tringlomane
tringlomane
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August 17th, 2013 at 6:47:32 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Supposedly the minimum payback is supposed to be 2% higher than the minimum in NJ by an unwritten rule referenced in Steve Bourie's "Are Slot Machines Honest".



In reality, this unwritten rule is probably always enforced in practice. The terrible payouts at the D long bar still qualify under this rule.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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August 17th, 2013 at 7:00:43 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

In reality, this unwritten rule is probably always enforced in practice. The terrible payouts at the D long bar still qualify under this rule.


I had meant to specify on VP machines and have since edited.
I am a robot.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 17th, 2013 at 9:14:09 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Playing a machine like that would guarantee the actual return would be below 75% if the optimal percentage is 75.00%, but the law as currently written in Nevada, the actual return on skill machines are irrelevant.

14.040 Minimum standards for gaming devices. All gaming devices submitted for approval:
1. Must theoretically pay out a mathematically demonstrable percentage of all amounts
wagered, which must not be less than 75 percent for each wager available for play on the device.
(a) Gaming devices that may be affected by player skill must meet this standard when using a
method of play that will provide the greatest return to the player over a period of continuous play.

http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2921

Also GLI standards confirm this:

http://www.gaminglabs.com/downloads/GLI%20Standards/Bill%20E%202011/GLI-11%20v2.1.pdf

3.4.1 Software Requirements for Percentage Payout. Each game shall theoretically payout a
minimum of seventy-five percent (75%) during the expected lifetime of the game (i.e.,
progressives, bonus systems, merchandise, etc. shall not be included in the percentage payout if
they are external to the game).
a) Optimum Play Used for Skill Games. Gaming devices that may be affected by player
skill shall meet the requirement of this section when using a method of play that will
provide the greatest return to the player over a period of continuous play.

There is no rule mandating that skill-based electronic gaming machines must return 75% to the player in actual use. They must only be expected to do so under optimal play.

So NV casinos could offer a game like this if they wished:

Royal 800
SF 65
4K 25
FH 6
Flush 5
Str. 4
3K 2
2P 1
JoB 1

That paytable returns 75.06% optimally.

And depending on how strict gaming is on rounding, they possibly could offer this game with a SF of 60 because the return of that is 74.9995%...haha They definitely can offer 61 for 1 on SF (75.01%).

The good news is, competition in the market is too high in NV to offer such a poor game. And competition is generally too high in the rest of the country where states offer 80 to 90% minimum returns. And even if they did offer the game ignoring any competition issues, it would likely to be stupid to do so because you would lose so consistently and quickly, even the biggest addicts won't play. The worst game I have actually have seen in the casinos so far might still be 6/5 DDB (94.66% max), I have heard the D offers 8/5 Bonus with a 1 for 1 2 pair payout though (86.31% max).

Is that a real payable somewhere? Whats the lowest payback IGT offers on VP in NV? I had no clue the D had a VP game plat payed so horrible that's absolutely disgusting. I wonder how much action they get? Don't answer it may give other bars ideas.

I have see information on how all this is written however I was told they would not approve anything with a strategy that was so complex that it would defiantly fall below the %75 with average play over a long period of time. Certainly that dose not include the blind guy who just hits random buttons. Hell if they allowed this Someone could just come up with some 101% chess type VP game or Tetris VP ( advertising 101%payback) that only a few people in the world could play it optimally. I understand that they can call something 99.9% payback only with optimal play
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tringlomane
tringlomane
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August 17th, 2013 at 9:30:29 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Is that a real payable somewhere? Whats the lowest payback IGT offers on VP in NV? I had no clue the D had a VP game plat payed so horrible that's absolutely disgusting. I wonder how much action they get? Don't answer it may give other bars ideas.

I have see information on how all this is written however I was told they would not approve anything with a strategy that was so complex that it would defiantly fall below the %75 with average play over a long period of time. Certainly that dose not include the blind guy who just hits random buttons. Hell if they allowed this Someone could just come up with some 101% chess type VP game or Tetris VP ( advertising 101%payback) that only a few people in the world could play it optimally. I understand that they can call something 99.9% payback only with optimal play



Oh hell no, I made that paytable up to show what a minimally legal paytable would possibly look like, don't worry. :)

As far as the D is concerned, I have also heard the same bar offers 8/6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (98.49%), so not all games there are bad. But that bonus game may be one of the worst in the country. I have yet to see worse than 6/5 DDB myself.
soulhunt79
soulhunt79
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August 17th, 2013 at 10:54:21 PM permalink
Would the game have to return 75%+ for all possible coin in options or would number of coins played be a choice just like throwing away a dealt royal is a choice?
tringlomane
tringlomane
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August 17th, 2013 at 10:58:22 PM permalink
Quote: soulhunt79

Would the game have to return 75%+ for all possible coin in options or would number of coins played be a choice just like throwing away a dealt royal is a choice?



All coin options. So the table I wrote as an example wouldn't work if the Royal paid 250 for 1.
djatc
djatc
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August 18th, 2013 at 12:27:52 AM permalink
I stopped off a bar in Oregon and saw a really horrible paytable, and it's a VLT. Something like 2400 coins for a royal on a 10 coin game. Nobody was playing it but it probably gets some dummies that hop on these things.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
miplet
miplet
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August 18th, 2013 at 1:58:03 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I don't think this is totally true where skill is involved. lets say they Minimum payback in NV is 75% I don't believe they can put in a Video poker machine that is exactly 75%. I believe they must base it on how the average player would play. For instance they could not make a game that had 1 and only 1 payback lets say a large amount for a straight flush and they set the payout to total exactly 75% payback, The strategy would be to complex for a normal person to play, almost guaranteeing the machine would fall below the minimum requirement.


Paying 2180 for Royal and Straight Flushes would pay back 75.0014%. The strategy isn't that hard either. 2900 gets you to 99.7726
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
tringlomane
tringlomane
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August 18th, 2013 at 10:17:44 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I stopped off a bar in Oregon and saw a really horrible paytable, and it's a VLT. Something like 2400 coins for a royal on a 10 coin game. Nobody was playing it but it probably gets some dummies that hop on these things.



Yeah, Oregon VLTs are generally horrible (often 91% or so), but they are at least from a fair poker deck unlike some VLTs. Illinois VGTs in bars/restaurants caps wins at 2000 quarters and you can bet up to 8 quarters. With the max bet, usually any straight flush wins $500 as well because the overall return of the game needs to increase with bigger wagers. Illinois also offers better games than Oregon, including 6/5 Bonus, 6/5 Super DDB, and 7/5 Super Aces, and even a $500 Royal version of Shockwave that's about 97%. Most ppl play slots on these though, as they do in Oregon.

Quote: miplet

Paying 2180 for Royal and Straight Flushes would pay back 75.0014%. The strategy isn't that hard either. 2900 gets you to 99.7726



Yeah the strategy isn't hard when a Straight flush is the only winning hand. It's when you make higher SF payouts mix in with all the other payouts that makes the game more difficult. Here is the strategy when you max bet the best game Illinois bars have to offer. It's still easier than All American probably, but the high straight flush makes things more tricky.

Royal Flush 250
Straight Flush 250
Four Aces 250
Four 2's, 3's, 4's 90
Four 5's through K's 55
Full House 7
Flush 5
Straight 4
Three of a Kind 3
Two Pair 1
Jacks or Better 1
Nothing 0
Return: 97.97%

The following table shows the basic strategy:

Basic Strategy
Type of Play Play Details
4 of a Kind AAAA
Pat Hand Four 5's through K's; Four 2's, 3's, 4's; Straight Flush; Royal Flush
3 of a Kind AAA
4 to a Straight Flush A234; A235; A245; A345; 2345; 2346; 2356; 2456; 3456; 3457; 3467; 4567...
Pat Hand Full House
4 to a Royal Flush TJQA; TJQK; TJKA; TQKA; JQKA
4 to a Straight Flush 9TJK; 9JQK
4 to a Straight Flush 79TJ; 89JQ
4 to a Straight Flush 679T; 789J
4 to a Straight Flush 3567; 5789; 678T; 689T; 78TJ; 89TQ; 8TJQ; 9TQK
3 of a Kind 222; 333; 444; 555; 666; 777; 888; 999; TTT; JJJ; QQQ; KKK
Pat Hand Straight; Flush
1 Pair AA
2 Pair 2233; 2244; 2255; 2266; 2277; 2288; 2299; 22TT; 22JJ; 22QQ; 22KK; 3344...
1 Pair JJ; QQ; KK
4 to a Flush 2347; 2348; 2349; 234T; 234J; 234Q; 234K; 2357; 2358; 2359; 235T; 235J...
3 to a Royal Flush TJQ; TJK; TQK; JQA; JQK; JKA; QKA
3 to a Straight Flush 234; 345; 346; 456; 567; 678; 679; 689; 789; 78T; 79T; 89T; 89J; 8TJ...
1 Pair 44
3 to a Straight Flush 235; 356; 568; 578
1 Pair 33
3 to a Straight Flush 245; 457; 467
1 Pair 22
4 to a Straight 9TJQ; TJQK
3 to a Royal Flush TJA; TQA; TKA
3 to a Straight Flush 8JQ; 9JK; 9QK
4 to a Straight 89TJ; JQKA
1 Pair 55; 66; 77; 88; 99; TT
4 to a Straight 2345; 3456; 4567; 5678; 6789; 789T
3 to a Straight Flush A23; A24; A25; A34; A35; A45; 569; 579; 589; 67T; 68T; 69T; 78J; 79J...
2 to a Royal Flush JQ
3 to a Straight Flush 236; 246; 256; 347; 357; 367; 458; 468; 478
4 to a Straight TJQA; TQKA
4 to a Straight 8TJQ; 9JQK; TJKA
2 to a Royal Flush JA; JK; QA; QK; KA
3 to a Straight JQK
4 to a Straight 89JQ; 9TJK; 9TQK
2 to a Straight JQ
Single Card an Ace
2 to a Royal Flush TJ
2 to a Straight JK; QK
Single Card a Jack; a King
2 to a Royal Flush TQ
Single Card a Queen
4 to a Straight 2346; 2356; 2456; 3457; 3467; 3567; 4568; 4578; 4678; 5679; 5689; 5789...
2 to a Straight Flush 9T
2 to a Straight Flush 45
2 to a Straight Flush 89
Garbage Discard everything

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