Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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August 8th, 2012 at 12:46:24 PM permalink
Quote: MangoJ

And if they do ? Unless they are cheating (switching cards or colluding) it shouldn't be of your concern whose money is on the table.



I was just joking about the Shuffle machine being rigged, or rather, the notion thereof. My point was that the Shuffle Machine (knowing the position of the casino's players) could deal them all good inside hands, if not good final hands, guaranteed.
Vultures can't be choosers.
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
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August 8th, 2012 at 5:18:38 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I was just joking about the Shuffle machine being rigged, or rather, the notion thereof. My point was that the Shuffle Machine (knowing the position of the casino's players) could deal them all good inside hands, if not good final hands, guaranteed.



That's another hole in the "The Shuffler is Rigged" theories. How exactly would the shuffler know how many players there were and where they were sitting?

I've seen it suggested that someone monitoring the Eye in the Sky is controlling them, but the problem is there's no method for putting them on a network to be controlled. The only input port I've seen on them is for USB, and that's covered by a sticker, that's put there by gaming, that falls apart if you tamper with it.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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August 8th, 2012 at 5:56:00 PM permalink
The machine would not only be ignorant of the number of players, the number of circles with bets, but also ignorant of the decisions made by some of those idiotic players including those that want to hit 21.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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August 8th, 2012 at 6:02:22 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

also ignorant of the decisions made by some of those idiotic players including those that want to hit 21.



Aren't we talking only about games where those decisions affect bets and not the cards? LIR was mentioned specifically...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
ewjones080
ewjones080
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August 8th, 2012 at 6:22:13 PM permalink
Yep, they have a SORT feature. I think the casino should be more worried about this than the player. Why would a casino ever deal out a Royal Flush if they can control the outcome. Nobody would be that surprised if a Royal had never been dealt in a couple years. Or Straight Flushes for that matter. Yet, where I work, at least half a dozen have gone out in a year. Considering it (Mississippi Stud) doesn't get considerable play, that's probably reasonable.

But I would imagine, the ShuffleMaster techs could put some extra programming in the machines that use the sort feature. Thus, they could collude with a player to take advantage, not getting anything crazy, just a lot of trips and two pair with an occasional full house (on Mississippi).
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
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August 8th, 2012 at 6:57:30 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The machine would not only be ignorant of the number of players, the number of circles with bets, but also ignorant of the decisions made by some of those idiotic players including those that want to hit 21.



Absolutely. And then there's the matter of letting a player cut the deck...


Quote: rdw4potus

Aren't we talking only about games where those decisions affect bets and not the cards? LIR was mentioned specifically...



It applies to all games that use a shuffler, but if the shufflers were rigged they would have the biggest potential to cheat the players at carnival games.

Quote: ewjones080


But I would imagine, the ShuffleMaster techs could put some extra programming in the machines that use the sort feature.



While I wouldn't call it impossible, you'd likely have to be a much higher level employee than a tech to do such a thing. I doubt any of their techs have the programming capacity for such a thing, and again, how does the shuffler know when to pull it's trick? I can pretty much guarantee that a shuffler that is continuously spitting out trips or better is going to be pulled off the floor and inspected, and then the plot would be discovered and likely traced right back to who ever was responsible. It probably wouldn't be any harder than running a check sum test on the code that was on the machine and matching it to what's supposed to be in use.
mikeisanace
mikeisanace
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July 4th, 2016 at 1:06:49 AM permalink
I think these machines can have an algorithm it's a machine therefore it can be programmed. I see this as a huge potential for the casinos in limit or no limit gaming adding more pots, more rake per hour with the appearance of randomness and it's impossible to prove. Cards are sorted optically one by one then placed as they chose from 52 then minus 18 +3 with gaps as burns then the final 2 cards to complete the 5 card flop. It can then dictate any flop it wan'ts such as 8910-or pairs such as 55-2 suited to promote pots and action for more rake per hour and more re buys from unlucky seats sorta... The hole in this is 9 people could be on the table but 7 are only signed in. I often see dealers checking everyone in with players cards and the rest as guest, the programming doesn't care as long it can subtract the players to select flops determined same with the hole cards! It probably has 5-6-7-8-9 handed algorithms all pre determined throughout a set of series of hand flops such as blank-BB flush flush-trips-pair pair etc... I would like to think this is just a mechanical machine that moves the cards around as they fall but it might not be the case. The casino wouldn't dare cheat for even 10,000 or 100,000 short term but if this adds a fun element to the players and a 2% edge long term to the casino then of course they would do it as it's impossible to prove. Hey even video poker is kinda rigged as it has an algorithm! This is all cyclical long term over 1,000,000 hands+ be it video poker,slots or Live poker. I don't know about no limit but it could have the same function to promote action,rebuys and rake per hour. It seems overly complicated, but in this fashion Shuffle machines would be considered unfair and rigged. Say 8 players signed in 8 players in action 52-16 +3 3 gapped burns and then the final 2 it could figure this easy being pre programmed along with second best hands,winning hands and hands made to chase such as a9 suited-10 j-suited-AA with a board of k-5 2-q-k with 2 hearts with the winner being dealt qk off as the winner with a full house determined before hand. I would consider this undetectable cheating. It promotes action,rebuys and seems random and would give the casino a 2 to 4% edge over skilled players.
Last edited by: mikeisanace on Jul 4, 2016
sabre
sabre
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July 4th, 2016 at 6:30:46 AM permalink
You think some very odd things and you are replying to a several year old thread.
Diogenes
Diogenes
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August 30th, 2016 at 5:21:12 AM permalink
Patent US6299167 ­ Playing card shuffling machine ­ Google Patents

"Another problem area suffered by both manual and automated shuffling techniques is associated with having concentrated sequences of cards. These concentrations or “slugs” most often occur with respect to cards having a value of 10, such as in playing blackjack. A skilled card counting gambler can take advantage of such card slugs to turn the odds against the casino and in favor of the card counter. Such slugs also indicate the failure of prior art shufflers to in fact effectively rearrange the order of cards in a deck or decks being shuffled. Thus there remains a strong need for improved shuffling machines which can effectively reorder a deck or series of decks."

The upshot of this is that it is now possible to "arrange" a shoe of cards in non-random order. My guess is that the shoe is arranged in an order that reduces variability.

If this is true, you should see very few winning runs by players and many bust hands of 12 - 16.

Cutting doesn't make any difference because cutting doesn't change the card sequence in any significant way. Number of players doesn't matter either.

It seems to me that this year there has been much less variability in blackjack and (in my case; an unusual number of losing sessions)

Full reference: Search Google patents US6299167
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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August 30th, 2016 at 11:59:26 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey



They say 'do 1 riffle' so that's what we do. Doing anything else would get the dealer in trouble.



I was once at a table with a very friendly dealer who was stuck with very unfriendly cards. As he riffled the deck, someone said, "Just do an extra shuffle this time, OK?"

He replied, "Can't." But, just then someone who had ordered a drink pushed a nickel out on the table and asked for singles. "Well, maybe I can...," he said, at which time he put the deck back in the discard shoe (which he didn't need to do), cut the white chips the player requested, then fussed with the chips in his tray for a few seconds. "Since the cards went back into the shoe, I have to shuffle them again... Oh, well!" We all chuckled at his efforts to accommodate the request for a second riffle before putting the cards back into the shuffle machine.

Monkey, would you have been able to do something like this dealer? Even if it was only once in a while?

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