Thread Rating:

benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
September 20th, 2010 at 4:23:28 PM permalink
Foxwoods uses 8 decks and Mohegan Sun uses 6. The cut at MS is a horrendous 2 to 2 1/2 decks. Foxwoods cuts about 1 1/4-1 1/2 decks. Everyone knows the less decks the better so the question is do you want penetration approaching 80% in the 8 deck shoe or the low the 60's in the 6 deck shoe?

Fortunately, there is an alternative. You can play in the Newport room at Foxwoods or the high stakes pit in the MGM Grand at a 6 deck game. I've observed the penetration in the Newport room to be at least 75%. The table minimums are $50 so it's not for everyone and I'm not sure if they stay that low on the weekends.

I believe all the games can be beaten with the proper spread, Wonging, and indices but if you are a green chipper Foxwoods is worth looking at. The only difference in rules that I can think of is in pair splitting. At Foxwoods it's up to 4 hands and at MS it's unlimited. Unlike Mohegan Sun, Foxwoods allows splitting 10's, but be careful it could get you unwanted attention.

I have it on good authority that MS has reduced comp points for BJ again. I'm not posting the new percentages but if someone wants to know, I'll share what I heard. It's not great.

Foxwoods had a promo that would exchange one comp point for $1.00 cash up to $1000.00 on Saturday's through October 30th, but it has been postponed according to their website.
sabre
sabre
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:47:57 PM permalink
Every foxwoods backoff I've ever heard of has involved play in the high limit rooms.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:43:19 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

Every foxwoods backoff I've ever heard of has involved play in the high limit rooms.



Two summers ago I was flat bet one hand only at a $15 table. Fortunately, I didn't give my card because a friend was using it at the $5 slots. I stayed away for six months and all was well.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
October 24th, 2010 at 5:50:35 AM permalink
I stopped in at Foxwoods yesterday afternoon and saw something I've never seen there before. Mixed in with the $10-$25 BJ tables in the Grand Pequot Casino were a couple of tables with $20 minimums. I thought it was a mistake on the electronic table sign but it wasn't.

Call me old fashioned, but it just didn't look right. It makes me wonder why the $20 table has been avoided by most casinos.
cclub79
cclub79
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 1147
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
October 24th, 2010 at 6:46:43 AM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

I stopped in at Foxwoods yesterday afternoon and saw something I've never seen there before. Mixed in with the $10-$25 BJ tables in the Grand Pequot Casino were a couple of tables with $20 minimums. I thought it was a mistake on the electronic table sign but it wasn't.

Call me old fashioned, but it just didn't look right. It makes me wonder why the $20 table has been avoided by most casinos.



Probably has been avoided because it would just be too many red chips.

$20 is the common unit in Bacarrat (I'm sure you checked and made sure that it wasn't a couple of Bac tables?), but the game uses (yellow?) chips specific to that game. I've been at a BJ table where someone came from Bac and put the yellows in play. The dealer took them out of the game after a loss or replaced them after a win. When I cashed out, he gave them to me so I'd bring them back to the cage. They like to keep the units specific
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
October 24th, 2010 at 6:55:21 AM permalink
Quote: cclub79

Probably has been avoided because it would just be too many red chips.

$20 is the common unit in Bacarrat (I'm sure you checked and made sure that it wasn't a couple of Bac tables?), but the game uses (yellow?) chips specific to that game. I've been at a BJ table where someone came from Bac and put the yellows in play. The dealer took them out of the game after a loss or replaced them after a win. When I cashed out, he gave them to me so I'd bring them back to the cage. They like to keep the units specific



Definitely blackjack. One of the games was dead and I had a chance to speak with the dealer who was just as surprised as I was.
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
October 24th, 2010 at 4:24:44 PM permalink
I saw $20 mins. in a high-limit for the first time very recently, too. Maybe it is trending?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
October 24th, 2010 at 7:44:59 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

Probably has been avoided because it would just be too many red chips.

$20 is the common unit in Bacarrat (I'm sure you checked and made sure that it wasn't a couple of Bac tables?), but the game uses (yellow?) chips specific to that game. I've been at a BJ table where someone came from Bac and put the yellows in play. The dealer took them out of the game after a loss or replaced them after a win. When I cashed out, he gave them to me so I'd bring them back to the cage. They like to keep the units specific



Those yellow chips (sometimes more like tan, to differentiate from yellow $1k chips) are also pretty common in Pai Gow Poker where bets in multiples of $20 are common, to accommodate the vig.

I've always wondered why $15 was a fairly common BJ denomination but not $20. $20 would be pretty easy to keep neat, just pay in green and tap off $5 every time if necessary.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
October 28th, 2010 at 9:03:41 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
November 6th, 2010 at 1:36:15 PM permalink
About a month or so ago, Mohegan Sun moved the $5 pit to a different section of the casino. The rules are still the same with the dealer hitting soft 17. There are 12 of these tables, six of which have the match the dealer side bet and six which have the in between bet. These are the only in between bets that I've seen in the entire casino.

Within the past couple of weeks, these 12 tables have been outfitted with continuous shuffle machines. As we've learned from the Wizard, the house edge is slightly decreased, however the hands per hour are increased with these machines. MS has assigned it's fastest dealers to these tables and the hands per hour have increased way beyond the expected 20%.

Looking at total money wagered, it may be better in some cases to play at the S17 tables at a $10 minimum than to speed through these $5 tables. Granted there's a lot of variables but it's something to think about.

By the way, I check out these H17 tables periodically and have yet to see anyone use proper basic strategy. I've never played these tables nor would I especially now.
bgriffin
bgriffin
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 25
Joined: Feb 9, 2010
November 11th, 2010 at 2:03:29 PM permalink
Wait, Mohegan allows *unlimited* pair splitting? Seriously? I mean, obviously it wouldn't come up very often, but still, that's pretty unusual; I've never heard of any other casino allowing unlimited splits.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
November 11th, 2010 at 3:26:42 PM permalink
Quote: bgriffin

Wait, Mohegan allows *unlimited* pair splitting? Seriously? I mean, obviously it wouldn't come up very often, but still, that's pretty unusual; I've never heard of any other casino allowing unlimited splits.



They sure do and they have since day one. My record is 7 hands and I've seen 8 a couple of times.

Aces can be split only once and 10s can never be split. Re-splitting aces doesn't add all that much to your edge by the way.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 11th, 2010 at 4:43:45 PM permalink
I'm relatively certain that its allowed in AC as well.

I KNOW I've split 8s to five hands on a Sun Cruise near Myrtle Beach, SC about 5 years ago....
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
weaselman
weaselman
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
November 11th, 2010 at 6:20:33 PM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

Re-splitting aces doesn't add all that much to your edge by the way.


About 0.068% - not very little, about as much as late surrender option (0.07%)
I am too lazy to calculate for infinite resplitting, but the difference between no resplits at all and 4 hands is even less - ~0.054%. I think, the difference between 4 hands and infinite should be even less, because of low frequency of the hands that give you a chance to use that option (an opportunity to split to 5 hands is about once in 30,000 hands, not even taking into account that you don't always want to split a pair).
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
November 21st, 2010 at 7:26:08 AM permalink
I mentioned this briefly in another thread but refrained from commenting further until I could observe it first hand which I did yesterday. When the cards are changed or a table is opened at Foxwoods, the new cards are no longer spread for the players to see. This pertains to 8 deck blackjack only. The cards now come from the supplier in sealed pre-shuffled 8 deck packs. The dealer grabs about 2 decks out of the box, quickly spreads them face up and goes straight to the shuffle. If you are paying attention, you'll see 100 or so random cards. You will not see the faces of any of the other cards. A significant amount of time is saved which is beneficial to the casino and I don't see any down side for the player.

The naysayers and conspiracy theorists are out there, however, with the main concern being that cards could be removed or switched surreptitiously. While technically possible, I wouldn't be too concerned at this venue given its size and reputation.

In other Foxwoods news, the policy of backline betting allowed since 1992 has been rescinded effective July 12th. The official line is there were too many arguments between the players. The unofficial line is that savvy players were able to exploit it. Why it took almost 20 years for them to figure out either is beyond me.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
January 1st, 2011 at 4:23:22 PM permalink
Foxwoods now hits soft 17 at 6 of their 12 tables in the Great Cedar Casino. Thus far, these are the only tables doing so. There are also more $20 tables especially on the weekends. I observed 8 of them and almost every player was betting green with just a few betting 4 red.

MGM Grand at Foxwoods has 25 blackjack tables and only 2 of these are hit soft 17. Tables at Foxwoods have 6 player spots and MGM has an annoying 7 spots.

Penetration at both was good with dealers cutting out 1 1/4 decks from the 8 deck shoes.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
April 27th, 2011 at 10:57:51 AM permalink
Effective tomorrow all blackjack tables at Foxwoods and MGM Grand will hit soft 17. The felts will be replaced overnight. The only exceptions will be the high stakes Newport Room and the ultra high stakes Stargazer Casino which is invitation only. Can Mohegan Sun be far behind?

Since this is breaking news, I'll keep an eye on it and post any updates or corrections.
lucky13
lucky13
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 70
Joined: Nov 1, 2009
April 27th, 2011 at 11:01:07 AM permalink
Thanks Ben. Good Info. Hopefully Mohegan sees it as a competitive advantage, rather than the duopoly. Was thinking about going this weekend to get my poker on. Has the poker room been busier since the online ban? (sorry, a bit off topic)
mgreiche
mgreiche
  • Threads: 19
  • Posts: 41
Joined: Mar 13, 2011
April 27th, 2011 at 12:17:48 PM permalink
This sucks!

Ben, can I ask where did you get this information from?
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
April 27th, 2011 at 1:20:37 PM permalink
Quote: mgreiche

This sucks!

Ben, can I ask where did you get this information from?



There is a one page memo on the desk in every pit. I held one in my own hands and read it. I then went to the three main casinos in Foxwoods and verified it with the pit boss in each one. Not clear on MGM, I hiked it over there and verified it with their pit boss. I know three of the four bosses and they are straight shooters.

There must have been a lot of talk about it among the employees. I wouldn't normally expect them to know the extra house edge but they did. Many of them cited .2% and some even nailed the .22%.

These were beatable 8 deck games, but they're going to take a lot more work now. It's a lovely 8 mile ride from Foxwoods to Mohegan Sun.
mgreiche
mgreiche
  • Threads: 19
  • Posts: 41
Joined: Mar 13, 2011
April 27th, 2011 at 1:37:37 PM permalink
As of now, the Foxwoods website indicates that for BJ, "Dealers must stand on all totals of 17 or higher". If they make the change to hit on S17 I hope they will update their website to reflect this change.

I make the trip to Foxwoods about once a month. Since the Newport Room is a little out of my range, I won't be playing at Foxwoods now with a .65% house edge. Looks like the Sun will become my new home for BJ.

Thanks for the info.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
April 27th, 2011 at 4:47:30 PM permalink
Quote: mgreiche

As of now, the Foxwoods website indicates that for BJ, "Dealers must stand on all totals of 17 or higher". If they make the change to hit on S17 I hope they will update their website to reflect this change.

I make the trip to Foxwoods about once a month. Since the Newport Room is a little out of my range, I won't be playing at Foxwoods now with a .65% house edge. Looks like the Sun will become my new home for BJ.

Thanks for the info.



Don't expect them to advertise it on their website. I certainly wouldn't. This is a great opportunity for Mohegan Sun. They should be advertising their 6 deck S17 games and offering promotions aimed at luring players away from Foxwoods.
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
April 28th, 2011 at 11:54:13 AM permalink
Quote: lucky13

Thanks Ben. Good Info. Hopefully Mohegan sees it as a competitive advantage, rather than the duopoly. Was thinking about going this weekend to get my poker on. Has the poker room been busier since the online ban? (sorry, a bit off topic)[/q

Did you mean poker at Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun? I've met quite a few first timers at both casinos recently and some were very young. I never thought to associate it with the online problems. Many poker players enjoy a little blackjack to pass the time.

I will be at Foxwoods tomorrow morning to personally verify the change in the blackjack rules. I'll post my findings around this time tomorrow, so that anyone planning a weekend trip will have the information.

odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 28th, 2011 at 2:16:51 PM permalink
please do report back!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
April 29th, 2011 at 10:54:57 AM permalink
Every blackjack table at Foxwoods is now H17 with the last of the felts being replaced last night. There is no change to the Newport Room. MGM Grand is S17 right now, but is scheduled to be H17 by the beginning of next week. There is a small high limit room with blackjack only in MGM and the fate of those tables is undecided. The general opinion is that they will remain six deck S17.

On April 22, Foxwoods announced the hiring of Frank Leone as Vice President, Table Games. Mr. Leone's last position was casino manager at Trump Taj Mahal. Prior to that he was assistant casino shift manager at Caesars Atlantic City and has over 20 years at Harrah's Entertainment. Speculation is that the new guy wants to shake things up.

Hitting soft 17 raises the house edge. If you are a basic strategy player, weekend player, or any type of casual player just there for fun - GO TO MOHEGAN SUN ! It's a no brainer. With 6 decks and S17 the house edge is lower, you will lose less and they will grandfather you- Foxwoods won't. Pit personnel have been instructed to downplay this change. Do not listen to them!

It's not so cut and dry for card counters because there are other factors involved.
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 11:10:44 AM permalink
As Bill Zender says in "Casino-ology" there is NO QUESTION that casinos should make this change. The general public does not know the difference between S17 and H17, and the gain you get from the increased house edge will more than offset the bitching and leaving from the knowledgeable players (who you don't want in your casino anyway).

Me? I'll be going to Mohegan Sun.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
zerosum79
zerosum79
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 4
Joined: Apr 29, 2011
April 29th, 2011 at 11:33:50 AM permalink
Looks like the economy is hitting the casinos hard and they are looking to pick up the slack where players don't notice. Too bad when the economy picks up this will be the new norm and will never switch back.

BJ games just keep getting worse.
zero
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 12:42:41 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

The general public does not know the difference between S17 and H17 . . . .

Count me as part of the general public that doesn't know.

In fact, there are TWO things I don't know.



I can never remember if S17 / H17 stands for Stand/Hit or Soft/Hard, although I realize it makes more sense to be the former.

But then I see comments like this, from the first post on this page:
Quote: mgreiche

If they make the change to hit on S17...




The other thing I can't figure out is why it's better if the dealer stands on soft 17.

I mean, if I don't hit a weak hand like a 15 because the dealer is showing a 6, don't I WANT him to hit if he's got an ace?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 12:57:35 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


The other thing I can't figure out is why it's better if the dealer stands on soft 17.

I mean, if I don't hit a weak hand like a 15 because the dealer is showing a 6, don't I WANT him to hit if he's got an ace?



As player, the hitting on a lot of the "softs" is not particularly intuitive. You pretty much hit or double with soft 18 against most dealer hands, for instance. So it would seem my gut feeling that hitting these hands is a path to disaster is not reliable.

And you never stand on soft 17. Evidently for Dealer there is advantage to hitting too; it's surprising how much it matters.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 1:28:29 PM permalink
I think you missed my point. Or I didn't express it very well.


If I have 15 and the dealer is showing a 6, I expect him to take a hit. So hitting on soft 17 is what I expect. Further, if the hit card is 5-9, then his total is 12-16 and he's got a shot at busting, which is what you were hoping for all along.

Oh, sure, he's got a better chance that the hit card will give him a total of 17-21, or that the hit is 5-9 and the next hit gives him 17-21, but if I have 15, it's no different than if he stood on soft 17. Therefore, it seems to me, I'd want him to hit that soft 17.

---

The Wiz' strategy card has few differences for 4-8 decks between S17 and H17. One I find intriguing is soft 19 v 6. Stand on S17, double on H17.

In my mind, the reason for this difference is that the chance that he's got the ace makes it not worth it on a S17 table. But on a H17 table, the dealer has more chances to bust, so the double becomes worth it.

So, again, H17 seems preferable to me.





Please note:

I am NOT trying to refute the math that says S17 is better for the player than H17.

I'm just trying to point out why a member of the general public (like myself) may think that H17 is better.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 1:41:15 PM permalink
well, one thing for sure, if you stand on 15 vs 6 , dealer turns over his cards, he's got soft 17, brother all of a sudden you like the new rule of must hit soft 17.

>double on H17.

do you need to review? surely you never take another card on a hard 17?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 3:38:44 PM permalink
It is counter-intuitive. The dealer WILL bust more if he hits S17. However, the amount of times he hits and outdraws you when you have >17 will outweigh the times he busts when you have <17.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 29th, 2011 at 8:25:16 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

well, one thing for sure, if you stand on 15 vs 6 , dealer turns over his cards, he's got soft 17, brother all of a sudden you like the new rule of must hit soft 17.

That's what I'm saying.
Quote: odiousgambit

> double on H17.

do you need to review? surely you never take another card on a hard 17?

Sorry to be blunt, but you're the one who needs the review. "H17" means "Dealer HITS on Soft 17."
The example I quoted was what the two strategy cards state when you have a soft 17 and the dealer is showing a 6.



Quote: teddys

It is counter-intuitive.

That kinda also confirms my point. The general public will go on intuition, which may be counter to what the math says.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
April 30th, 2011 at 2:50:34 AM permalink
I can see the confusion. I usually use the letter S for stay and write out the word soft.

Another one is Ct. which is the abbreviation for Connecticut, but sometimes CT is used for Charles Town home of the Hollywood Casino in West Virginia.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
April 30th, 2011 at 4:01:42 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I can never remember if S17 / H17 stands for Stand/Hit or Soft/Hard, although I realize it makes more sense to be the former.



Quote: DJTeddyBear

The Wiz' strategy card has few differences for 4-8 decks between S17 and H17. One I find intriguing is soft 19 v 6. Stand on S17, double on H17.

In my mind, the reason for this difference is that the chance that he's got the ace makes it not worth it on a S17 table. But on a H17 table, the dealer has more chances to bust, so the double becomes worth it.

So, again, H17 seems preferable to me.



Feel free to be blunt, but if I may also risk poster ire, I thought you were feeling free to mix the jargon up as per your first remark. I get it now.

It is also intriguing that the player now doubles on all 11's, even against dealer Ace, if in the H17 game. My mind can't handle the 'why' on that either. My gut says you'd go more conservative! So I also just accept that it is counter-intuitive.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Kellynbnf
Kellynbnf
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 198
Joined: May 5, 2010
April 30th, 2011 at 5:47:53 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

It is also intriguing that the player now doubles on all 11's, even against dealer Ace, if in the H17 game. My mind can't handle the 'why' on that either. My gut says you'd go more conservative! So I also just accept that it is counter-intuitive.



The reasoning is similar to that of the other hands you'd double with H17 but not S17: It's because of one of the rules of doubling - since you can't draw more cards after doubling, the increased likelihood of a dealer bust helps mitigate those cases where you get stuck with a stiff hand after doubling (turning a borderline double/not double situation the other way). The other side of H17 - the dealer improving a 17 into an 18-21 - is not as important of a consideration with doubling since you wouldn't take anymore cards anyway if you had 17 or more.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 30th, 2011 at 6:23:03 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Feel free to be blunt, but if I may also risk poster ire, I thought you were feeling free to mix the jargon up as per your first remark. I get it now.

I think we're in agreement here.

It's the counter-intuitive stuff that screws with your head.


On an unrelated note, I generally do not hit on hard 16, unless the dealer is showing an ace. I've mentioned that in other threads, and the general response is that the math shows hitting to be better, but by such a slim margin that I'm not giving much away.

Slim margins: They can screw with your head too.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
benbakdoff
benbakdoff
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 448
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
May 1st, 2011 at 5:03:35 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I think we're in agreement here.

It's the counter-intuitive stuff that screws with your head.


On an unrelated note, I generally do not hit on hard 16, unless the dealer is showing an ace. I've mentioned that in other threads, and the general response is that the math shows hitting to be better, but by such a slim margin that I'm not giving much away.

Slim margins: They can screw with your head too.



Staying on a hard 16 against a 10 is very close. Fortunately I have surrender available. Since I don't play in negative shoes all that much, I stay on 3 card 16's against a 10 quite often. It's not so close when you have 16 vs 7. You must hit and that IS counter-intuitive.

Even some of the "experts" have trouble with that one.
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
May 1st, 2011 at 8:29:15 AM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

Staying on a hard 16 against a 10 is very close. Fortunately I have surrender available. Since I don't play in negative shoes all that much, I stay on 3 card 16's against a 10 quite often. It's not so close when you have 16 vs 7. You must hit and that IS counter-intuitive.

Even some of the "experts" have trouble with that one.

Right, well you can simply think about the dealer most likely has 17, and if you draw a small card, you have an excellent chance to beat them.

If they have a ten up, your small card isn't going to help you (unless it's a 4 or a 5) against their 20.

I agree it is a little hard for some to grasp.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Kellynbnf
Kellynbnf
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 198
Joined: May 5, 2010
May 1st, 2011 at 8:30:57 AM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

Staying on a hard 16 against a 10 is very close. Fortunately I have surrender available. Since I don't play in negative shoes all that much, I stay on 3 card 16's against a 10 quite often. It's not so close when you have 16 vs 7. You must hit and that IS counter-intuitive.

Even some of the "experts" have trouble with that one.



I think I have an explanation on why 16 vs. 7 is clearly a hit, while 16 vs. 10 is borderline:
With the former the most likely dealer final hand is 17, so if you manage to pull anything from a 2-5 the odds will then be strongly in your favor.
With the latter the most likely dealer final hand is 20, so even if you dodge busting you are less likely to end up ultimately winning; thus you become more inclined to stay and hope for a bust.

Here's a bit of interesting information that I once asked somewhere else: Overall, are you better off (independent of what your hand actually is) if the dealer shows a 2 or a 7?

Edit: I mentioned how teddys posted the same thing just before me in the next post which I made by accident.
Kellynbnf
Kellynbnf
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 198
Joined: May 5, 2010
May 1st, 2011 at 8:32:10 AM permalink
Quote: Kellynbnf

I think I have an explanation on why 16 vs. 7 is clearly a hit, while 16 vs. 10 is borderline:
With the former the most likely dealer final hand is 17, so if you manage to pull anything from a 2-5 the odds will then be strongly in your favor.
With the latter the most likely dealer final hand is 20, so even if you dodge busting you are less likely to end up ultimately winning; thus you become more inclined to stay and hope for a bust.

Here's a bit of interesting information that I once asked somewhere else: Overall, are you better off (independent of what your hand actually is) if the dealer shows a 2 or a 7?



Edit: teddys beat me by a bit over a minute posting a similar explanation.

Edit again: I accidentally quoted my message instead of editing it.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
May 1st, 2011 at 8:46:30 AM permalink
Quote: Kellynbnf

Here's a bit of interesting information that I once asked somewhere else: Overall, are you better off (independent of what your hand actually is) if the dealer shows a 2 or a 7?



the WoO has a chart that will give the answer, but without looking at that, considering the typical Basic Strat. decision, I would have to guess 7 is worse.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Acoplander1
Acoplander1
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 20
Joined: Nov 3, 2010
May 1st, 2011 at 12:38:11 PM permalink
I'll take the dealer showing a 7 rather than a 2 anyday. In fact, I'll take an 8 over a 2 as well.
  • Jump to: