Poll

55 votes (70.51%)
13 votes (16.66%)
5 votes (6.41%)
2 votes (2.56%)
3 votes (3.84%)

78 members have voted

beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
  • Threads: 99
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March 26th, 2014 at 6:42:13 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

also if you are that worried about it looking bad for you then people like gr8 that refuse to spell out what they do should be nuked for trolling.



Several other people have weighed in with thoughts similar to mine, so I will shorten my response to say that I think the forum does a great service to those looking for advice on systems by debunking them. If the snake oil salesman is selling a magic elixir with a proprietary formula and making healing claims about it, and the local chemist can publish test results analyzing it as mineral oil with wintergreen and eucalyptus extracts, then people have the opportunity to think rationally about the product, not just emotionally about whether it can heal their sick mother.

Systems are about satifying emotional needs for riches, power, advantages over institutions or other people; gaming mathematics are about rationalizing expectations. Providing the opportunity for debate and contrast is valuable and somewhat unique to this forum. It errs, if at all, on the side of free speech, and provides a learning opportunity for those who are genuinely curious or in doubt.

If people hold beliefs beyond the demonstration of logical fallacy, whether for entertainment or self-delusion, there's not a lot that can be done for them. However, if someone's trying to decide whether to buy the snake oil, this forum as a chemist's shop can make them a smarter gambler and save them some money. So, as a player's advocate, I think having real people discuss these things with those who have the skills and credentials to debunk their systems, methodologies, or mathematics is one of your prime reasons for having the forum, and the pipeline should not be shut off.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
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March 26th, 2014 at 6:55:45 PM permalink
This doesn't affect me at all.

But I voted against any restrictions on general principles: overall more freedom is always better. Also to avoid seeing people suspended for posting about systems (you know they will), and to avoid discussing the issue afterwards.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
endermike
endermike
Joined: Dec 10, 2013
  • Threads: 7
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March 26th, 2014 at 6:56:21 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I just think either requiring a disclaimer or disallowing the self-referential crap would be more than sufficient.

I think a disclaimer would be appropriate. Can you allow moderators to insert a form post wherever they see fit saying something like:
"WoO and WoV do not endorse any betting system. Betting systems can change the distribution of results but they can not change the house edge. You will over time lose the same amount of money flat betting the same amount every hand as any betting system's average bet."

Quote: Mission146

Just give us the order in which the bets are placed and what criteria must be satisfied for the bet to be made, and we will happily pounce on it like a pack of starving wolves on a three-legged cat. We LOVE destroying the tenaciously held beliefs of others!!!

This is in essence my view. I would change "tenaciously held" to "provably false", but the overall idea is the same. I enjoy creating simulations (it's what I'm paid to do). There currently are more than enough members of this board willing to illustrate the downfall of any betting system.

Quote: Mission146

For those who don't want to offer specifics as to system mechanics, you're trolling, there's the Log Out button, don't let it hit you in the derriere on the way out.

+1. This has been my biggest problem with most of those debates. I am willing to post my code or analysis upon request to anyone, I only ask for a fair trade. The day I refuse to post code, delete my related posts, and start sounding like I'm in witness protection is the day that you can be sure I discovered how to turn lead into gold. If I exhibit those behaviors, I think nuking my account would be not only reasonable, but welcome. I would want no mention of my exploits.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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March 26th, 2014 at 7:12:40 PM permalink
There was a time on the Internet when people asked if you read the FAQ after some clueless posting. Extensive FAQs were there to cover the same old questions that occur over and over without starting from square one every time.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
  • Threads: 132
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March 26th, 2014 at 7:28:14 PM permalink
Quote: endermike

I think a disclaimer would be appropriate. Can you allow moderators to insert a form post wherever they see fit saying something like:
"WoO and WoV do not endorse any betting system. Betting systems can change the distribution of results but they can not change the house edge. You will over time lose the same amount of money flat betting the same amount every hand as any betting system's average bet."



Absolutely, we can Edit whatever we want into, or out of, any post already.

Quote:

This is in essence my view. I would change "tenaciously held" to "provably false", but the overall idea is the same. I enjoy creating simulations (it's what I'm paid to do). There currently are more than enough members of this board willing to illustrate the downfall of any betting system.



Exactly!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gpac1377
gpac1377
Joined: Apr 7, 2013
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 676
March 26th, 2014 at 7:58:10 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Several other people have weighed in with thoughts similar to mine, so I will shorten my response to say that I think the forum does a great service to those looking for advice on systems by debunking them. If the snake oil salesman is selling a magic elixir with a proprietary formula and making healing claims about it, and the local chemist can publish test results analyzing it as mineral oil with wintergreen and eucalyptus extracts, then people have the opportunity to think rationally about the product, not just emotionally about whether it can heal their sick mother.

Systems are about satifying emotional needs for riches, power, advantages over institutions or other people; gaming mathematics are about rationalizing expectations. Providing the opportunity for debate and contrast is valuable and somewhat unique to this forum. It errs, if at all, on the side of free speech, and provides a learning opportunity for those who are genuinely curious or in doubt.

If people hold beliefs beyond the demonstration of logical fallacy, whether for entertainment or self-delusion, there's not a lot that can be done for them. However, if someone's trying to decide whether to buy the snake oil, this forum as a chemist's shop can make them a smarter gambler and save them some money. So, as a player's advocate, I think having real people discuss these things with those who have the skills and credentials to debunk their systems, methodologies, or mathematics is one of your prime reasons for having the forum, and the pipeline should not be shut off.


Exactly this.

I voted against both.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
kenarman
kenarman
Joined: Nov 22, 2009
  • Threads: 28
  • Posts: 966
March 26th, 2014 at 8:10:22 PM permalink
I voted against both since open discussion should actually provide education to those who might otherwise fall for the snake oil salesmans line.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
OntheButton
OntheButton
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 16
March 26th, 2014 at 8:19:04 PM permalink
Quote: kenarman

I voted against both since open discussion should actually provide education to those who might otherwise fall for the snake oil salesmans line.

I for one learn alot from people disproving or at least refuteing people schemes. I also have learned a lot about craps from the dice controll discussions. I don't believe it is possible to control dice but the discussion has been educational for me.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
March 26th, 2014 at 8:21:25 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

There was a time on the Internet when people asked if you read the FAQ after some clueless posting. Extensive FAQs were there to cover the same old questions that occur over and over without starting from square one every time.



They did about as much good as telling people to RT<BLEEP!>M.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
March 26th, 2014 at 8:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

For those who don't want to offer specifics as to system mechanics, you're trolling, there's the Log Out button, don't let it hit you in the derriere on the way out.


This works, under the assumption that you're also committed to removing trolls from the forum.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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