Sic Bo - Allowed Betting

I am with Galewind Software. We are building a Sic Bo game, about which I have some questions for which various searches have yet to provide any clear answers. For example:

1. You can "Bet On Total" by selecting one of the table spots labeled 4 through 17. Can you place more than one of these types of bets before the dice roll? That is, in the same round can you bet on a Total of 5, a Total of 10 and a Total of 15?

2. You can bet on a "Fixed Pair" (pair of 1s, pair of 2s, pair of 3s, etc.) Can you bet on more than one "Fixed Pair" per round?

3. You can bet on a "Fixed Triple". Can you bet on more than one "Fixed Triple" per round?

4. You can bet on "Any single number" - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Can you bet on more than one per round?

5. You can bet on "Any two numbers". Can you bet on more than one of these combinations per round?

At the moment it is our conclusion that the bets Big, Small, Odd, Even, "Any Triple", "Any Three" and "Any Four" can only allow one bet per round. For the bets enumerated above, what I have read is not absolutely clear regarding my questions.

Thanks.

Chris Colby

Each of those bets has a built-in house edge. Is there a reason why you'd limit the betting?

My intent was not to limit the player's bets. My intent was to discover whether the "typical house rules" allowed the multiple bets that are included in all of my questions.

That is, if multiple "Bet on Total" bets are typically allowed, then I have no problem allowing them.

Chris

Multiple player bets are allowed.

Quote: Paigowdan

Multiple player bets are allowed.

Yep, they are all independent wagers with various house edges. Sic Bo would be more boring if you couldn't bet on more than one number. :)

I've only played a few times, but in my experience, it's most comparable to roulette, in that you can place any bets you want, including those that seem counter to each other, as long as you bet the house minimums on whichever bet.

Quote: tringlomane

Yep, they are all independent wagers with various house edges. Sic Bo would be more boring if you couldn't bet on more than one number. :)

Massive house edges.

(Except the "big" and "small" bets, which only rise to the level of "hefty.")

Generally yes, but odds could be adjusted to be better than typical B&M casinos if Galewind wished to do so. On some of the wagers, I'd definitely recommend it.

OK then, I will allow for the possibility of:

- The "Bet On Total" could have 14 separate bets.

- The "Fixed Pair" and "Fixed Triple" bets could each have 6 separate bets.

And so forth.

We have yet to finalize our returns for the "Any one Number" (1 occurrence, 2 occurrences, 3 occurrences). The rest of the bets will pay (x to y) as follows (HE in parenthesis):

- Big/Small = 1:1, with Push on Triples (1.39%)
- Odd/Even = 1:1, with Push on Triples (1.39%)
- 4, 17 = 70:1 (1.39%)
- 5, 16 = 34:1 (2.78%)
- 6, 15 = 20:1 (2.78%)
- 7, 14 = 13:1 (2.78%)
- 8, 13 = 9:1 (2.78%)
- 9, 12 = 7:1 (7.41%)
- 10, 11 = 6:1 (12.5%)
- Fixed Pair = 12:1 (3.7%)
- Fixed Triple = 200:1 (6.94%)
- Any Triple = 34:1 (2.78%)
- Any two unique numbers = 6:1 (2.78%)
- Any three unique numbers = 34:1 (2.78%)
- Any four unique Numbers = 15:2 (5.56%)

Chris

where i work you can bet all the bets at once if you like......our sic-bo (we have a huge asian customer base) holds 42%

Quote: ontariodealer

where i work you can bet all the bets at once if you like......our sic-bo (we have a huge asian customer base) holds 42%

42 percent? I'd guess that you would need a huge Asian customer base to keep feeding a table with that low a return. Then again, if the Player wants to play Sic Bo then they're gonna play them some Sic Bo.

We were aiming for a European Roulette return, with the "en prison" rule. Thus the Push, rather than the loss, on the Big, Small, Odd and Even bets.

Chris

I think the payouts look good for the most part, but unfortunately, the easier hitting number bets seem to have have the highest edges. You offer 15:2 for the four number bet. You could offer 13:2 on 10/11 if you wanted to go away from the "X to 1" setup. But that's just me being a player advocate. ;)

Quote: tringlomane

I think the payouts look good for the most part, but unfortunately, the easier hitting number bets seem to have have the highest edges. You offer 15:2 for the four number bet. You could offer 13:2 on 10/11 if you wanted to go away from the "X to 1" setup. But that's just me being a player advocate. ;)

You are exactly right. We calculated the 6:1, 6.5:1 and 7:1 returns for the 10/11 bets. 6:1 holds 12.5% (too much), 7:1 holds nothing. 13:2 holds 6.25%, which at least puts it in the ballpark.

Relative to all of the other bets, the 6:1 is not in that ballpark - it's out in the parking lot.

I'm on the fence about going with the 13:2 there for no other reason than graphical continuity. These bets are sitting right in the middle of a long row of "X:1" graphical elements. However, when I see the actual table I might change my mind.

The 15:2 payout on the "pick 4 numbers" bet does not have the issue of graphical continuity because of how it is placed on the table. For this bet the 7:1 held 11.1% (too much), and the 8:1 held nothing, so we went with the 15:2.

Even so, when I compare our numbers to those that I see on the WOO Sic Bo site, we blow everything else out of the water. Macau's hold on the 4/17 bets is an outrageous 47.2%. Ours is 1.4%. But that's just me taking credit where credit is due ;)

Chris

Quote: binary128

42 percent? I'd guess that you would need a huge Asian customer base to keep feeding a table with that low a return. Then again, if the Player wants to play Sic Bo then they're gonna play them some Sic Bo.

We were aiming for a European Roulette return, with the "en prison" rule. Thus the Push, rather than the loss, on the Big, Small, Odd and Even bets.

Chris

Don't forget, that's hold (win/drop), not house edge (win/handle). 42% in a land-based casino means a healthy edge and a lot of bankroll turnover.

For your game, I'd suggest making the edges of the different bets correlated to the payouts. The higher the payout, the higher the edge. Having a 1.5% edge is fine for a near 50-50 bet, but not for one that hits once every 50-100 hands. It's too easy to get lucky and skew the numbers, so those edges should be higher. Look at craps as an example, as opposed to roulette. But take this advice with a grain of salt; it's geared toward land-based games and monthly reporting requirements. If you have enough action then it'll all work out eventually even if all your edges are in the 1% range. Your clients will just need to be prepared for the swings.

Of course, the longest odds you can get in a 3-dice game is 1 in 216. PM me if you want to add a (patented) long-odds fixed or progressive jackpot bet to your game that can have payouts in the 10,000-to-1 or higher range (say, 1,000,000 to 1). "Million Dollar Sic Bo" has a nice ring to it...

42% is a huge return, I'm not sure why you say low return.

Quote: binary128

I'm on the fence about going with the 13:2 there for no other reason than graphical continuity. These bets are sitting right in the middle of a long row of "X:1" graphical elements. However, when I see the actual table I might change my mind.

Chris

Yeah, that would be the one thing that would hesitate me from offering 13:2 there as well.

Quote: ontariodealer

42% is a huge return, I'm not sure why you say low return.

I think he meant low return to the players. And that's a pretty high hold for a table game. I assume your house edges on payouts are similar to Atlantic City and not Macau, I hope! But Sic Bo might have an above average "time at the table" rate too leading to a 40%+ hold.

I can't imagine any sic bo table doesn't have a return like that, yet you can always see people at them. It's like roulette, or the money wheel, or slots. Big payouts and low minimums are a draw.