mamat
mamat
Joined: Jul 13, 2015
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March 4th, 2017 at 5:40:06 AM permalink
Here's my 2 cents. And I don't need anyone to agree with me. Hopefully I don't upset anyone. My apologies in advance if I do.

(1) Awful use of PRNG. In some scientific studies, artifacts of bad PNRGs caused problems. Two identical machines started at the exact same microsecond with the same seed (or seeds) should have some inputs (user behavior, line voltage variation, circuit temperature, etc...) which cause their performance to be different.

Of course, this might cause havoc any checking-routines which try to verify that a slot machine was supposed to hit X at time Y.

(2) Casinos are a business, trying to make money. Duh.
I fail to see the stupidity of APs who try to argue the theoretical or legal right-or-wrong on certain strategies.

Sometimes due to advertising realities, businesses honor "gaffes" and "mistakes".
...but it's a business/legal decision.

For example, if an airline offers a $0 fare NYC to Rome by accident (and publishes it to Orbitz, Travelocity, etc...),
they honor the fare & chalk it up as a marketing cost.

Why? Because (a) they have contracts to honor published fares, and they might get blacklisted by Orbitz.
(b) the negative publicity of not honoring a fare is huge

The big airlines already learned this lesson. About 8 years ago, a smaller airline tried to void all the $0 tickets.
Public backlash was so bad that they reversed their decision within a month or so.

(3) Imagine bank software has a glitch where they mistakenly credit your account with $10 million. Are you allowed to keep the money?
Same question, but they credit your account with an extra $100 every time you press a certain button combination on the ATM.

My American Express account got credited $2,000-3,000 with someone else's payment once.
And another account claimed that they didn't receive my $1,600 payment. Only time I had to send someone a copy of a cancelled check.

Whether or not a casino needs to honor XYZ event is a regulatory/legal/business decision which may or may not match what people think is ethically right, or what an AP/ploppy player would like.
EricStoner
EricStoner
Joined: Aug 17, 2016
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March 4th, 2017 at 10:42:04 AM permalink
I don't think any AP's are arguing here that a casino should pay for a machine malfunction. We all know that if we are playing a machine whose maximum payout is say, $10K and it awards us something far beyond that as occasionally happens and makes news, we are not going to get paid. The question here lies in whether these RNG exploits qualify as machine malfunctions? The manufacturer is apparently claiming they are not. If the casinos thought these machines were truly malfunctioning, they'd already be out of service. I liken this exploit lies somewhere in between.
“Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail.” - Emerson
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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April 2nd, 2017 at 10:36:01 PM permalink
Giving this thread a bump since I just came across the Wired article myself. I am thinking this is how they did it: since they have their hands on their own copies of machines they created a lookup table / rainbow table for the machine, so every output of the slot's random algorithm is mapped to a reel output. They then need to get some samples to figure out where in the random walk of the machine they currently are. They look ahead in the random walk of for a juicy looking block of outputs and have their inside man try for it. If that is more or less how their play works I would chalk it up to outdated hardware and/or non robust programming on the part of the slot manufacturer. The fact that they managed to sync up their timings through using a guy pressing buttons by hand is quite impressive, I was under the impression this wasn't possible, even under old hardware.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Dobrij
Dobrij
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
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April 3rd, 2017 at 2:07:44 AM permalink
Hello for all!

It's strange that only now this is beginning to be discussed, then what is written about with the article, we first encountered this race even earlier than in 2010

And this method is already considered to be old:) there are already newer versions ...

This is a serious problem for the European region, since even people who use this method will be caught not by the police. They do not interfere with the algorithm but predict the event ...

Apparently, American justice protects private business more than in Europe, if it turns out to be brought to justice
https://astroblox.com/
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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April 3rd, 2017 at 4:37:56 AM permalink
I just encountered this thread... will read the article ASAP.
Found a reference in LVRJ but only got a 'page no longer exists' when I went to look for it.

Will get on to this as soon as a I wake up this morning. Coffee ain't ready yet.

I've always thought that pure randomness was no more necessary than a pure wing was necessary on an airplane or pure water was needed in a hospital operating room. Real world wings have nicks, scratches and insect debris. Real world triple-filtered pure water has bacteria in it.

RNG is supposed to be 'random enough'
Dobrij
Dobrij
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
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April 3rd, 2017 at 8:12:25 AM permalink
The truth is that in the World there are many gaming machines there is no real RNG. But they are certified by special companies .. how can this be? Can, especially if the certifying company is a subsidiary ...

Why is this? This is a very good way to force the casino to update the equipment, as soon as a new hole is revealed, the producer says: oops, forgive me, the old version is removed from the line, buy a new one ..
https://astroblox.com/
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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April 3rd, 2017 at 8:30:06 AM permalink
I remember long long ago something about a 'random' number generator that always used the same seed number and so its first game of the day was, while not predictable, it was more predictable than if you didn't know the seed number.

Random enough was what the Germans thought of the Enigma machine. After all, sixty billion possibilities was surely more than British decoders could deal with, but it was not too much for the Britsh women at Bletchley Park, particularly when such factors as laziness of an operator and exhaustion of an operator were factored into the equation.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
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April 3rd, 2017 at 10:37:16 AM permalink
People have done the same type of thing with retro-video games.

This guy injected an entire program for Flappy Bird into Super Mario world by setting memory values with certain combinations of input:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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April 3rd, 2017 at 11:34:18 AM permalink
With this slot cheat scandal and how a lot of casinos yell at you to not take pictures or video, you'd think this might be a bad idea...

"And that's the bottom lineeeee, cuz Stone Cold said so!"
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
Joined: May 4, 2016
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Thanks for this post from:
mamat
April 3rd, 2017 at 12:24:39 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I just encountered this thread... will read the article ASAP.
Found a reference in LVRJ but only got a 'page no longer exists' when I went to look for it.

Will get on to this as soon as a I wake up this morning. Coffee ain't ready yet.

I've always thought that pure randomness was no more necessary than a pure wing was necessary on an airplane or pure water was needed in a hospital operating room. Real world wings have nicks, scratches and insect debris. Real world triple-filtered pure water has bacteria in it.

RNG is supposed to be 'random enough'



Here is a great video on PRNGs. Has some good visualizations that get the point across and explained for the average person:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtOt7EBNEwQ
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.

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