RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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August 13th, 2020 at 4:43:06 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I am generally a fan of your games, but if you try to address this problem with the payouts and probabilities then you are left with a Keno game where the player's EV depends on the spatial pattern of picks that they use. For players who don't realize this, they will be at a disadvantage.

Maybe you can scheme your way out of this - but . . .



Gordonm88 do you think we can somewhat eliminate this problem by limiting a slide award to a max of 3 or 4 per ball and then allowing more than one ball per round?

So technically the game will still have plenty of slide action, but now it could be sliding up for one ball and another ball is going in a different direction. This would create a more diverse game.
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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August 13th, 2020 at 10:20:07 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

One thing that I notice is that if you hit a number with a regular ball, and then the bonus ball 'slide' covers the same number, it is counted twice. Not sure if this is by design, but you could have a situation where you get more hits than the numbers picked.



Thanks for catching this error.
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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August 13th, 2020 at 5:14:02 PM permalink
Here is another option that we think we could use to eliminate the strategy of playing all the numbers in a row. I donít believe it solves the problem, but it helps.

Any thoughts?

charliepatrick
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RealizeGaming
August 13th, 2020 at 5:32:54 PM permalink
I haven't managed to do the maths correctly but if you just look at the chances of getting 2 hits from 2 you can see that if the two picks are far apart then you have a lower chance of getting 2 from 2 than if you make it so they could both be covered by the hit with one lucky slide.

The easiest way to see this is to assume the 20th number hits and then slides one way (eieher N, E, S or W) to another number. (It doesn't matter if you pick a different "slide" method, e.g. knight moves, the same logic applies, although there would be 8 knight moves!)

With two far apart numbers if you haven't had a winner within the first 19 picks you can't win. Admittedly if you've had one winner then you have a slightly better chance the slide catches your number (X X+1N X+1E X+1S X+1W). (With nearby numbers and one hit already, the slide cannot start from your hit number, so you only have four chances not five as one of X+1N X+1E X+1S X+1W will be your hit number and already gone.)

With nearby numbers you still have the chance to win on the 20th turn if either of your numbers is the 20th pick and, for slides, a 1 in 4 chance that the slide catches the other one.


btw there was a "fruit machine" that used a logic of lucky more picks and just picked more random numbers.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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August 13th, 2020 at 5:48:24 PM permalink
Quote: RealizeGaming

Gordonm88 do you think we can somewhat eliminate this problem by limiting a slide award to a max of 3 or 4 per ball and then allowing more than one ball per round?

So technically the game will still have plenty of slide action, but now it could be sliding up for one ball and another ball is going in a different direction. This would create a more diverse game.



1. As long as you have a mechanism, such as the slide, that chooses extra numbers that are adjacent, there will be an advantage to the player to clump or spatially pattern his picks. For better or worse, you will have altered a fundamental premise of conventional Keno -that all combinations of n picks have an equal chance of winning.

2. Your idea of using, say, two balls (at randomly selected locations) that each slide a smaller number would be a lot better, especially if they are made to slide orthogonally (at right angles to each other) -if one ball slides East perhaps the other ball should slide either North or South.
-this would avoid the high frequency of large payouts.
- but you will still need to account for "optimal" player strategy when jiggering your payout tables to achieve a target RTP; and its not immediately clear what the optimal player patterns may be.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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RealizeGaming
August 13th, 2020 at 5:57:06 PM permalink
Quote: RealizeGaming

Here is another option that we think we could use to eliminate the strategy of playing all the numbers in a row. I donít believe it solves the problem, but it helps.

Any thoughts?



This will certainly reduce the advantage to the player of spatial patterning. But of course, they would then choose spatial patterns of picks in response to this slide method. So, its like you said -it helps but doesn't eliminate.

However you slide, the worst pattern for the player will always be to pick numbers that are not adjacent to any other numbers in any direction - i.e., to pick widely spaced numbers. And clumping and spatial patterning of picks will always give some advantage.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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Gialmere
August 16th, 2020 at 3:01:00 PM permalink
Okay, we have updated the game again and I like this version the best. Basically, when the slide bonus comes up, it will slide in the directions indicated for the first slide and then it is randomly determined where it goes for the subsequent slides. It could be a straight line, diagonal, up, down, and any combinations to create a truly unique bonus hand each time.

Give it a try and let me know what you think.

http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/slideKenoV2/
Gialmere
Gialmere
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RealizeGaming
August 17th, 2020 at 12:38:25 PM permalink
For starters, if you keep this current version, you should rename it to something like Snake Keno as the bonus numbers now travel in a serpent-like fashion across the board (as opposed to sliding in a straight line).

I'm back to building a 12 number cluster in the center hoping that the "snake" will slither in and coil around. As predicted in posts above, this does happen on occasion and I'm always having winning sessions but the wins don't come as quickly.

While the bonus numbers might still be a issue, I think the bonus multiplier is a problem too. Even without the snake's help, I'm typically losing 4-6 games in a row and then getting a catch worth $5 with x3 multiplier (or a $3 catch with a x5 multiplier et al). If the snake shows up big I might get a $40 or $60 dollar win.

So it's not there yet but it certainly can be tweaked into balance.
Last edited by: Gialmere on Aug 17, 2020
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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August 17th, 2020 at 3:45:29 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

For starters, if you keep this current version, you should rename it to something like Snake Keno as the bonus numbers now travel in a serpent-like fashion across the board (as opposed to sliding in a straight line).

I'm back to building a 12 number cluster in the center hoping that the "snake" will slither in and coil around. As predicted in posts above, this does happen on occasion and I'm always having winning sessions but the wins don't come as quickly.

While the bonus numbers might still be a issue, I think the bonus multiplier is a problem too. Even without the snake's help, I'm typically losing 4-6 games in a row and then getting a catch worth $5 with x3 multiplier (or a $3 catch with a x5 multiplier et al). If the snake shows up big I might get a $40 or $60 dollar win.

So it's not there yet but it certainly can be tweaked into balance.



It's funny you also call it snake keno. We have also been using that terminology with this version.

Would the strategy be to just cluster numbers together regardless of location on the keno board? You mention you have been clustering in the middle, but could you use other locations with the same basic results?

We may have to find ways to limit the multiplier. Maybe charge a higher wager, severely limit the multipliers appearance and greatly reduce the multiplier. Just some things we are thinking about at this point.
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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Gialmere
September 3rd, 2020 at 4:07:31 PM permalink
Ok, we have completed a little bit more work on snake keno. To explain some of the rules for the snake bonus, I've included two pictures to illustrate some of the options during the bonus. Basically, the snake bonus starts from the bonus ball and can go up, down, left, or right to an adjacent ball. From that bonus ball, it randomly will choose another up, down, left, or right move to another adjacent location. This process continues until all the bonus moves are complete. Also, the bonus may snake over an already marked hit spot, but a double hit doesn't count as another hit and the snake cannot cross over itself. There are also situations where the snake bonus might be stuck with nowhere to go, thus ending the bonus. (The bonus can also go "off the page" as illustrated in the screens below.





Demo:
http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/slideKenoV2/

In terms of the preliminary math on the game, just randomly choosing numbers results in a RTP of around 70%. The number increases quite a bit when using the strategy of clustering the numbers you choose near the middle of the board and jumps the RTP to around 99%.

No strategy


Strategy of clustering near the middle of the board

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