Scotty71
Scotty71
Joined: Mar 5, 2011
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October 27th, 2011 at 9:34:20 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm


Sure they hate the fact that they have a bunch of disciplined craps bettors at the table, but they are still making their HE. Bottom line is they don't care what side anyone bets.



I appreciate the math you and M.E. put out. I don't think the house cares too much either... as in the 6/6 scenario they are guaranteed a profit or at least no loss on the session. As a market person I love the fact that craps can be a game where you can go long and short so to speak and the house doesn't have to take all the heat on the action.

Two quick questions regarding LV craps tables.

1. Do a majority of LV tables on charge the comm on the buy and lay only on wins? Where I play in IL you pay when you put it up.
2. I understand in crapless craps there is no dont. Can you still buy and lay numbers?
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because." E.E. Cummings
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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October 28th, 2011 at 5:20:25 AM permalink
Let's not forget that right bettors and wrong bettors will tend to find some of their chips sucked into the black hole at the center of the table.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
RoyalBJ
RoyalBJ
Joined: Jul 18, 2011
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October 28th, 2011 at 11:00:03 AM permalink
Quote: Switch

Hold is also time-dependent as well.

Imagine this; you sit down at a Blackjack table that has a 1% house edge. You cash in $500 and the casino records this as the 'drop'. You now play 4 hours of Blackjack at 100 hands/hour with a $25 wager.

Your expected loss per hand is 25c and this equates to 100x25c per hour = $25 so, after 4 hours you are 'expected' to lose $100. If this happens then the casino records the 'win' as $100. To calculate the hold % you divide 'casino win'/drop = 100/500 = 20%.

So, despite being a 1% house edge game, the hold %, in this example, is 20%.



Switch, This way of calculation would be different from "House Hold = Win / Drop" Say for the $500 buy-in, I lost $300 in 4 hours on the table, So, Win/Drop = $300/$500 = 60%. Is the hold 20% or 60%? Which is right? Or there is no right or wrong, it just that every casino uses different definition...
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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October 28th, 2011 at 11:43:14 AM permalink
All casinos use the same definition. In your scenario You dropped $500 (drop meaning bought in) and you lost $300 (left with $200), for a house win of $300 and a house hold of 60%.

If every player played perfectly and only played exactly $100 worth of bets and then left the casino, the house would hold whatever the house edge is on the game over the long haul. The fact that you play hundreds of dollars worth of wagers on your $100 buy in (your winnings get recycled as bets), is the reason the hold percentage is always much higher than the house edge on a game.

So if you are giving up a 2% house edge on every hundred wagered, you might go through $1,000 of wagers on your $100 buy in. This would be an expected hold of 20% (2% x $1,000 in wagers).

Bottom line... you can't win in the long run, even on a game that has a house edge of .5%. Play for the entertainment value.

Zcore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
RoyalBJ
RoyalBJ
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October 31st, 2011 at 9:27:35 AM permalink
If I buy in $1000 (drop) and lose $100, the hold is 10%. On the other hand, for the same session if I had bought in only $300 and with the loss of $100, then the hold would become 33%. Which number is used by the casino? I always buy in a lot (and not using them) to get good comp. So, I have been reducing the house holds all these times??? Sorry, gaming people.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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October 31st, 2011 at 2:43:40 PM permalink
Most Casinos dont comp based on buy in on Table Games. It's usually done by average bet and legnth of play. In your case, if I was in the Pit and you always bought in for way more than you were willing to risk, I would reduce your average bet to lower than it really was, just because you were trying to pull one over on me (in your mind) and I don't like that.

The difference in the hold percentage in both of your cases is miniscule compared to the millions dropped, so that makes no difference either way.
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
RoyalBJ
RoyalBJ
Joined: Jul 18, 2011
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October 31st, 2011 at 2:50:47 PM permalink
Sorry to hear you don't like that. I gamble to entertain myself, not to be liked in the Pit. => In my own casino, I want players to buy in more. Based on my years' of experience, when they buy more, they ALWAYS gamble more. I comp them more, leaving player to control their own temptations.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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October 31st, 2011 at 3:15:04 PM permalink
Your years of experience must make you much more knowledgeable than the thousands and thousands of years combined experience of all the Casinos that base comps on average bet and time played and not buy in, so that someone doesn't buy in for $5,000 and then play $5 per hand for a short time and get lots of comp value without risking any amount of money. Good luck at your Casino.
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
RoyalBJ
RoyalBJ
Joined: Jul 18, 2011
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October 31st, 2011 at 3:19:13 PM permalink
Thanks for the kind words. It has been working great.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:07:38 PM permalink
The hold is usually quite high, consider a £5 table, people will tend to buy in for £100. If they lose, notes come out the back pocket and another £100 goes down the slot. So players on a losing streak will have given their entire stack.

Winners, I'm guessing, may always have been ahead and thus only needed their initial one buy-in.

On other tables where higher than even money can be paid out, I would hope that players walk following a good win (otherwise they're going to press until they do, or just gamble on). In that case a player might have had many buy-ins before getting lucky.


Of course what the casino want is (a) you buy-in and play until it's all gone (b) you don't mind losing the amount of your buy-in, feel you;ve had a good evening and are happy to come back again (c) occasionally you get lucky and actually win though not too often (d) you repeat same regularly, perhaps every week! If you can't play blackjack well, even better!

What they hate is the "don't" player who buys in and (a) is happy and walks away with a small win (b) occasionally loses their entire stack (c) plays perfect strategy and occupies a chair that could be better filled by a mug punter (d) feels quite bad after a loss and waits a month or so before coming back.

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