BitCoin
Quote: AxelWolfIt may be a valid point if someone wants to claim it a good investment or not. Hasn't there been other recognized currencies that have lost tons of value over the last 5 to 10 years? Just because they have fluctuation, do we get to claim they are not a currency?
Assuming all goes to plan in El Salvador after 90 days, or whatever, will bitcoin be a currency, Yes or No?
If you asked 100 people on the street if it is a currency, most would say yes. If you asked 100 Economic Professors, I think they'd say no.
If you asked the street people what the difference between currency and money, I doubt ten would answer correctly.
so you think most people on the street will say yes, but you only think professors will say it is. That sounds like a majority of people think it is, that's kinda all you need for it to be one as far as I'm concerned.Quote: billryanIf you asked 100 people on the street if it is a currency, most would say yes. If you asked 100 Economic Professors, I think they'd say no.
If you asked the street people what the difference between currency and money, I doubt ten would answer correctly.
Who cares what we think or say? It will either be an actual currency, or it won't.
Quote: AxelWolfLet us know more when you have been to a number of countries. I was in Columbia not too long ago, and they would not take US dollars, even the casinos wouldn't take it on the floor or at the cage. Yet, a number of places were taking bitcoin.
Apparently EB hasn't even been to an American Casino hotel recently
I love all this claiming that US currency must be accepted everywhere. Try checking into a casino hotel and ask to pay in cash.
I don't know about the whole country but US paper money is NOT being accepted in a number of places in the United States.
And yes, I get it that it's still being accepted in digital form vis-a-vis Visa, etc, but the last few pages has been an argument that US business MUST accept US cash.
Nope!
I've been eagerly watching the BTC - USD exchange rate chart, watching for my own pre-decided buy or sell criteria to be hit. I'm far from a technical analyst, but I weigh up my gut feeling for the trend. Unlike the trend of a roulette wheel or baccarat shoe, this trend has some basis in reality. It's an expression of the gut feeling of all other holders or traders and past performance is a component of future performance.
https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/BTCUSD/
Now, I have some basic knowledge of the 'patterns' that traders look for and though those patterns have long been described and analysed and backtested, I still PMSL at how many different ways the data can be interpreted. I see lots of 'experts' who analyse the chart and pencil a few lines, flags, waves and whatever on the chart and then go on to expound their widely different interpretations. Some of the narratives SOUND persuasive. Some are elloquent and some are child-like. So...... I ignore every single one. When they are all united in expecting the same outcome, I look to see how they are wrong. As those guys peer into the trend over the last hour/day/month, I look at the slightly longer term. 3 years, 5 years, ten years. And that does not persuade me to sell. I visualise suites of mining servers being powered down and decommissioned in China and shipped to El Salvadore and I chuckle. So Much activity. So much piggy back innovation and so much human endeavour expended on building this... what?
For now I hodl. Watch this space for when I make my move. Maybe I'll help our resident BTC millionaire to average down $:o)
Anyone here looking to actually buy or sell a tranche soon?
Quote:Major economies including China and the United States have signalled in recent weeks a tougher approach, while developing plans to develop their own central bank digital currencies.
Is the USA going to issue its own digital currency?
And that's just crazy talk. Geothermal heat used to generate electricity to heat up racks of equipment and then to cool it down again. And somehow the loony tunes President thinks it's all free.Quote: rxwine“ I've just instructed the president of @LaGeoSV (our state-owned geothermal electric company), to put up a plan to offer facilities for #Bitcoin mining with very cheap, 100% clean, 100% renewable, 0 emissions energy from our volcanos," president Nayib Bukele tweeted. "This is going to evolve fast!"
https://environmental-conscience.com/geothermal-energy-pros-cons/
I'd say inevitably. But it will be a hybrid crypto-dollar. The government will want to retain control and deny any anonymity. It will probably be more Big Brother than anything you've ever seen before. Civil forfeiture might have a whole new menacing meaning.Quote: rxwineThis was in a story about banking regulation.
Is the USA going to issue its own digital currency?
Quote: OnceDearI'd say inevitably. But it will be a hybrid crypto-dollar. The government will want to retain control and deny any anonymity. It will probably be more Big Brother than anything you've ever seen before. Civil forfeiture might have a whole new menacing meaning.
Idk. Big brother is always portrayed as an evil. Perhaps that needs to be rethought?
For example, I would see civil forfeiture going down. If the government KNOWS how you got the money what's the excuse for forfeiture. Civil forfeiture has been under the cloak of NOT knowing how the money was obtained.
Quote: rxwineThis was in a story about banking regulation.
Is the USA going to issue its own digital currency?
Can the USofA dare to fall behind in the digital currency race? Can we afford to fall behind the godless Russians and the Chicoms?
Close the digital currency gap now, before our sons and daughters have to go to war over it.
Quote: EvenBobA major problem here is we all seem to have different definitions of what currency means. We have to go with the definition Soopoo posted. Currency is an accepted form of payment. Accepted by the government, accepted by the people, accepted by all merchants, accepted by the banks. If you offer it to merchants they have to take it in the form of cash or card backed by the accepted currency. Bitcoin in the United States will never ever be an accepted currency for reasons already explained. Total instability being the major one.
Why would you go with Soopoos definition s opposed to the ones taught in economics class? Visa is accepted by the government, accepted by people, banks, churches, casinos, etc. Is Visa a currency?
Quote: billryanIs Visa a currency?
My Visa pays in USD. Not Visa dollars. When I get cash from an ATM with my Visa I get USD, there is no other choice. It uses the form of currency accepted by the government and banks and merchants. All my credit and debit cards do the same thing.
Quote: EvenBobMy Visa pays in USD. Not Visa dollars. When I get cash from an ATM with my Visa I get USD, there is no other choice. It uses the form of currency accepted by the government and banks and merchants. All my credit and debit cards do the same thing.
So it's your belief that if you took a trip to Europe and used your Visa card at the European ATM it would have to provide US dollars?
LOL. Canadian casino chips are discounted 20% in the USA.
Quote: darkozSo it's your belief that if you took a trip to Europe and used your Visa card at the European ATM it would have to provide US dollars?
It would give me the accepted currency of that country. You really have no idea how Visa works do you
Quote: ChumpChangeThe IRS says bitcoin is property
Notice it doesn't say Bitcoin is currency. It's like winning a bunch of stuff on The Price is Right, you have to pay income tax on that property you just won. Beanie Babies are taxable to. If you traded your Beanie Baby collection for a collection of something else that more is valuable you are supposed to pay income tax on the difference.
Quote: EvenBobIt would give me the accepted currency of that country. You really have no idea how Visa works do you
So you admit you don't know what you were talking about finally?
Quote: AxelWolfIt may be a valid point if someone wants to claim it a good investment or not. Hasn't there been other recognized currencies that have lost tons of value over the last 5 to 10 years? Just because they have fluctuation, do we get to claim they are not a currency?
Assuming all goes to plan in El Salvador after 90 days, or whatever, will bitcoin be a currency, Yes or No?
I think it will fit the definition of a currency. But who cares if it is a currency in El Salvador? Next week when I’m in Vegas and you are buying me and my wife drinks, I bet you will use $$ and not BTC!
Quote: EvenBobIt would give me the accepted currency of that country. You really have no idea how Visa works do you
Having used an ATM in literally dozens of countries, many offer the choice of US dollars OR the country’s own currency. In Jamaica I took out both from the same ATM with the same Visa Bank Card.
This whole argument is just words…. Bob I believe is correct that no store will be required to accept BTC. So what?
Not Capital Gains Tax? It would be CGT in the UK. Pretty sure the same is true for the US..... UNLESS you were trading them as a reselling business.Quote: EvenBobIf you traded your Beanie Baby collection for a collection of something else that more is valuable you are supposed to pay income tax on the difference.
Quote: OnceDearNot Capital Gains Tax? It would be CGT in the UK. Pretty sure the same is true for the US..... UNLESS you were trading them as a reselling business.
A regular seller would list them on a Schedule, which is an add on to the 1040 forms, deduct their expenses and be taxed as normal income, as I understand it. I think it is Schedule C , but it might be Schedule D. It's been a few years since I did my own taxes.
I am not sure how a person who did a single sale would report it, I've never been in that boat.
Quote: ChumpChangeI think Coinbase won't report you to the IRS unless you have 200+ transactions totaling $20,000+. Kind of hard avoid when you cash out on the daily.
I know nothing about Coinbase but those are the figures eBay, and I believe Paypal, are using for 2021. In 2022, it is lowered to $600.
Quote: darkozSo you admit you don't know what you were talking about finally?
I have been right on the money every post on this subject going back to the very first post I made 7or8 years ago.
That's what irks you guys is I was absolutely right on with my very first post on bitcoin. That it's a scam that it's a scheme that it will never be accepted currency in any country that matters.
Quote: SOOPOOI think it will fit the definition of a currency. But who cares if it is a currency in El Salvador?
They are so desperate for stability in El Salvador they would use baseball cards for currency if they can make it work.
Quote: SOOPOOHaving used an ATM in literally dozens of countries, many offer the choice of US dollars OR the country’s own currency.
As long as it's an accepted currency.
Quote: OnceDearUNLESS you were trading them as a reselling business.
That's all I did was trade to resell
If Coinbase is going to lower the cumulative dollar amount cashed out before reporting from $20,000 down to $600, it's just become a lottery/gambling sort of thing.
Quote: billryanIn 2022, it is lowered to $600.
This more than anything else will kill Bitcoin. One of its major attractions was there was no IRS involved
Quote: EvenBobThey are so desperate for stability in El Salvador they would use baseball cards for currency if they can make it work.
You can not use baseball cards for currency. You can use them as money, but not currency. This is like watching third-graders describing the difference between fission and fusion.
Let's meet at The D (-:Quote: SOOPOOI think it will fit the definition of a currency. But who cares if it is a currency in El Salvador? Next week when I’m in Vegas and you are buying me and my wife drinks, I bet you will use $$ and not BTC!
I don't think BTC will ever be a US currency, nor have I ever believed that it would be. I have nothing against USDA and I'm not someone who is paranoid about the government, inflation, an economic crisis, etc.
I'm all for having options, and variety. BTC is useful to me and many others, so that's why we care.
Bob was comparing BTC to beanie babies @ around $150-$200 and yet it has been over 60k and now it's hovering around 37k. A country is about to make it a currency/legal tender, I think that shows it's much more than just some beanie babby fad. I'm sure you and many others would have bet that would never happen.
Who knows, other countries may follow suit and adopt BTC as a currency also.
Quote: AxelWolfLet's meet at The D (-:
I don't think BTC will ever be a US currency, nor have I ever believed that it would be. I have nothing against USDA and I'm not someone who is paranoid about the government, inflation, an economic crisis, etc.
I'm all for having options, and variety. BTC is useful to me and many others, so that's why we care.
Bob was comparing BTC to beanie babies @ around $150-$200 and yet it has been over 60k and now it's hovering around 37k. A country is about to make it a currency/legal tender, I think that shows it's much more than just some beanie babby fad. I'm sure you and many others would have bet that would never happen.
Who knows, other countries may follow suit and adopt BTC as a currency also.
Just to be clear. The very unpopular leader of what is a failed country where half the people don't have access to the internet, seventy percent of the population doesn't have a bank account, and the majority of the people live in abject poverty now is bringing bitcoin to his land.
What are the chances accepting bitcoin is going to change any of that? This experiment speaks more about the country than bitcoin, but any port in a storm, I suppose.
Just because Bob is wrong doesn't mean you folks are right.
Quote: billryanJust to be clear. The very unpopular leader of what is a failed country where half the people don't have access to the internet, seventy percent of the population doesn't have a bank account, and the majority of the people live in abject poverty now is bringing bitcoin to his land.
What are the chances accepting bitcoin is going to change any of that? This experiment speaks more about the country than bitcoin, but any port in a storm, I suppose.
Just because Bob is wrong doesn't mean you folks are right.
A definition of currency was put forth (among a few given here) that if it's not accepted by all vendors, operators etc in a country then it isn't a currency.
Then a country is given and now you try to add qualifiers? Third world countries can't have currencies?
The argument that El Salvador is a terrible economy doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin is about to qualify as a currency by those people who gave the definition above.
Your post is just changing the goal posts in an attempt to be right
I'm kind of interested in Bitcoin Cash (now at $570)
Bitcoin vs. Bitcoin Cash: What Is the Difference? https://www.investopedia.com/tech/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-cash-whats-difference/
Popular credit card company Visa, Inc. (V), for instance, processes close to 150 million transactions per day, averaging roughly 1,700 transactions per second.
How many transactions can the bitcoin network process per second? Seven.
Transactions can take several minutes or more to process. As the network of bitcoin users has grown, waiting times have become longer because there are more transactions to process without a change in the underlying technology that processes them.
The Bitcoin Cash network can handle many more transactions per second than the Bitcoin network can.
Elon Musk, Space X, you out there?
Quote: billryanYou can not use baseball cards for currency. You can use them as money, but not currency.
I was making a stupid joke. Everybody around here is soooo serious.
Quote: darkozis about to qualify as a currency .
In the Solomon Islands dolphins teeth are used as currency. There are banks in Italy that accept wheels of parmesan cheese as currency for loan payments. Some small countries in Africa still use sea shells as currency. I don't think you are making the point you think you're making.
Quote: billryan
Just because Bob is wrong
I'm not wrong. Bitcoin is a scheme invented by rich people to make them even richer. It's working like a charm.
Quote: OnceDearThat wasn't my point. I was just curious if there are any open positions on wizcoin?
Care to open one now ? :o)
There are no open positions. However, I'll sell you, and only OD, some WizCoin, if you think it will go up in value.
Quote: EvenBobIn the Solomon Islands dolphins teeth are used as currency. There are banks in Italy that accept wheels of parmesan cheese as currency for loan payments. Some small countries in Africa still use sea shells as currency. I don't think you are making the point you think you're making.
Thanks for proving Bitcoin is a currency.
You are welcome
Quote: darkozThanks for proving Bitcoin is a currency.
I pointed out that in a country like El Salvador Bitcoin is as much of a currency as dolphins teeth are in the Solomon Islands. In fact dolphin's teeth teeth are better because their value is stable. Nobody has any idea would Bitcoin will be worth on any given day.
Quote: EvenBobI pointed out that in a country like El Salvador Bitcoin is as much of a currency as dolphins teeth are in the Solomon Islands. In fact dolphin's teeth teeth are better because their value is stable. Nobody has any idea would Bitcoin will be worth on any given day.
Right. So Bitcoin is a currency.
I'm glad you finally came around
Quote: darkozA definition of currency was put forth (among a few given here) that if it's not accepted by all vendors, operators etc in a country then it isn't a currency.
Then a country is given and now you try to add qualifiers? Third world countries can't have currencies?
The argument that El Salvador is a terrible economy doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin is about to qualify as a currency by those people who gave the definition above.
Your post is just changing the goal posts in an attempt to be right
I never said any of those things about vendors.
Economics has rules and definitions. I'm sorry you don't like them but that doesn't change them.
I've already said the El Salvador experiment is interesting. I think it will fail horribly if it isn't stillborn before the launch but it really doesn't change anything. Is El Salvador sponsoring bitcoin? No. So bitcoin is still not a state-sponsored instrument.
Will Salvadorians be paid in bitcoin? Will the Government pay it's employees in bitcoin? How will a worker feel if he works two weeks with BC at 32,000 but when he is supposed to get paid it drops to $25,000. How do businesses set their prices when bitcoin varies 10% a day most sessions? What do you sell a beer for when you don't know if it cost you .90 cents or $1.10? If you had a choice between being paid in dollars, or BC, how many people will choose to get paid in BC? Especially since so many have neither internet access or bank accounts.
Do you think other countries will accept bitcoin for payment from El Salvador? I don't, so what happens to all the bitcoin the Salvadorian government collects? Will government employees work for BC instead of dollars? If they get paid in them and immediately exchange for dollars, that is bad for pricing.
I'm not sure I see much upside in it, but I had a number of Salvadorian friends on Long Island so I hope it works out for all involved.
Quote: darkozRight. So Bitcoin is a currency.
I said it will never be a currency in any country that matters. I said that many times. El Salvador doesn't matter even to the people who live there. Anything can be currency if the people of the country agree that it is. Native Americans sold Manhattan Island for some shiny trinkets. No country outside of a third world crap hole would ever accept Bitcoin as a currency. It's backed by nothing except hot air. For some reason you seem to think this El Salvador thing is a big deal. It's not.
“Betting on bitcoin is like playing roulette in Las Vegas,” wrote Carlos Acevedo, former governor of El Salvador’s central bank. “Who could explain to the IMF and multilateral banks if part of their loans are lost in a casino round?”
The hilarious part of this whole thing is retailers and shop owners are required by law to accept Bitcoin as payment UNLESS they do not have the technology to process the payment. 70% of El Salvadorans live in extreme poverty. They don't even know what a Bitcoin is let alone have access to it. The ones that do have electricity have rolling blackouts all the time. They do not own smartphones, they can't afford the service for a smartphone if they had one. The US dollar will remain the number one currency in El Salvador and merchants are encouraged to take whatever Bitcoin they get as payment and sell it to the central bank in exchange for US dollars. It sounds like a scheme and a scam to me, a way for the government to amass Bitcoin and sell it when it's high. The whole thing is a joke.
Quote: EvenBobI said it will never be a currency in any country that matters. I said that many times. El Salvador doesn't matter even to the people who live there. Anything can be currency if the people of the country agree that it is. Native Americans sold Manhattan Island for some shiny trinkets. No country outside of a third world crap hole would ever accept Bitcoin as a currency. It's backed by nothing except hot air. For some reason you seem to think this El Salvador thing is a big deal. It's not.
“Betting on bitcoin is like playing roulette in Las Vegas,” wrote Carlos Acevedo, former governor of El Salvador’s central bank. “Who could explain to the IMF and multilateral banks if part of their loans are lost in a casino round?”
The hilarious part of this whole thing is retailers and shop owners are required by law to accept Bitcoin as payment UNLESS they do not have the technology to process the payment. 70% of El Salvadorans live in extreme poverty. They don't even know what a Bitcoin is let alone have access to it. The ones that do have electricity have rolling blackouts all the time. They do not own smartphones, they can't afford the service for a smartphone if they had one. The US dollar will remain the number one currency in El Salvador and merchants are encouraged to take whatever Bitcoin they get as payment and sell it to the central bank in exchange for US dollars. It sounds like a scheme and a scam to me, a way from the government to amass Bitcoin and sell it when it's high. The whole thing is a joke.
So basically you admit it's a currency in El Salvador
Quote: darkozSo basically you admit it's a currency in El Salvador
Why do you keep repeating this over and over, I don't get it.
But you forget, not only is going to be a legal tender/currency in that "s-hole county" but it's also used around the world. Perhaps you missed this...Quote: billryanJust to be clear. The very unpopular leader of what is a failed country where half the people don't have access to the internet, seventy percent of the population doesn't have a bank account, and the majority of the people live in abject poverty now is bringing bitcoin to his land.
What are the chances accepting bitcoin is going to change any of that? This experiment speaks more about the country than bitcoin, but any port in a storm, I suppose.
Just because Bob is wrong doesn't mean you folks are right.
There are thousands of places that accept it including major companies. Overstock takes bitcoin and apparently they are paying some of their taxes in bitcoin, I can go to an ATM and get cash, I can sell it on and exchange it, I can sell it or buy on the street, I can buy stuff from individuals, pay or receive it for debts, I can use it in conjunction with apps to make purchases, there are places you can buy gold with it, you can convert it into stocks, you can buy some houses with it, I think debit cards and a crypto visa are coming soon( if not already available), you can use bitcoin globally, I can earn interest on it and much more.
Assuming things go to plan in El Salvador, it's time to stop claiming it isn't a currency/legal tender and move on to why it's good or bad/ going down or up. I get it, people have not been taking BTC seriously for years and they missed out. Guys like Bob were silent as BTC was skyrocketing making 10 of thousand of people millionaires and adding significant net worth to others(schadenfreude denied, envy a mile high). He only jumped back in when it looked like it was doomsday for BTC. He has been wrong on so many levels, but then again, what should I expect from a guy who still heats his house with boxes of candles.
