s2dbaker
s2dbaker
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
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January 10th, 2014 at 12:35:18 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

And while I feel people are waking up to the fraud, too many still believe.

Because Science.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
paisiello
paisiello
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January 10th, 2014 at 1:11:27 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Tree rings/ice cores/whatever can be measured, but they cannot take other factors into account. Perhaps there was a drought, perhaps there was a tree disease that year. Any of this could happen. When you are talking about a rise of 1-2C any such error is major in data collection.


Not true. You can correlate temperature with tree ring width which means the other factors can already be accounted for. The following graph for example from NOAA data shows this correlation is good between the years 1850 and 1980:

In addition there are other proxies that can be used: ice cores, pollen grains, corals, and lake and ocean sediments which all show this same correlation.

Quote: AZDuffman

It is "Animal Farm" pure and simple, listen to Napoleon and the pigs because they know better and have your best interests at heart. Don't question anything. They are allowed to drink whiskey and live in the house because they have the burden of running things, the rest get to live in the barn.


Another poor analogy. There is a well developed science that is open to inspection by anyone willing to take the time to do so. No one is going to be executed simply because they don't understand the science. Being skeptical and questioning things is not only fine but even necessary for any science to advance. But to question it relentlessly and objecting everything about it while knowing only a little about the subject is hubristic.
Buzzard
Buzzard
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January 10th, 2014 at 1:47:17 PM permalink
Damn had to look up that word. " Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities "

What a high class way to say JERK. I will definitely add hubristic to my vocabulary. Even though spell check seems not to have that word in it's vocabulary.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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January 10th, 2014 at 2:28:20 PM permalink
My muthuh made a hubristic once. It was like buttuh.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
boymimbo
boymimbo
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January 10th, 2014 at 4:35:24 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

But in such a case you can actually measure the trucks (control) and figure how much you are off on most trucks and adjust. "Tree ring" measurements can never do this. Tree rings/ice cores/whatever can be measured, but they cannot take other factors into account. Perhaps there was a drought, perhaps there was a tree disease that year. Any of this could happen. When you are talking about a rise of 1-2C any such error is major in data collection.

What I find amusing is so many on the global-warming side will look at a guy in Kentucky who watches a preacher on TV and laugh at him for doing so. If he sends the guy some money they will laugh even harder. But when it comes to global warming if you question anything they say, "shut up and listen to the scientists, it is SETTLED!"

It is "Animal Farm" pure and simple, listen to Napoleon and the pigs because they know better and have your best interests at heart. Don't question anything. They are allowed to drink whiskey and live in the house because they have the burden of running things, the rest get to live in the barn.

And while I feel people are waking up to the fraud, too many still believe.



Droughts and tree diseases would be explained. Tree rings are taken from around the world from both hemispheres, not just from one forest, so disease and drought are factored out. And the tree ring data is correlated with all of the other data collection methods (ice cores, corals, etc) as well to reduce the error to well below 1 degree. When scientists publish studies, they also publish error bars to indicate their certainty based on scientific methods (such as the number of samples, measurement errors, etc). They actually understand that they are dealing with an inexact science based on estimates. That's why the graphs continue to get honed and changed as new data sets and studies are published.

And if you believe that is useless, then you might as well fire historians and archaeologists too as I guess the past doesn't matter.

I don't laugh at the preacher on TV, but I still waiting for evidence of the existence of Noah's ark.

I think it's great that there are climate change doubters. It keeps the scientists on their toes.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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January 10th, 2014 at 6:03:31 PM permalink
Follow the money on this issue. You can control an oil field and a coal mine, but once green energy grabs hold, power becomes decentralized. No meters, no money. Energy was so cheap, all us oil babies from the last 100+ years are spoiled and don't know how to live without it. Everything is peak so it's really going to cause some problems until we get out in space and grab the relative infinity of energy and materials.
I am a robot.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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January 10th, 2014 at 6:31:17 PM permalink
Quote: paisiello


Another poor analogy. There is a well developed science that is open to inspection by anyone willing to take the time to do so. No one is going to be executed simply because they don't understand the science.



The ones who get "executed" are not the ones who do not understand it but rather the ones who do now swallow the fish tale. In the 1960s scientists said we would be starving by now. In the 1970s they said we would be freezing in the dark because we would be out of oil by now. Fools fall for the new "scare" every 10-15 years.

The most sure sign it is false is how the believers will do all they can to not even let the other side speak anymore. From firing scientists to newspapers not publishing letters I stand by my "Animal Farm" reference. Al Gore lives in a mansion but you are supposed to live small.

No thanks, I'll take common sense.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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January 10th, 2014 at 7:44:51 PM permalink
Isn't there more money to be made with the status quo? The less energy available, the more you pay. Who really knows what is available really I leave open, because the supply is controlled by just a few companies. Deep water horizon might have had so much oil it could have massively depressed oil prices. Who knows?
I am a robot.
24Bingo
24Bingo
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
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January 11th, 2014 at 1:22:17 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

In the 1960s scientists said we would be starving by now. In the 1970s they said we would be freezing in the dark because we would be out of oil by now.



And we would be, except that people believed them and did something about it. The reason you're not starving in front of a wood stove right now is because Norman Borlaug and a bevy of other engineers didn't listen to people like you, and you spit the fact that you're still alive back into the faces of the people who saved you.

You can have all the whiskey you like, but you keep pouring it out, saying it's the worst beer you've ever tasted.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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January 11th, 2014 at 6:20:18 AM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

And we would be, except that people believed them and did something about it. The reason you're not starving in front of a wood stove right now is because Norman Borlaug and a bevy of other engineers didn't listen to people like you, and you spit the fact that you're still alive back into the faces of the people who saved you.

You can have all the whiskey you like, but you keep pouring it out, saying it's the worst beer you've ever tasted.



Actually we didn't really "do something about it" anymore than let things take care of themselves. Majors and wildcatters always drilled wells, and they kept doing so. Farmers always farmers always farmed and kept doing so. Methods improved but they had been improving for years.

Consider the following my common-sense position/manifesto on the entire global-warming hoax:

1. The temperature on the Earth has *never* been stable over more than a hundred years or so and never will be
2. Measurements before accurate readings cannot be compared to today's numbers
3. Even among accurate reading you have to be careful how you compare as in the 1950s weather stations started migrating from towns to airports which can easily cause a 1-2 degree difference, even for just a few miles.
4. You cannot take a trend of even 100 years in a 4.5 billion year old planet and get anything meaningful out of it. Humans like to think their lifetime has meaning, but we are but an irritation to the planet in our brief time here.
5. The Sun has more of an effect than CO2 and cannot be separated to get the effects of each. This is the case even when scientists guess as they have been on so-called global warming.
6. There is no reason at all to assume the temperature we are at today is the "right" temperature nor is there reason to assume just a little warmer will mean "severe" weather. Colder might mean more "severe" weather.
7. "Severe weather" has always happened. Global Warming believers make out that we never had a tornado, hurricane, wildfire, snow, or anything else before global warming was "discovered" in the early 1980s.
8. When "deniers" make fun of #7 then all of the sudden the believers say, "one event does not break the theory."
9. Since the 1980s I have heard we might not see snow or cold by now, it is still here. "The Future" always seems 30 years out yet the weather I feel has never changed. Spring/Summer/Fall/Winter all come on schedule. Sure sometimes we have a "late spring" or "Indian Summer" but this has always happened as Mother Nature does not follow our calendar but rather her own.
10. The biggest preachers of lowering my "carbon footprint" whatever on earth that is supposed to be live in mansions and fly on private jets. Sorry if I do not give them a pass for "offsets.:"

I could go on and on and could even write a book. Of course I expect the reply to be "STFU and listen to the scientists! FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BETTER!"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

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