GBV
GBV
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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July 25th, 2013 at 1:51:48 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo


That said, I wouldn't trust ANY online casino, but i would have a level of trust of casinos who were audited by worthy companies.



Yes, you would have thought so, wouldn't you? But thirteen years of advantage gambling do not bear that out.

The scenario I describe above with the auditor claiming a narrow remit in the face of obvious fraud is not a hypothetical, it is pretty much the rule.
GBV
GBV
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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July 25th, 2013 at 2:01:35 AM permalink
Quote: 4ofaKind



Eliot Jacobson, Christopher Colby, and the Wizard, are important allies to have in the war to fix online gaming. Online gaming, a multi-billion industry still operating unenforced is still seriously broken.



You can't trust people who get paid by casinos to audit casinos, whoever they are. We've been here with Casinomeister. It is just too easy when someone is writing you big cheques to rationalize it with your conscience somehow.

I've very often defended Jacobson on forums like bj21 for his eccentricity and "creative" mind. He is very widely detested in the AP community for selling players out to the casinos, something that doesn't sit too well with me either, so that wasn't easy. I wish I hadn't bothered.
binary128
binary128
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
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July 25th, 2013 at 1:22:05 PM permalink
I can't speak for the online casino industry. (Indeed, I frequently speak "against" the online casino industry.) However, I can speak (at length) about my small part of it.

There is not a human being on the face of the planet (including my mother) that I cannot look square in the eye and speak about the quality, reliability and integrity of our product(s), our company and our people. Eliot Jacobson is one of "our" people.

I would be thrilled to submit our product to any conceivable test that anyone can design. The problem with such tests - regardless of the results, the cynic (and I am proud to call myself a cynic) can always come up with a "what if" that throws doubts on those results.

I would open up our product(s) to the forum members in general. Individual game play results could be sent to any contributing member privately (in a very easy to analyze CSV format). The same results could be sent to Eliot anonymously, with a cross-identifier that only Mike would know.

Tests could be run by the Player on their game play results. The same tests could be run by Eliot. Mike could compare the results.

(I apologize up front for volunteering the services of Eliot and Mike. Obviously, we would want to keep both the Player count, and the test count, down so that as little time as possible is required.)

Again, I can't speak for the industry, but I can speak for, and stand behind, my small part of it. After 9 years of operation, over 4 of those years under the watchful eye of Eliot, I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever.

Chris
Caruso
Caruso
Joined: Jan 26, 2013
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July 25th, 2013 at 2:04:59 PM permalink
Quote: binary128

I would be thrilled to submit our product to any conceivable test that anyone can design. The problem with such tests - regardless of the results, the cynic (and I am proud to call myself a cynic) can always come up with a "what if" that throws doubts on those results.



The "what if" here is simply that the data provided is a selective known random snapshot, the real player logs being kept out of view of the auditor. Then you can cheat all you want with impunity.

For credible auditing the auditor would have to have access to flip out any and all data he wanted directly from the software for testing. The auditor would also have to be trustworthy. Obviously, payment represents a potential conflict of interests, but there's not much way around that.

Another way to definitively nail this one is to develop a software product that verifies the numbers as random directly at the client end. This was attempted many years ago, but vanished without trace. Obviously the gambling industry would never willingly participate in this, because some sections know they cheat, and the vast majority of the remainder would not be sufficiently confident they don't.
binary128
binary128
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
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July 26th, 2013 at 1:14:59 PM permalink
Quote: Caruso

The "what if" here is simply that the data provided is a selective known random snapshot, the real player logs being kept out of view of the auditor. Then you can cheat all you want with impunity.


That one can be dealt with as follows:

The Player records the precise data and time, with all game details, for 10, or 20 or whatever count they want. (The exact date and time is available in the in-game Play Log.) When the Player receives their game play logs, they find those 10, 20 or whatever games they recorded, confirm that they are there, and that the game data in the log exactly matches what they recorded.

Quote: Caruso

For credible auditing the auditor would have to have access to flip out any and all data he wanted directly from the software for testing. The auditor would also have to be trustworthy. Obviously, payment represents a potential conflict of interests, but there's not much way around that.


(Emphasis mine.)

Paying for auditing services is common throughout the business world - PWC, D&T, etc. I thus agree with your statement - "The auditor would also have to be trustworthy."

Quote: Caruso

Another way to definitively nail this one is to develop a software product that verifies the numbers as random directly at the client end. This was attempted many years ago, but vanished without trace. Obviously the gambling industry would never willingly participate in this, because some sections know they cheat, and the vast majority of the remainder would not be sufficiently confident they don't.


I remember that Jufo and I had a LONG thread conversation about this subject awhile ago on Casinomeister. By the end of that conversation, Jufo had designed "The Perfect Game". As I recall, the downside was that it really made it a pain in the ass if all you wanted to do was kill some time playing Pontoon.

Chris

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