ams288
ams288
Joined: Sep 26, 2012
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May 20th, 2014 at 6:52:57 AM permalink
Icky.

I saw this game at Monte Carlo at the end of March.

Being suspicious of new games that I don't know the strategy for, I opted not to play and just casually observe. It did not seem like a fun game. Everyone who played it seemed depressed.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
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May 20th, 2014 at 11:57:13 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

14.77% here in Detroit. Absolutely disgusting!!

And that's if you play your cards right. I can't imagine what it is with how bad many people do play.


It seems like that doesn't bode well for the game, right? If the sheep are getting slaughtered, so to speak, the game probably isn't going to generate that much action.

I can see the immediate appeal of the game, though. Very similar to the for-fun version of poker I played with my friends as kids, which was basically 5 card draw. The second draw is interesting. But with those odds, I'm not really interested in playing it at all!
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
AceTwo
AceTwo
Joined: Mar 13, 2012
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June 5th, 2014 at 1:42:42 PM permalink
When is saw the firts numbers quoted for HE, ie 1,75% then I thought that the game might be beatable with Collusion.
But with a HE of 6,7%, not even with Collusion is beatable, I think
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
Joined: May 29, 2010
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June 6th, 2014 at 6:01:08 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

I'm annoyed that they consider the "element of risk" as the "house edge".



When I have my reports done by them I have them calculate both the HE and the EOR... However, the way they word them is the House Edge per ante wager and House Edge per average bet... The average bet for my game according to them is 1.67 units...

Although, my games the max bet including the side wager is 3 units if the player chooses to play the 2.68% HA, 28.2% hit rate side wager... (who wouldn't place that!)
.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
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June 6th, 2014 at 6:34:23 PM permalink
Quote: jopke

Standard deck reduces to 204087


The standard deck has 134,459 unique hands. This is the number of distinct 5-card hands in this game without jokers.

Next, add the hands with one joker:
4 of a kind (13 of them)
3 of a kind and one card whose suit is in the 3 (13 x 12 = 156 distinct hands; there are 4 suits that can be missing from the 3, and 3 suits for the 1, so each distinct hand has 12 actual hands)
3 of a kind and one card whose suit is not in the 3 (13 x 12 = 156 distinct hands; there are 4 suits that can be missing from the 3, and 1 suit for the 1, so each distinct hand has 4 actual hands)
2 pair, with the suits matching (e.g. As Ah Ks Kh)
2 pair, with one card from each matching suit (As Ah Ks Kc)
2 pair, with no suits matching (As Ah Kc Kd)
2-1-1, with the 1s in the same suit that is also in the pair (As Ah Ks Qs)
2-1-1, with the 1s in the same suit that is not in the pair (As Ah Kc Qc)
2-1-1, with the 1s in different suits, both in the pair (As Ah Ks Qh)
2-1-1, with the 1s in different suits, the higher of which is in the pair (As Ah Ks Qc)
2-1-1, with the 1s in different suits, the lower of which is in the pair (As Ah Kc Qs)
2-1-1, with the 1s in different suits, neither of which is in the pair (As Ah Kc Qd)
No pair - these are broken down by suits:
4 (As Ks Qs Js)
3-1 (As Ks Qs Jh) (the "off" card can be in any of the 4 positions)
2-2 (As Ks Qh Jh) (there are three ways - AABB, ABBA, ans ABAB)
2-1-1 (As Ks Qh Jc) (there are 4 places for the higher single card, and 3 for the lower)
1-1-1-1 (As Kh Qc Jd)

Finally, add the hands with two jokers:
3 of a kind (13 distinct hands; each has 4 possibilities for the missing suit) (As Ah Ac)
Pair and one, with the one's suit in the pair (As Ah Ks)
Pair and one, with the one's suit not in the pair (As Ah Kc)
No pair, suited (As Ks Qs)
No pair, two suited (there are three places for the unsuited card - As Ks Qh, As Kh Qs, Ah Ks Qs)
No pair, three different suits (As Kh Qc)

The hard part is, for each initial deal, you have to take into account each draw; there's no easy way to describe a "perfect" strategy. You might be able to "fudge" a strategy by assuming discarded cards are put back into the deck; you then calculate the result with optimum play for the second draw (0 or 1 card) for each possible hand, then use those numbers to calculate optimum play (0-3 cards) for each of the original hands.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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June 7th, 2014 at 3:26:13 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy



The hard part is, for each initial deal, you have to take into account each draw; there's no easy way to describe a "perfect" strategy. You might be able to "fudge" a strategy by assuming discarded cards are put back into the deck; you then calculate the result with optimum play for the second draw (0 or 1 card) for each possible hand, then use those numbers to calculate optimum play (0-3 cards) for each of the original hands.



I think JB did the first draw pretty well personally.

And the 2nd draw strategy is pretty much...do you have a chance to win? Call.
ams288
ams288
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June 10th, 2014 at 5:51:17 AM permalink
I was in Vegas last week again.

I literally don't think I ever saw one person playing this at Monte Carlo, compared to the last trip where there always seemed to be a large group of suckers trying it out.

This time it was always just a bored dealer standing watch over an empty $5 table.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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June 10th, 2014 at 7:55:19 AM permalink
One problem with the player experience in this game is there is so much of the Return to Player tied up in events that rarely happen. That sort of works for a side bet concept (although I still don't like it in the game design there either), but it I don't think it works for a main game design.

In Double Draw, one of the Wild Royal/Natural Royal/Five Aces happens once every 1300 hands. Those three events contribute 9.5% to the RTP. The overall HE starts off at 6.7%, so you are looking at playing against a 16.2% HE until you hit one of those hands. My guess is the pace of this game with the two drawing opportunities for each player is about 35-40 hands per hour per player. Even if you use 40 HPH, it will take a player over 30 hours of play to ever see one of these three events. In the meantime, they will be getting whacked at a 16%+ HE.

The Monte Carlo is one install that represents a very small sample size. I think Babs had mentioned there were two tables at a property near her in FL that were getting lots of action. As with every new game concept, trial time and results will be determine the verdict. I do think a draw poker concept is a good one and will find a niche in the live table game pit at some point.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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June 10th, 2014 at 8:03:59 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
BobbyMac
BobbyMac
Joined: Jun 23, 2014
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June 23rd, 2014 at 5:24:33 PM permalink
I noticed the strategy has "joker+Ace" ranked above "4 to a Flush having one joker and one Ace". If this is accurate then one would never hold "4 to a Flush having one joker and one Ace" for the first draw. Im also confused as to why TJQA is better than 7Ts but 36s is better than A235. I realize many of these hands run very close and change with straight/flush penalties. So given 36s,A25 what is the best hold? How about 47s,68Q or KJs,AT3? The expected value of first draw hands would be a great addition as well if you have them.

ps. I just found this forum and am very thankful i did. Great work JB

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