring about longevity. As a solo player, who's primary concern is longevity, that is hard for me to relate to. On the other hand claiming 100's of backoffs and barrings adds credibility to the idea that you were a major threat to the industry. There are a number of players or former blackjack players running around selling books, video's, seminars and they all state that they were sooo good that they have been backed off at every casino and can no longer play. That is part of the sales pitch. Again, hard for me to relate to. In my mind, part of being successful is to avoid backoffs and barrings and still be able to play. To learn just what the tolerance levels are of different locations and stay within their comfort levels as much as possible. Sure, if you play a lot, there is always going to be some countermeasures, including a few backoffs and barrings, but a really successful player should be able to keep it to a minimum.

Quote: FleaStiff

and they got creamed by Lady Variance.

I not talking about variance. They did the math and
found their 'bad luck' had a 1/10,000 chance of being
vaiance. It was team members who thought they were
counting and weren't, and thievery. And so many of them
got thrown out of 'hundreds of casinos'. Thats just
rank amateurism. They trusted far too much to God and a
business model, and didn't invest enough time in doing
a good job.

Quote: kewlj

First of all they weren't all Christians as the promos an documentary suggest, Bob. In a guest chat on a blackjack site, Colin estimated that 80% of the 50 people involved over the 6 years were Christians. He also stated that they did have quite a few trust issues, same as any other blackjack team in which they began to question and suspect each other.

They told a different story in the movie. They never
doubted their fellow brothers, and only suspected
the one non Xtion in their midst. They never even
hinted they had more than one.

Quote: kewlj

Like, "hey wouldn't it be great to make a documentary about a religious blackjack team?" The media idea first, the team and experiences second. Just my opinion.

I felt the same way. They started making the film 3 years
before they quit playing. I think they made some money,
but not what they claimed. The whole thing had a funny
feeling to it, they were all so matter of fact about everything.
No anger, no hard feelings, they were all blah emotionally.
It didn't feel real.

Quote: kewlj

There are a number of players or former blackjack players running around selling books, video's, seminars and they all state that they were sooo good that they have been backed off at every casino and can no longer play. That is part of the sales pitch.

Even Thorp did this in Beat the Dealer. We're supposed to believe
that the first time he played BJ in a casino for real, he was so
skilled, and the variance was so much on his side, that he got
banned from every casino in Reno in one weekend. Baloney.

These people are doing the same thing, we were so good, so
dangerous that we got kicked out of hundreds of casinos. Bull..

This movie really seemed to just drag on to me. We get it you like god you play black jack move on.

Quote: kmumf

This movie really seemed to just drag on to me. We get it you like god you play black jack move on.

They didn't seem like BJ team players. There was never
any talk about BJ when they got together, playing the
actual game in the casino. If you've ever played on a
team, thats all you talk about. Dealers, the pit giving you
the stinkeye, keeping the count and losing the count.
And how much were they playing for, what was the spread,
they never got into any of it. Just kept flashing piles of
money & showing hidden camera snippets of them getting 86'd.

What were they doing that they got 86'd in 12min and 15min
and 25min? How would they even know the shoe was ready
12min after they sat down. Do they want us to believe they
were so well known that every casino had their pics right
their and was constantly on the look out for them? I don't
think so.

I watched it again. One of their best players says he was
kicked out of every casino he played in eventually. If true,
this is just silly. Nobody gets kicked out of every casino
unless he wants to be kicked out.

After seeing this again, this has got to be the most inept
BJ team I've ever seen. Their training was almost non
existent for new players. They tested one of their 'best'
players who hadn't played in awhile, and he had no idea
what he was doing. This is why they went down so fast,
inept players and theft. The players who did know how to
play must have carried the team until there was just too
much dead weight aboard and it sunk them.

I think the only advantage will be on the DVD. Another realty show packaged as real. Pawn stars and that dumbass show about bidding on storage units. Been there, done that.

I agree Evenbob something seemed off when they were showing the interactions between the teammates. Also the lack of real conflict in the documentary is what bored me the most. They put way to much emphasis on the backed off players.

Maybe they would sell more DVDs if they put Chumlee on the cover?
Its some sort of hucksterism rather than truth.
No one ever has such utterly bad luck in a casino or such utterly good luck.

Quote: kmumf

They put way to much emphasis on the backed off players.

They seemed to think getting backed off means they
they were extra good, dangerous players. Its what
people who don't play at all would think. The whole
thing has me baffled. When the guy said he was
thrown out of every casino he played at, he actually
was proud. Like its hard to get 86'd if your a bad player,
it only happens to the really good ones.

I'll watch it one more time. Something stinks about the
whole thing. One issue I had is they're supposed to be
Christian's, and they talk about how evil the casino is, yet
they're playing to enrich themselves personally. It seems
if they felt it was evil , money, they'd want to give to the
money to a good cause, like a charity. And I don't remember
any church scenes, just them reading the Bible occasionally.
Odd..

This just gets weirder and weirder. From a FAQ
by one of the team members.

Were you ever arrested or threatened by a casino?

"Most casinos were pretty laid back and nonchalant about card counters. I've had dinner with pit bosses that kicked me out earlier that day." http://mscottfoster.com/2012/06/11/christian-blackjack-holy-rollers-faq/

I've heard this kind of talk before, and its always from
people who have a fantasy about what being an AP is
really like. Dinner with pit bosses who kicked you out?
Are you sure thats the story you want to stick with?

In the film the leader says:

At least we can liberate the money from the clutches of those who would use it for ill purposes. I mean, that's a start.

I'm not a big casino fan, but what 'ill purposes' do the casinos
use the profits for, exactly. Paying the employee's? Paying the
light bill? Building a bigger parking garage? They act like casinos
use the money to starve kids in Africa or something.

The Hard Rock Arrest story is a little hard to believe, as per the time frame mentioned, mid 2000's. In the state of Nevada, the ruling from the Wilkenson case in the 70's still stands and has been upheld many times. Even, after previously having been read the trespass act, a patron must be given the opportunity to leave prior to arrest each and every time. This means that you can show up at a casino day after day after day, even after having been 'trespassed', and they have to first allow you to leave before any further action. Yes, this pretty much makes the whole act of trespassing someone meaningless. They can only arrest you if you refuse to leave. The casino's all know this, and if they didn't they certainly do after several of the large verdicts and settlements of recent years. They now, only go through theses trespass motions as a form of intimidation. Back-rooming is a thing of the past when it comes to card counting activity. So any attorney that they hired would have wanted to do much more than just get the charges dropped when presented with this case.

My own experience has been that there is a level at most properties, where a certain amount of advantage play is tolerated, at least for a short time. It is just easier for pit folks to look the other way for a while and hope you will leave on your own. But that leash is short. If you stay more than 20-30 minutes or play at levels above this threshold, they will not tolerate it, simply because if they do nothing, THEY may have to answer for it. Now this church team was certainly playing above any kind of comfort level for the casinos. So, a statement like, "Most casinos were pretty laid back and nonchalant about card counters", makes no sense. Especially when in the same breath, they claim to have been kicked out of every casino. Completely contradictory.

Having dinner with a pit boss that kicked you out earlier, seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened. One night while at a bar/club at a non-casino property several miles off the strip, I was approached by a gentleman, who introduced himself as a pit boss at a strip property. He bought me a beer and told me that I was no longer welcome to play at that property on his shift. We talked a bit, and he bought me a second beer before leaving. I have since run into this gentleman a half dozen times at this establishment. Each time, we usually have a beer or two and a bit of conversation. I have found these conversations and this casual friendship, to be very beneficial. So, I can't dismiss the possibility that such a dinner took place. As I said, stranger things have happened.

I've had a pit boss who knew me from his casino join my table and start counting. Talk about awkward!

Quote: kewlj

I was approached by a gentleman, who introduced himself as a pit boss at a strip property. He bought me a beer and told me that I was no longer welcome to play at that property on his shift. We talked a bit, and he bought me a second beer before leaving.

I have actually done this, I sat down to play at one of our local joints and recognized an AP at the game.
I played with him for a bit, and when they closed the table, I went to the bar. The AP joined the bar scene,
I very politely introduced myself, bought him a drink. We talked for a bit and before I left, I asked him and his partner
(who was not with him, who I later played with at the other local joint) to not play in my casino. He was very nice, he said "deal"
and we went on our way.

He already knew who I was, because his partner and him had came in about a year before. They came back in and noticed I had taken
some precautions, and they said it wasn't as easy at my place anymore.

I never saw them again.

When I got backed off at the Western (to include the El Cortez, Vegas Club and Gold Strike) the suit offered to buy me a drink at bar. He was very cordial and seemed to see advantage play for the game that it is.

This all makes sense to me, and strikes me as mature and adult behaviour.

Professional enemies can be, and should be, personally amicable.

Here's an example:

Back before the area was booming, everything was a big cluster-**** to try to attract the coal miners and/or construction workers to your hotel. I had a discussion by which another hotel manager called me, as follows:

"Hey, (Mission146), I noticed some of (company name) trucks are in YOUR parking lot."

"That is to be expected, that's where people tend to park when they are staying here."

"How'd you get them?"

"Well, I drove through your parking lot, got the company's phone number of off one of the trucks, schmoozed the girl that answered the phone, and managed to get the Crew Supervisor's phone number. I called him and made my pitch, he convinced the company to move the crew here."

"How much did you beat my rate by?"

"Negative ten dollars, which is to say they are paying ten dollars more per night."

"WHAT!?"

"Yeah, the company is paying for the rooms, not the individual guys, those are all company plastic. In any case, I told him that he and every crew member get two free drinks at the bar every night they are here. Of course, they're not free, the company is paying for them, hence me not at least matching your rate! They also like my flat screen TV's, you shoud really talk to ownership about opening the wallet over there. That was a 25K investment here that took, maybe three months, to be proven to be directly profitable."

"Yeah, well, we don't all have the luxury of ownership that listens, bye."

"Have a good one! By the way, I'm sold out tonight, so if anyone comes in, I'll send them over to you...it's the least I can do!"

***He worked the afternoon shift a few days later, I got off early and we went to Denny's for a cup of coffee and apple pie. I bought...that time!

Quote: Wizard

When I got backed off at the Western (to include the El Cortez, Vegas Club and Gold Strike) the suit offered to buy me a drink at bar. He was very cordial and seemed to see advantage play for the game that it is.

Gold Strike? The property in Jean, NV? I thought that was an MGM property... Perhaps you meant Gold Spike?

Quote: Wizard

When I got backed off at the Western (to include the El Cortez, Vegas Club and Gold Strike) the suit offered to buy me a drink at bar.

That I believe. My problem is, I keep forgetting that most
players think the fat guy in the suit that started 6 weeks
ago is the 'pit boss'. They think every suit in every casino
is the pit boss.

So when the Church guy says he had dinner with pit bosses,
I take him at his word that it was THE pit boss, and doubt
he's telling the truth. When in fact, he probably had dinner
with the fat guy in the ill fitting suit and is calling him the
pit boss because he doesn't know any better.

Based on my experience, if he picked up the check, he definitely was not the pit boss.

All right, I'm pretty much done with this subject. I
think the documentary was severely edited to remove
any hint of emotional responses to what was happening.
Everybody in this is even keeled and thoughtful, nobody
ever gets mad, upset, depressed, anxious, resentful,
regretful, they all seem to be on massive amounts of
Valium or something. Even when they're trying to root
out possible theives in their midst, its like they're discussing
mowing the lawn or washing the car.

They seem to want to show the world how superior being
a Christian is. They decided to play BJ, did it with barely
mussing their hair, and have moved on. The total lack of
drama makes it a very boring 90min, but Christians don't
experience emotions like normal people, apparently, they
are above it.

I did like when one of them told a suit when he was being
86'd, that hey, you tell us on TV to come and get rich quick,
and I'm doing it and you're kicking me out. But they talk
about getting 86'd so much that its a good thing to them,
it lets them know how dangerous they are. Yawn..