BitCoin
Quote: billryan
Is there a bank that currently exists that will lend me 25,000 BC today and will charge me 3% interest tied to future BC value? Will anyone lease me an apartment for 1/33 of a BC monthly rent for the next two years.?
Can you imagine what a nightmare this would be? The only thing you will ever be able to buy with Bitcoin that is safe it's something that costs under a dollar, where you don't care what it's worth tomorrow. You would have to be insane to buy anything expensive with it.
Quote: AxelWolfhttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57398274
El Salvador has become the first country in the world to officially classify Bitcoin as legal currency.
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Now you can stop saying, it's not a currency.
It's currency in El Salvador. So what? do you live in El Salvador? Buy much goods from El Salvador?
Quote: EvenBobYes, that's how collectibles work. Not so with currencies. Elon Musk cannot change the value of the dollar by buying a whole bunch of dollars. Imagine if Bitcoin was currency. Why would you ever buy anything expensive with it, the rental property you just bought with Bitcoin might be worth half what you paid for it next week.
Of course the value of the dollar, relative to other currencies, would change if someone bought enough. Forex markets are subject to market forces.
Quote: gamerfreak
I would consider honeybuns in prison to be a currency.
Do you know what is currency in prison right now, federal prisons anyway? Those foil pouches that contain tuna. They are considered legal tender in federal prisons by the prisoners. It works great in that extremely and enclosed system. Used to be packs of cigarettes but smoking is not allowed now. Would you buy a new car with tuna packages? Of course not, but you'd be an idiot to buy a new car with Bitcoin so what's the difference.
Quote: EvenBobDo you know what is currency in prison right now, federal prisons anyway? Those foil pouches that contain tuna. They are considered legal tender in federal prisons by the prisoners. It works great in that extremely and enclosed system. Used to be packs of cigarettes but smoking is not allowed now. Would you buy a new car with tuna packages? Of course not, but you'd be an idiot to buy a new car with Bitcoin so what's the difference.
Bold added.
You did a 180. What does it matter if I pay cash or Bitcoin for a car? After the transaction I have a car. If I want more Bitcoin I can use the cash I didn’t use on the car to buy Bitcoin.
Would you be a fool to trade some Beanie Babies for a car?
Quote: EvenBobCan you imagine what a nightmare this would be? The only thing you will ever be able to buy with Bitcoin that is safe it's something that costs under a dollar, where you don't care what it's worth tomorrow. You would have to be insane to buy anything expensive with it.
That's not right. If you buy a property, you might pay for it in BC, but it isn't valued in BC. If BC is worth 50,000 and you buy a property worth $100,000, you buy it with 2 BCs. If bitcoin crashes and two weeks later is worth $25,000, your property is still worth the $100,000 you paid for it. The person who accepted two BCs for the property is screwed, but not the buyer.
Quote: unJonQuote: EvenBobDo you know what is currency in prison right now, federal prisons anyway? Those foil pouches that contain tuna. They are considered legal tender in federal prisons by the prisoners. It works great in that extremely and enclosed system. Used to be packs of cigarettes but smoking is not allowed now. Would you buy a new car with tuna packages? Of course not, but you'd be an idiot to buy a new car with Bitcoin so what's the difference.
Bold added.
You did a 180. What does it matter if I pay cash or Bitcoin for a car? After the transaction I have a car. If I want more Bitcoin I can use the cash I didn’t use on the car to buy Bitcoin.
Would you be a fool to trade some Beanie Babies for a car?
Believe it or not, but there are still a few Beanie Babies that sell for around the price of a new car. I'd guess 99% are worth $3 or less but I've seen some go for 10K-20K. A few others would bring more as they are one of ones and virtually impossible to find on the open market.
Quote: AxelWolfhttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57398274
El Salvador has become the first country in the world to officially classify Bitcoin as legal currency.
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Now you can stop saying, it's not a currency.
The Won and the chon are currency. Just try spending them anywhere outside of North Korea. Do you really want to put bitcoin alongside them as a way of advancing your position? Bc is a currency in El Salvador. Are you planning a long weekend in San Salvador?
Otherwise, I'm not sure why it matters. A broken country, where most people don't have access to the internet and some 70% of residents don't have a bank gets its 15 minutes of fame and some people think it is a game-changer.
BC just lost China, with its billion-plus population and the world's second-largest economy, but it gained use in El Salvador. Sounds like a Pyrrhic victory to me.
Please explain why I would be an idiot to buy a new car with bitcoin, notwithstanding I don't tend to buy new cars because of their inherent instant depreciation. Note. I'm not talking of leasing a car, nor buying a car with a loan. Just taking my casino winnings of roughly the value of a new car and spending them... Maybe passing them through a fiat exchange on the way.Quote: EvenBobWould you buy a new car with tuna packages? Of course not, but you'd be an idiot to buy a new car with Bitcoin so what's the difference.
Quote: billryanIt's currency in El Salvador. So what? do you live in El Salvador? Buy much goods from El Salvador?
I don't need to live there to use it, there are thousands of places that accept it including major companies. Overstock takes bitcoin and apparently they are paying some of their taxes in bitcoin, I can go to an ATM and get cash, I can sell it on and exchange it, I can sell it or buy on the street, i can buy stuff from individuals, pay or receive it for debts, I can use it in conjunction with apps to make purchases, there are places you can buy gold with it, you can convert it into stocks, you can buy some houses with it, I think debit cards and a crypto visa are coming soon( if not already available), you can use bitcoin globally, I can earn interest on it and much more. If that's not a currency, I don't know what the F is.
well that's simple, it's called Bobillogic.Quote: OnceDearPlease explain why I would be an idiot to buy a new car with bitcoin
And yet, it is/will be a currency, so there's that.Quote: billryanNone of those things fit the widely accepted definitions of what a currency is.
"a system of money in general use in a particular country"
"something that is used as a medium of exchange; money."
For that matter, whats does it matter if you pay cash or tuna packages for a car?Quote: unJon
You did a 180. What does it matter if I pay cash or Bitcoin for a car?
What if someone told you tuna packages were basically worthless, but you ignored that person and bought tuna packages at $150 per package and some years later people were paying 37k for them and you traded them for a new car.
Who is the idiot, the guy who just got a new car with his tuna packages or the guy that said they were worthless?
Quote: AxelWolfFor that matter, whats does it matter if you pay cash or tuna packages for a car?
What if someone told you tuna packages were basically worthless, but you ignored that person and bought tuna packages at $150 per package and some years later people were paying 37k for them and you traded them for a new car.
Who is the idiot, the guy who just got a new car with his tuna packages or the guy that said they were worthless?
Why would you call someone who disagrees with you an idiot. Is it fair to say that 98% of the world doesn't use BC.
Are we all idiots?
Quote: AxelWolfAnd yet, it is/will be a currency, so there's that.
"a system of money in general use in a particular country"
"something that is used as a medium of exchange; money."
Where is bitcoin in general use in any country? Please don't say El Salvador, where half the population doesn't have internet access and lives in poverty.
Quote: billryanWhere is bitcoin in general use in any country? Please don't say El Salvador, where half the population doesn't have internet access and lives in poverty.
So you ask to name one country and then refuse to accept when one country is named?
That's called moving the goal posts a bit
Quote: billryanWhy would you call someone who disagrees with you an idiot. Is it fair to say that 98% of the world doesn't use BC.
Are we all idiots?
EvenBob used idiot. Axel was responding to that.
Quote: billryanThat's not right. If you buy a property, you might pay for it in BC, but it isn't valued in BC.
Of course it would be valued in Bitcoin! You can't have two currencies in the same country competing with each other for value, it would be a nightmare. Buy it with Bitcoin it's valued in Bitcoin it would be sold in Bitcoin. If you're envisioning an America where Bitcoin and the USD would both be legal tender at the same time it's an impossibility. You might find some chump who would let you buy a tank of gas for your car for Bitcoin, but that's between you and him. You would be trading Bitcoin for gas. You could trade him any collectible if he's willing to take it.
Quote: AxelWolf
Who is the idiot, the guy who just got a new car with his tuna packages or the guy that said they were worthless?
You're getting close to the insanity of collectibles trading. Values run on rumors and outlier auctions and mistaken price guides. There's no rhyme or reason to it. This is why every government strives to have a stable currency. A military doesn't want to be paid in tuna packs or bitcoins, they want something that has real tangible value and will remain stable for years to come.
Quote: EvenBobOf course it would be valued in Bitcoin! You can't have two currencies in the same country competing with each other for value, it would be a nightmare. Buy it with Bitcoin it's valued in Bitcoin it would be sold in Bitcoin. If you're envisioning an America where Bitcoin and the USD would both be legal tender at the same time it's an impossibility. You might find some chump who would let you buy a tank of gas for your car for Bitcoin, but that's between you and him. You would be trading Bitcoin for gas. You could trade him any collectible if he's willing to take it.
Post makes little sense. Lots of countries routinely accept multiple currencies in the average store/business. Exchange rates fluctuate. Everyone manages.
Quote: billryanWhy would you call someone who disagrees with you an idiot. Is it fair to say that 98% of the world doesn't use BC.
Are we all idiots?
I could argue that 98% of people are idiots but it has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
Buying a property, a gallon of gas or a pint of beer with bitcoin is no different than using your Visa card. The products are priced in dollars. The seller has the option of keeping the bitcoin or exchange it for dollars.
Fun fact- When I type bitcoin, my kindle auto-corrects to fiction.
Quote: billryanThe products are priced in dollars. The seller has the option of keeping the bitcoin or exchange it for dollars.
Just like any other collectible, bitcoin's priced in dollars. Merchants would take Bitcoin only because it's priced in US dollars. They could take any collectible in trade. They do not do this because the whole concept is ridiculous. Why would I sell someone a car for Bitcoin when Bitcoin might be worth 50% less tomorrow. I'd have to be out of my mind. I would have to sell the Bitcoin for cash immediately. So why not just sell the car for cash and eliminate Bitcoin from the transaction entirely.
Uh!??? It's the simplest of arithmetic processes. No nightmare Why would there be a nightmare?Quote: EvenBobYou can't have two currencies in the same country competing with each other for value, it would be a nightmare. Buy it with Bitcoin it's valued in Bitcoin it would be sold in Bitcoin.
My paypal account has sub-accounts in USD, Euro and GBP. I can spend them individually or move funds between them at will. No nightmare. My business bank account lets me spend my balance and invoice my customers in USD or GBP, and I do all the time. If I buy a car in Euro or BTC from some guy in mainland europe, then it's value is that of a car. I can then sell it in whatever currency I choose at the current value of that car in whatever currency I choose to sell in. It's not rocket science to look up and use a couple of exchange rates.
The quality of your arguments is not improving.
Funny that. on websites I use, Bitcoin is priced in Pounds Sterling. The shape of the chart is similar but not an exact match. The same site shows me charts of the price of the US Dollar in pounds, or vice versa. Shock of shocks. It's not a constant exchange rate.Quote: EvenBobJust like any other collectible, bitcoin's priced in dollars. Merchants would take Bitcoin only because it's priced in US dollars. They could take any collectible in trade. They do not do this because the whole concept is ridiculous. Why would I sell someone a car for Bitcoin when Bitcoin might be worth 50% less tomorrow. I'd have to be out of my mind. I would have to sell the Bitcoin for cash immediately. So why not just sell the car for cash and eliminate Bitcoin from the transaction entirely.
The closest you got to being right in this thread. I MIGHT sell my car for bitcoin if I anticipated that BTC are about to rise and something I want to hold. If I thought it might drop, like many venders, I;d unload my BTC for pounds sterling very quickly. It's what many vendors do. Accepting Bitcoin, or Euro or Pounds or beanie babies is just a mechanism to oil the wheels of commerce. It is very sane to offer many options.Quote:Why would I sell someone a car for Bitcoin when Bitcoin might be worth 50% less tomorrow. I'd have to be out of my mind. I would have to sell the Bitcoin for cash immediately.
Quote: OnceDear
My paypal account has sub-accounts in USD, Euro and GBP.
You're trading in different currencies, so what. Not the same as having a pound sterling and Bitcoin both being legal tender accepted everywhere in the UK. Not even gold is currency anymore and at one time the whole world was on the gold standard. Gold is like Bitcoin, far too volatile to be a currency. Not a single country in the world has its money backed by gold anymore. Nobody knows what gold will be worth next month and next year. You want to trade Bitcoin like it's a commodity, that's fine. But it will never be a currency. It will never be anything more than a curiosity and a scheme.
All about what market you are looking at. Markets are local and currency is decided in that market.Quote: EvenBobYou're trading in different currencies, so what. Not the same as having a pound sterling and Bitcoin both being legal tender accepted everywhere in the UK. Not even gold is currency anymore and at one time the whole world was on the gold standard. Gold is like Bitcoin, far too volatile to be a currency. Not a single country in the world has its money backed by gold anymore. Nobody knows what gold will be worth next month and next year. You want to trade Bitcoin like it's a commodity, that's fine. But it will never be a currency. It will never be anything more than a curiosity and a scheme.
In the UK, we almost universally accept pounds and almost universally reject dollars. At airport terminals, we can use pounds, dollars or Euro, because the vendors there find it expedient. In prisons, it might be drugs, or sim cards or tuna. Maybe in prisons, the dollar and the pound and Bitcoin would be pretty rarely used and valued lower.
For Bitcoin, the market is thinner than that used for the dollar, but BTC is valued by the real traders in many countries. Even where the traders are crooks. You surely can't say that BTC is not a currency used by dark web 'traders'
Where there is liquidity and adoption, anything can be currency. In some associations, man-hours recorded in a ledger could be a currency..
Quote: OnceDearAll about what market you are looking at. Markets are local and currency is decided in that market.
In the UK, we almost universally accept pounds and almost universally reject dollars. At airport terminals, we can use pounds, dollars or Euro, because the vendors there find it expedient. In prisons, it might be drugs, or sim cards or tuna. Maybe in prisons, the dollar and the pound and Bitcoin would be pretty rarely used and valued lower.
For Bitcoin, the market is thinner than that used for the dollar, but BTC is valued by the real traders in many countries. Even where the traders are crooks. You surely can't say that BTC is not a currency used by dark web 'traders'
Where there is liquidity and adoption, anything can be currency. In some associations, man-hours recorded in a ledger could be a currency..
What you are describing is money, not currency.
SubtleQuote: billryanWhat you are describing is money, not currency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency
In the US ,the banks lend dollars, in Japan they do yen, in Mexico they use pesos. Dollars, yen, pesos, Euro, most any country uses a currency that has a standard deferred value. It is understood that a dollar thirty years from now will have less buying power. Bitcoin has no deferred value.
There is a reason why banks don't offer mortgages or business loans in bitcoin. Until cryptocurrencies have an established deferred value, I don't see them as a curiosity *currency and BC is a very expensive curiosity.
* typo fixed.
Quote: billryanIf I want to buy a house, a bank will loan me money for the next thirty years in order to purchase it. The bank is giving me dollars today, and won't get its last payment for thirty years. The bank has a good idea of what it will need to make over the loan in order to make its profit.
In the US ,the banks lend dollars, in Japan they do yen, in Mexico they use pesos. Dollars, yen, pesos, Euro, most any country uses a currency that has a standard deferred value. It is understood that a dollar thirty years from now will have less buying power. Bitcoin has no deferred value.
There is a reason why banks don't offer mortgages or business loans in bitcoin. Until cryptocurrencies have an established deferred value, I don't see them as a curiosity and BC is a very expensive curiosity.
It's funny how fast the times are changing. Bill and EB can't even keep up.
I'm sorry, did you say Bitcoin has never been used for a mortgage?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/mighty-ducks-actor-brock-pierce-used-bitcoin-to-buy-1-2m-home-in-amsterdam
EDIT: In an even more interesting sidenote, the guy who used Bitcoin to purchase his dream home has more than 95% of his wealth tied up in Bitcoin.
While he is moving into his new home in Amsterdam, perhaps Bill can text him why he has been a fool.
Quote: darkozIt's funny how fast the times are changing. Bill and EB can't even keep up.
I'm sorry, did you say Bitcoin has never been used for a mortgage?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/mighty-ducks-actor-brock-pierce-used-bitcoin-to-buy-1-2m-home-in-amsterdam
Looks like that’s a bank taking Bitcoin as collateral for a loan in fiat currency. That’s different than loaning Bitcoin and being repaid in Bitcoin.
Can you imagine having to give the bank twice the purchase price in dollars and still have to put up the house as collateral.
When you take out a mortgage based on dollars, you don't have to put up twice the amount you are borrowing, put up the house and pay 16% interest to boot.
Once more, you have accidentally made my point.
Quote: billryanDid I say no one had ever used bitcoin for a mortgage? No, and the example you gave isn't a real mortgage. It's backed by two times the value of the house, as well as the house itself.
Can you imagine having to give the bank twice the purchase price in dollars and still have to put up the house as collateral.
When you take out a mortgage based on dollars, you don't have to put up twice the amount you are borrowing, put up the house and pay 16% interest to boot.
Once more, you have accidentally made my point.
Article does NOT say he has to put the house up as collateral.
Looks to me that this guy took out a loan and put up Bitcoin as collateral. Then took the money and bought a house through a cash offer.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/sports/as-become-first-in-mlb-to-sell-tickets-for-bitcoin/2507261/
https://www.mlb.com/athletics/tickets/specials/dogecoin
Quote: mcallister3200Some chiefs reserve tight end gets paid fully in Bitcoin and pro bowl offensive tackle Russell Okung gets paid half his salary in Bitcoin but I think they use a salary to crypto exchange service, the team still pays USD.
If they had locked in bitcoin at last years price, they'd now own the team.
I didn't call anyone an idiot, I asked a question. Bob said you would have to be an idiot to buy a new car with bitcoin. That made absolutely ZERO sense and leads me to believe he doesn't understand BTC at all.Quote: billryanWhy would you call someone who disagrees with you an idiot. Is it fair to say that 98% of the world doesn't use BC.
Are we all idiots?
I asked who the idiot was, the guy who basically claimed something was worthless, or the guy that invested and made a S-ton and bought a new car with it.
You can call BTC a crappy currency/ investment and all the reasons why, I might even agree with you, but you will be wrong if you keep claiming it's not a currency.
In Economics they give pretty stringent terms something has to be to fit the description. Bitcoin is not the recognized means of exchange in any region, it isn't sponsored by any state for use within its jurisdiction, and has no standard deferred value.
If you want to say the old rules don't apply and new definitions need to be made, I'll disagree.
I've given you three reasons why I don't think it is a currency. How about you tell me why you think it is a currency?
So as of NOW BTC is not currency. But to me it is all semantics. If it is relatively easy to exchange BTC back and forth with a currency, then to me it doesn’t matter what you call it. If I own a BTC and need a new car, and can exchange the BTC for a currency that the dealer accepts, then for all intents and purposes it serves, to me, the same function as a currency.
Bob’s point about the stability of BTC is valid. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it is a currency. Apparently it will be a currency in a short while in El Salvador.
Quote: unJonLooks like that’s a bank taking Bitcoin as collateral for a loan in fiat currency. That’s different than loaning Bitcoin and being repaid in Bitcoin.
In France banks have given dairy farmers huge loans by taking in gigantic 1 ton blocks of Parmesan cheese as collateral. It takes the cheese years too ripen and hopefully the farmer will have the loan paid back in time to take the cheese to market. Darkoz would say the bank is making loans in cheese. Not quite.
Quote: SOOPOOCurrency…. A system of money in general use in a particular country.
Yes and yes. An accepted currency in a country means if you go to Walmart they have to take it. The only currency a Walmart has to accept is the USD. Bitcoin will never ever in a million years be an accepted currency in any major country. Just like gold is not. Go to Walmart and try and pay with gold. Although it has great value it is a commodity and it's value fluctuates greatly, just like Bitcoin. At one time in the Roman Empire salt was the accepted currency.
'The word "salary" was derived from the word "salt." Salt was highly valued and its production was legally restricted in ancient times, so it was historically used as a method of trade and currency.' Salt was used as currency in some African countries right up until the 20th century.
Quote: SOOPOOCurrency…. A system of money in general use in a particular country.
So as of NOW BTC is not currency. But to me it is all semantics. If it is relatively easy to exchange BTC back and forth with a currency, then to me it doesn’t matter what you call it. If I own a BTC and need a new car, and can exchange the BTC for a currency that the dealer accepts, then for all intents and purposes it serves, to me, the same function as a currency.
Bob’s point about the stability of BTC is valid. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it is a currency. Apparently it will be a currency in a short while in El Salvador.
A large part of El Salvador's economy comes from money sent from the USofA. Somewhere around 20% of the money spent there is earned in America and sent to support their families back home. Over the years, an entire industry has grown up around these remittances. As most of the amounts sent are small, the fees add up quickly. Someone might try to send $100 but fees eat it away so the person receives $65.
I'd be surprised if there is another country so dependent on these remittances.
If adopting bitcoin can reduce the cost of transferring money, the savings might be significant.
As far as countries go, El Salvador is pretty broken and doesn't have much to lose.
Let's see how it develops.
Quote: billryanA large part of El Salvador's economy comes from money sent from the USofA.
Most Americans have no idea how big a deal the USD is in other countries. When I sold on eBay I could not send anything to Brazil because it would get stolen by their post office workers. Any package or letter from the US was considered valuable and might contain money. So if you lived in Brazil and bought from eBay you had it shipped to a friend in a more trustworthy South American country and they would ship it to you from their country and it probably would not be stolen.
It may be a valid point if someone wants to claim it a good investment or not. Hasn't there been other recognized currencies that have lost tons of value over the last 5 to 10 years? Just because they have fluctuation, do we get to claim they are not a currency?Quote: SOOPOO
Bob’s point about the stability of BTC is valid. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it is a currency. Apparently it will be a currency in a short while in El Salvador.
Assuming all goes to plan in El Salvador after 90 days, or whatever, will bitcoin be a currency, Yes or No?
Let us know more when you have been to a number of countries. I was in Columbia not too long ago, and they would not take US dollars, even the casinos wouldn't take it on the floor or at the cage. Yet, a number of places were taking bitcoin.Quote: EvenBobMost Americans have no idea how big a deal the USD is in other countries. When I sold on eBay I could not send anything to Brazil because it would get stolen by their post office workers. Any package or letter from the US was considered valuable and might contain money. So if you lived in Brazil and bought from eBay you had it shipped to a friend in a more trustworthy South American country and they would ship it to you from their country and it probably would not be stolen.
