KJ trip report

My partner/chauffeur and I, leave home in the western part of the valley at 10:40 am. 8 minutes later we arrive at Suncoast casino. I can mention the name because this property is not in my blackjack rotation.
We head straight to the weekend brunch buffet, where being emerald level players card we avoid the fairly decent line. Buffet price is $12.99, but emerald gets some sort of discount (not exactly sure how much), we have a 2 for 1 coupon and pay with points. Less than $10 in points for the two of us, + tip.

I have an enjoyable conversation with a couple 'cowboys' from Montana at the next table in town for the rodeo. Generally the rodeo crowd is one of my least favorite visiting groups...maybe this pleasant conversation will bump up my opinion of them. :)

After breakfast my partner and I play through some machine free play, $60 in my account and $100 on his. We play video poker at the 25 cent level to avoid any further handpays for the year. Total cash out $147.50.

10 minute drive to another local (chain) casino, where I am dropped at the door and head for the blackjack tables, while my partner parks and will play through a combines $240 in free play. He will also play though $8000 on one of the accounts to continue to generate future mail offer free play.

I avoid the double deck blackjack games at this location (counter traps) and opt for their decent 6 deck game, which usually has nice penetration. There are two other players at the table and dealer has just dealt the first round, so it is good timing. I sit down, chips in hand (no buy-in) and begin playing.

About 10 uneventful rounds at my minimum $25 wager, then count begins to grow positive so I bump up to $75 and the $150. I lose both rounds. True count is now plus 2 and I wager $200. At this time, one of the other players spreads to 2 hands. I know he is not counting because he hasn't been altering his bets or even playing that well, so he is just going to eat some of the good cards. Oh well. What are you going to do?

So count hits TC +3, and I throw out my max bet $400 (staying below critical $500 threshold at this property). I lose the max bet wager and now have only $325 in chips remaining, so that is my bet. I get an 5.3 vs dealer 6, which is a double down at TC +3, so I buy-in for more. This is my first buy-in and the first time female pit takes notice of me, asking for a players card. I decline telling here I have to leave at the shuffle.

I win the double down but lose 3 of my remaining 4 max bets. The final two rounds were actually below my max bet threshold, but still, decent advantage, so I kept to my max bet. At the shuffle I exit, without coloring up, down $275 for what I estimate are 21 rounds played or EV of about $26 ($1.25 EV/round).

I usually exit after showing my max bet as I did here, rather than retreat back to minimum wager, but sometimes with a very short session like this, I will play a second time through my spread if I have played relatively unnoticed. I might have done that here, but that little extra attention when I bought in halfway through the shoe while playing max bet, sealed the deal that I would exit at the shuffle, only getting in a very short session.

With such a short session, I have the better part of an hour to kill, while my partner finishes up his responsibilities, so I head to the sportsbook where I watch the first quarter of Army-Navy game.

My partner has turned the $240 free play into $186.25 and lost another $112.50 playing through the $8000 to generate future offers. So our machine play total is $333.75 from free play, less $112.50 lost playing through $8000 for a profit of $221.25. My blackjack total -$275, for a grand total of -$53.75. We are partners on the machine play but the blackjack play is all me, so actually my short day is about -$165.

We return home, about a 15 minute drive to watch the rest of Army-Navy and probably take an afternoon nap. My exciting life as a low/med limit card counting AP. :/

Thanks for sharing. Just curious why you had him drop you off.

Quote: GWAE

Thanks for sharing. Just curious why you had him drop you off.

If KewlJ gets tossed for counting he doesn't want his partner to be guilty by association is my guess.

Quote: GWAE

Thanks for sharing. Just curious why you had him drop you off.

Quote: Mission146

If KewlJ gets tossed for counting he doesn't want his partner to be guilty by association is my guess.

There are a couple places that we are REAL careful about drops offs and pick ups. Places that will try to link a player to his vehicle and actually have security drive around with license plate scanners. South Point is one such place, so beware. A couple of the strip places do some of that. But most of the local type places that I mostly frequent, we don't worry too much about it, nor have had any problems.

So the answer GWAE, is it was COLD here in Vegas today. At that time it was probably 50 degrees with a stiff breeze. No sense in both of us "freezing" our asses off. LoL.

Lmao at freezing at 5 degrees. It is currently 56 degrees here and I have shorts and t shirt on.

I was wondering if the association thing was the reason but was just curious.

Sorry you didn't have a better blackjack session (at Red Rock?).

Thanks KJ for your TR. It was very interesting.
I really like how your report shows how disciplined you are with you BJ plan. Most of us would chase that loss, trying to end on a positive session.
Of course q big factor is the difference between living near a casino(s) where you can easily play anytime you want, versus, like many of us, having to travel a fair distance to get to a casino. I'm not traveling 4 hours to play through one 6 deck shoe of BJ and then call it a day.

Without divulging too much, can you explain how you have decided a $25 to $400 spread is tolerated at this place, but yet you seem pretty certain a $500 bet would bring problems? Is that because you would be at a 20x spread, or is more related to what would happen when 'purple is in play' ?

Hi KJ,

Thanks for the insightful trip report. My question is about your short hit and run style. Do you tip the dealers if you were to have a winning session instead and what size win would entail tipping if any. Or would you not tip playing this way regardless? Do you think that a symbolic tip at the end of a session would create more of a friendly environment and beneficial for blending in and for future return trips? Thanks

Regards,
Wino

Quote: RaleighCraps

Thanks KJ for your TR. It was very interesting.
I really like how your report shows how disciplined you are with you BJ plan. Most of us would chase that loss, trying to end on a positive session.
Of course q big factor is the difference between living near a casino(s) where you can easily play anytime you want, versus, like many of us, having to travel a fair distance to get to a casino. I'm not traveling 4 hours to play through one 6 deck shoe of BJ and then call it a day.

Without divulging too much, can you explain how you have decided a $25 to $400 spread is tolerated at this place, but yet you seem pretty certain a $500 bet would bring problems? Is that because you would be at a 20x spread, or is more related to what would happen when 'purple is in play' ?

A one session day lasting all of 15 minutes isn't exactly a typical day for me, RaleighCraps. I was sort of having a little fun by posting such a report.

The discipline and chasing thing is something I learned a long time ago. As a professional player, you have to be ok, with losing....it's just part of the equation and at times occurs for weeks on end. It helps if you focus on accumulating EV and let the winning and losing take care of itself. Things will eventually even out.

I don't use any set spread like 1-16 (this case). It is different at many (most) places. When determining my spread/ramp, I work backwards from max bet. Because I play the same rotation of stores, longevity is my top priority, rather than maximizing short-term earnings. So, I have had to get a feel for what is and isn't tolerated at different stores. This involves max bet as well as spread and also amount of time you play.

Identifying what I call these comfort or tolerance levels is mostly trial and error. Sometimes there are backoffs involved in this learning process, but you don't have to get to actual backoffs to see the heat...to see just what starts to makes different stores and/or pit people begin to get nervous or uncomfortable.

There are natural threshold levels which seem to draw different attention at many places. $500 is one of those key threshold levels at many places, especially many of the local type places, so I max below that usually at $400. $400 or $450 is just tolerated much better than $500 at many places.

There are a few places where their choke point is even tighter and I max at $300 or $250. Some of the bigger strip casinos, have a much higher threshold and you can go well beyond $500, especially during the busier times of day/week. I usually punch up to about $800 in this type of situation, staying below the next threshold amount which is $1000.

After a while you just get a feel for a place and if you are wrong, you usually can spot the signs before an actual backoff occurs. Based on my experience casinos and most pit personnel really don't want to back you off. This is where short session comes into play. If you stay within their comfort levels as far as bets and don't stay too long, they tolerate you better. Not saying they like you, but they tolerate you (not all but most). What I try to do is not 'force' anyone to have to answer for my play. That is the quickest way to wear out your.....well not welcome, but their tolerance of your co-existence.

Quote: Wino

Hi KJ,

Thanks for the insightful trip report. My question is about your short hit and run style. Do you tip the dealers if you were to have a winning session instead and what size win would entail tipping if any. Or would you not tip playing this way regardless? Do you think that a symbolic tip at the end of a session would create more of a friendly environment and beneficial for blending in and for future return trips? Thanks

Regards,
Wino

Hey happy 1 year WoV member anniversary...Wino. :)

Oh boy......the tipping bugaboo. There are/have been many threads on tipping. Lol. I am not a big tipper.

First I don't tip as some card counter do trying/hoping to get better penetration. Because I play such short sessions, I probably wouldn't even benefit from deeper penetration in future shoes....I am probably gone before they occur....if they occur. Also because of my very short session, hit and run approach, it isn't like I am sitting at one table for a long time enjoying or appreciating that particular dealer.

Most of my sessions are less than 30 minutes, some less than 10 minutes. My advantage is very slim. Take the short session described in my 'trip report'. EV was $26. What am I going to tip? If I throw a nickel as I leave I have given up 20% of my EV!

So call me what you want (and many members here do), I am not a big tipper. The most I do is throw an odd $2.50 that I have from a blackjack or insurance wager to the dealer when I exit, just so I have less to carry.

Great post as usual Kewlj. I always enjoy reading about your blackjack adventures. My question relates to your "counter trap" comment. I recall you making this comment at least once before when you mentioned the Golden Nugget DD game specifically. Do you say these games are a trap because you have been caught in them before and you think the casinos use DD games as a way to identity counters? Or is it just because DD games don't fit in with a hit and run style and playing them really exposes your spread? I am guessing that the counter traps occurr mainly at casinos with lower tolerance levels, but would like to hear more of your insights on this topic. Again, thanks for sharing a day in the life...

Quote: AB21

Great post as usual Kewlj. I always enjoy reading about your blackjack adventures. My question relates to your "counter trap" comment. I recall you making this comment at least once before when you mentioned the Golden Nugget DD game specifically. Do you say these games are a trap because you have been caught in them before and you think the casinos use DD games as a way to identity counters? Or is it just because DD games don't fit in with a hit and run style and playing them really exposes your spread? I am guessing that the counter traps occurr mainly at casinos with lower tolerance levels, but would like to hear more of your insights on this topic. Again, thanks for sharing a day in the life...

"Counter trap" is a term I use to describe many double deck games in Vegas. While I doubt they are setting up a game for the sole purpose of attracting and catching counters ( a few DD games on the strip almost seems like it), the phrase generally just means these games are closely hawked and protected, based on both my own experiences and a few other players that I network with.

Some of the places that have these closely watched DD games, have shoe games at the next table that they are much more tolerant with. So, if you are a player that rolls into town once or twice a year, you can afford to risk these better double deck games, but if you live here, or play here regularly, playing these games can kill any hope of longevity in this town, so you are better of skipping them and focusing on the shoe games.

Hit and run style is still compatible with double deck games with some adjustments. Unlike most 6 deck games I play where I only show my spread a single time before exit, I generally will show my spread at least a couple times, usually 2-3 at double deck before exiting because I play with a smaller spread with DD and there are things you can do to cover up a bit and make your spread look even less, like spreading BOTH ways. This will cut down on that biggest of 'tells', retreating back from a max bet to a minimum bet after a shuffle.

Vegas wisdom.
Not Southern, definitely not Southern.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Vegas wisdom.
Not Southern, definitely not Southern.

Can you expand on that 2F, as I am not 100% sure what you are getting at.

I think what you are saying is that my approach, which is tailored for my situation of living in Vegas and most of my play taking place here, would not work other places. And I agree with that 100%.

Just this week Munchkin and Dancer interviewed a card counter (link below), not professional, but I guess semi-pro, who is based in the south and some of the things he talked about, his approach, casino limits, even casino procedures, were like so foreign to me, I found myself saying "Whoa".

I guess the moral is that you tailor your game and approach for the opportunities you have.

BTW, if the card counter, "Mike" that was interviewed is a member here, as he indicated he participates on several forum, I have some follow up questions, I would like to ask in private.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M3hKk_Z7ZrM

Well that link doesn't work as I planned. Not sure why. I will have to figure it out after football. In the meantime, I think you can go to Munchkin's site or the gambling with an edge site and listen to the show.

Quote: kewlj

Can you expand on that 2F, as I am not 100% sure what you are getting at.

For once I have a guess of what 2F may be getting at :). Maybe it was your comment about the Rodeo crowd. My wife and I made a pact never to return to Vegas again during Rodeo week. Not so much because of the "crowd" as they can be mildly entertaining at times, but more so the pain of listening to that music all week!

Quote: kewlj

Can you expand on that 2F, as I am not 100% sure what you are getting at.

I think what you are saying is that my approach, which is tailored for my situation of living in Vegas and most of my play taking place here, would not work other places. And I agree with that 100%.

Just this week Munchkin and Dancer interviewed a card counter (link below), not professional, but I guess semi-pro, who is based in the south and some of the things he talked about, his approach, casino limits, even casino procedures, were like so foreign to me, I found myself saying "Whoa".

I guess the moral is that you tailor your game and approach for the opportunities you have.

BTW, if the card counter, "Mike" that was interviewed is a member here, as he indicated he participates on several forum, I have some follow up questions, I would like to ask in private.

[video=youtube;M3hKk_Z7ZrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M3hKk_Z7ZrM[/video]

Longer response than was deserved.
You are "cool" regardless ;-). (Only slightly hidden joke in a joke).

Quote: kewlj

Well that link doesn't work as I planned. Not sure why. I will have to figure it out after football. In the meantime, I think you can go to Munchkin's site or the gambling with an edge site and listen to the show.

I fixed it because I wanted to watch it. Sorry if that was presumptuous! lol...hit "edit" or "quote" if you want to see what I did. You can delete the link below the video if you want to; it's not needed, but I left it because I didn't want to edit your post more than the minimum to make it work.

Quote: kewlj

Most of my sessions are less than 30 minutes, some less than 10 minutes. My advantage is very slim. Take the short session described in my 'trip report'. EV was $26. What am I going to tip? If I throw a nickel as I leave I have given up 20% of my EV!

I've made a similar comment before. I don't necessarily disagree with your tipping philosophy. However, dealers don't expect you to tip on a short losing or breakeven session. So if you throw a red chip on a non trivial win during a $26 EV session, that tip is really costing you about $2 in the long run. So, a bit under 10% of your EV. Significant, but not nearly as bad as the 20% you claim.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I fixed it because I wanted to watch it. Sorry if that was presumptuous! lol...hit "edit" or "quote" if you want to see what I did. You can delete the link below the video if you want to; it's not needed, but I left it because I didn't want to edit your post more than the minimum to make it work.

Good job, BBB. Thank you.