Garnabby
Joined: Aug 14, 2010
• Posts: 197
August 22nd, 2010 at 3:14:33 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

You're missing something rather significant. The back wall the dice hit, air currents, phases of the moon, duck farts within a ten mile radius, etc. are all randomizing elements. When you add a randomizing element to a biased outcome, the bias remains.

One from the start, the house-edge? Unlike in roulette eg, there can be no inherently-useful craps-table bias(es). Material defects in the dice eg, which are often and easily changed up, pose only another problem for a so-called A-P thrower.

The mathematical formulas for adding up the linear and non-linear deviations for such experiments, in theory, can be quite-complex but are almost always exponential. Sarcasm aside, many small details can thusly add up quickly... certainly nothing like, "Wrongs canceling out to make right." Eg, even super-computers programmed with well-proved, pure, meteorological models and data often fail to predict next month's overall weather, in practice. (In Canada over the past several years, successful financial analysts had thrice predicted a long-term, above-par dollar with the States... it didn't happen once, and nobody's commented.)

Quote: mkl654321

If you reread my original post, I attempted to impart a spin to the dice that would be strong enough to persist until they came to rest. That spin would persist even after the dice were reflected off the back wall. What is confusing you is that the true significance of the unusual trajectory is NOT the dice's movement along the X axis, but rather, their rotation around the Y axis.

Three axes of rotation and translation (in a non-static, non-closed system). Eg, spin is spin in any combination of those directions... and shall "persist until coming to rest". The problem is to which #'s, depending on those positions throughout the throw. And because no one can predict with significant accuracy in which way(s) any throw shall diverge, there is also no way to likewise predict which other-than-tried-for outcome. Loss of control of the positions of the #'s nullifies the applying of that rotation to direct the throw in another way. That's why they tell us to "pump the brakes" over icy patches, train pilots how to (try to) avoid/recover from a "death spiral", etc.

Anyway, the persons with the expertise to possibly accomplish such feats wouldn't be wasting their time on such games, much less the "well-engineered" casinos who sponser those. It's 1000 times easier to devise and maintain those games otherwise unbiased than to play "catch up". Much like eg, we all have a bigger reading vocabulary than spoken. (We can easily recognize, given some help, what's often only on the "tip of our tongues".)

EDIT: To put all this a better way, each dot on a die will rotate many times further than the die, itself, will move until coming to rest. So how on earth is one going to have the dots ending up near where one wants, when even a tiny distance one way or other has the die turned around completely?
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
• Posts: 5994
August 23rd, 2010 at 12:17:53 PM permalink
mkl,

You are following the rules when throwing, so you shouldn't be experiencing any heat at all -- as long as the dice are hitting the back wall, you shouldn't be getting any scrutiny for anything. Every casino believes that the back wall sufficiently randomizes dice rolls and therefore your throw should not matter, no matter how many points you make.

If the box person is looking at the dice, it is standard practice for them to do so after a number of points have been made. It could also depend on the casino that you go to as well. Some like to sweat the money and to somehow believe that breaking up the game has an effect on the outcome.

But this goes to you as well. I'm thinking about the momentum change of dice when they hit the back wall. Assume for a second that you have no x momentum at all and all of your dice momentum is in the y direction, meaning that the outside numbers remain outside when the dice hit the wall.

So what happens when the dice hit the wall? First off, there is an immediate momentum change which can be equated based on the angle that the dice hit the back wall. If the back wall was flat, there would be change only in the y direction (provided that the angle of your throw was zero degrees). The back wall is not flat however, at all. In fact, the only place where it is flat is on the very end of the diamonds. Therefore, the effect of the back wall is to impart some change in momentum in the x direction, creating spin to the left and right. The energy of the dice is then reduced by the air resistance, the back wall, and finally, the craps table itself. Because the back wall imparts spin in the x axis, the table will also introduce more spin in the x direction. With the dice now off axis because of spin on both axes, you get a truly randomized result. And because you are importing a strong energy into your throw, the only thing that energy can do is to have more bounces which means more randomness.

Might I suggest that you are just lucky?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
• Posts: 3412
August 23rd, 2010 at 3:52:33 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

So what happens when the dice hit the wall? Might I suggest that you are just lucky?

I don't know enough about the physics to be certain, but it would seem to me that if an object is rotating around one axis and moving along another, and it hits a stationary object and deflects, what is altered is the vector of movement, not the RELATIVE angle of rotation---that rotation/spin will still be perpendicular to the new vector of movement. Now, some of that energy is converted into a y-axis spin that partially, but not totally, offsets the original x-axis spin; the object is now "tumbling" rather than just spinning. But the effect of the original x-axis apin remains, due to the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum.

In any case, I freely admit that I don't have nearly enough trials to draw any definitive conclusions. I also realize that the scrutiny I've been getting is just due to casino paranoia--if somebody is winning, he's probably cheating, since nobody wins in OUR casino (so they reason). I've had good results, not so good that I want to sell the kids and move to Vegas, but interesting nonetheless.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
cclub79
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
• Posts: 1147
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:55:32 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I don't know enough about the physics to be certain, but it would seem to me that if an object is rotating around one axis and moving along another, and it hits a stationary object and deflects, what is altered is the vector of movement, not the RELATIVE angle of rotation---that rotation/spin will still be perpendicular to the new vector of movement. Now, some of that energy is converted into a y-axis spin that partially, but not totally, offsets the original x-axis spin; the object is now "tumbling" rather than just spinning. But the effect of the original x-axis apin remains, due to the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum.

In any case, I freely admit that I don't have nearly enough trials to draw any definitive conclusions. I also realize that the scrutiny I've been getting is just due to casino paranoia--if somebody is winning, he's probably cheating, since nobody wins in OUR casino (so they reason). I've had good results, not so good that I want to sell the kids and move to Vegas, but interesting nonetheless.

It's counter to everything I've faced while setting and winning. Most of the time I've gotten compliments from the Pit. They like to watch and they seem to enjoy it, and I tip well when I'm shooting well. I usually do it quickly, and I have never in many years been asked to stop setting or "speed up" my throws. It seems that most of them like the game too, and while the casinos' policies have no problem with the setting, I'm sure some are curious.
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
• Posts: 10626
August 23rd, 2010 at 6:07:20 PM permalink
Some magicians can throw playing cards with great accuracy. So, exerting control over something with lots and lots of practice is possible, even something not very aerodynamic as a playing card. And a couple jugglers do odd things like juggle a chainsaw, a watermelon and a golf ball (another example of good hand/eye control).

However, I'm not seen one incorporate a craps roll as a demonstration that they can manipulate dice to extent needed to use it in a game. Although… perhaps it can be done, but not to the degree that would impress an audience.
The Hall of Unverified Claims is a vast place with many shelves.
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
• Posts: 5994
August 23rd, 2010 at 7:33:43 PM permalink
I'm trying to think about your backspin. How can you ensure that your spin does not have any y axis rotation? Just because you whip them with backspin at the back wall doesn't mean you don't have any y axis spin in that roll. And when it does hit that back wall, momentum will transfer according where the dice hits the pyramids. My thoughts is that the more energy in your throw, the more random it will be.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
• Posts: 5522
August 23rd, 2010 at 7:34:41 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

It's counter to everything I've faced while setting and winning. Most of the time I've gotten compliments from the Pit. They like to watch and they seem to enjoy it, and I tip well when I'm shooting well. I usually do it quickly, and I have never in many years been asked to stop setting or "speed up" my throws. It seems that most of them like the game too, and while the casinos' policies have no problem with the setting, I'm sure some are curious.

These examples provide a useful illustration of casino management. Recently I was at a casino in West Virginia (of all places), and a guy was pressing the six and eight and eventually reached the max of \$500 and was hitting it. I have never seen a more enthusiastic boxman. He was slapping fives with the shooter, jumping out of his seat, etc. Later, I came back on a different shift, shot a bit myself, and made four unique points. The boxman started checking the dice, telling me to hit the back wall (I throw short when I'm nervous sometimes), etc.
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Now, which method is going to entice the winner to come back to that casino and lose his winnings there, rather than somewhere else?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Garnabby
Joined: Aug 14, 2010
• Posts: 197
August 23rd, 2010 at 7:38:14 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Some magicians can throw playing cards with great accuracy. So, exerting control over something with lots and lots of practice is possible, even something not very aerodynamic as a playing card. And a couple jugglers do odd things like juggle a chainsaw, a watermelon and a golf ball (another example of good hand/eye control).

However, I'm not seen one incorporate a craps roll as a demonstration that they can manipulate dice to extent needed to use it in a game. Although… perhaps it can be done, but not to the degree that would impress an audience.

Perhaps the reason it's called magic, buskering, etc, with the concomitant build-up and juxtaposition? There's a lot of kung fu stuff in the movies, but in real life, martial artists know better than to challenge someone with a knife or handgun unless it's absolutely-necessary.

Persons who have trained since childhood, and who would be the first to admit there are known limits... even for them. In particular, i recall the retired stage- magician and mentalist, "The Amazing Kreskin" having remarked something like, "There is no such thing as hypnosis, only some very-suggestible persons." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreskin )
Why bet at all, if you can be sure? Anyway, what constitutes a "good bet"? - The best slots-game in town; a sucker's edge; or some gray-area blackjack-stunts? (P.S. God doesn't even have to exist to be God.)
TIMSPEED
Joined: Aug 11, 2010
• Posts: 1246
August 23rd, 2010 at 9:36:55 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

These examples provide a useful illustration of casino management. Recently I was at a casino in West Virginia (of all places), and a guy was pressing the six and eight and eventually reached the max of \$500 and was hitting it. I have never seen a more enthusiastic boxman. He was slapping fives with the shooter, jumping out of his seat, etc. Later, I came back on a different shift, shot a bit myself, and made four unique points. The boxman started checking the dice, telling me to hit the back wall (I throw short when I'm nervous sometimes), etc.
-----------------------
Now, which method is going to entice the winner to come back to that casino and lose his winnings there, rather than somewhere else?

I see that every weekend in Reno...eventually you learn which boxmen are just assholes, and which actually like the game of craps (one boxman flat out told me he hated craps and hated people who THOUGHT they could shoot with some skill)
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
• Posts: 3412
August 23rd, 2010 at 10:59:21 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I'm trying to think about your backspin. How can you ensure that your spin does not have any y axis rotation? Just because you whip them with backspin at the back wall doesn't mean you don't have any y axis spin in that roll. And when it does hit that back wall, momentum will transfer according where the dice hits the pyramids. My thoughts is that the more energy in your throw, the more random it will be.

I throw with the palm down, and the dice set so that they are side-by-side, with the inner faces touching. Then I release the dice with a sharp upward motion of the wrist.

It doesn't matter if there is any Y axis rotation or not, so long as the X axis rotation is still predominant---in theory, enough asymmetrical rotation to establish even a mild bias would be enough to affect the outcome significantly. And the more radial energy--i.e., the faster I throw the dice, the larger the randomizing element; that's why I try to put as much of the total kinetic energy in the spin as possible.

This kind of throw is actually quite difficult to execute, and one thing that's helped me in this regard is my extensive Frisbee experience--the wrist action and release are not dissimilar. To give you an idea of how the dice behave, there have been half a dozen occasions where I short-threw the dice (i.e., didn't hit the back wall, either by accident or design), and the dice hit the felt and STOPPED. One time, I did that to make my point of hard ten, and I swear the boxman nearly had a stroke.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw