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Mission146
Mission146
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September 14th, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wellbush

i don't object to everything you say, before you say it. i judge everything on its merits.

as far as saying i'm partially guilty of hate speech, i reject that entirely and i don't think anyone should be saying that. i explained my position on the matter (that it was simply a joke, and i had no ill feeling toward any race. and i apologised if people were offended).



I'm saying that was one of the stated potential reasons for your most recent suspension; that's just a fact. Anyway, you served that suspension and I don't recall arguing against your explanation after you gave it. I'm simply suggesting that might be why some people interpreted your more recent post as perhaps being something that you say that it is not.

Quote:

if your 1. bringing it up again, i think you may still have some unresolved issues with it, and 2. adding it on to this one, then you think i'm guilty of racism (from my past and present statements) even though i've categorically stated and explained otherwise. if you don't think i'm guilty of racism, why are you suggesting that i need to be accountable for two separate offences.

again, if people react a certain way, are they reacting to something triggered inside themselves, or what the poster is intending? if someone's unsure, they can ask the poster for clarification.

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    I'm not bringing it up for that reason. You served your Suspension and it's none of my concern. You seem to be missing the part where I said I don't necessarily see a problem with your recent posts.

    Anyway, I'm not particularly concerned with what your intent was because I didn't see the most recent posts as inherently racist in the first place.
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    gordonm888
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    gordonm888
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    September 14th, 2021 at 11:03:30 PM permalink
    Quote: kalc

    Making judgments on people solely based on their ethnic or gender identity is the definition of racism and sexism. The judgment criteria does not even need to be negative. You can say "Asians are very good at math, so that's why they win at casinos", and that would be a racist statement. By doing so, you would have taken away someone's humanity, and reduced them to a basic stereotype. Asians are no longer human beings with individual agency, but merely expressions of their assigned social group.

    Such a statement would also reveal an incredible degree of laziness and/or ignorance. People of Asian descent make up around 60% of the world's population, and are made up of groups with cultures that are as diverse as those in any other continent in the world. Yet, in this thread, certain qualities are imbued onto all Asians based on a few casual observations of a few individuals in casinos in Perth, Las Vegas, and Macau. Asians in Perth (and Australia in general) are comprised of mainly of Chinese immigrants who arrived during the gold rush of the 1850-60's, Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees from the 1970's, working class and professional migrants from the Philippines and India since the 1970's, middle class economic migrants from Hong Kong and Taiwan from the 1980-90's, and middle class economic and educational migrants from mainland China since 2000. Which of these specific groups whose women does Wellbush believe are addicted to gambling? Is gambling in the culture of all of these groups, or just some?

    Macau is the only place in China where gambling is legal, and its visitors are mainly middle class and upper class individuals from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The Chinese players in the high stakes poker games in Macau are tremendously wealthy, or are offspring of the tremendously wealthy. The cutthroat capitalism in China of the past 30+ years have created a class of the ultra-rich. The ones who survived did so because of their ruthless nature and psychopathic obsession to win. Money means nothing to those people, except as a means to keep score. Does the top 0.1% of Chinese society reflect the values of all Chinese, and all Asian poker players? Your statement seems to think so.

    Macau received nearly 28 million visitors from mainland China in 2019. China's population was 1.433 billion in 2019. What cultural observations did you make on the 1.405 billion Chinese people who did not visit Macau in 2019? Do you think that all of those people also like to be loose and splashy at a poker table, except that they just gamble illegally outside of Macau, because they can't afford to or don't want to go through the hassle of getting a permit to visit Macau? This is such an easy case of selection bias to spot; yet multiple people in this thread seem to be falling for it.

    Finally, your comparison of a poker pro using heuristics to categorize opponents is not even valid. Poker is game of imperfect information, but within a few rounds, it is possible to make highly accurate observations on an opponent's play style, especially when the opponent is veering widely from optimal play. The observations don't even need to be that precise. If you think that someone's range is not well constructed, and they are folding just 3% too much, a solver will tell you to bluff everything, because every bluff is now profitable. Likewise, if someone is calling just 3% too much, then a solver will tell you to never bluff, widen your value range, and size up your value bets. Maximally exploiting your opponent's weaknesses is simply the optimal strategy.

    At a poker table, everyone agrees to the rules of the game when they sit down. Your have an adversarial relationship with your opponents, and it is fine to use heuristics to maximize profits. When you are just walking past someone on the street, they're not asking to be judged.

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    I agree with much of what you have said, but I think in your objection you badly mischaracterize what I said. At a poker table, I try to be very aware of my image, and I am very aware that age and gender and ethnicity are part of my initial image. I try to assess and manipulate my image at the table on an ongoing basis, and I use whatever knowledge of the world I glean to do that with. And at many tournaments, players are constantly changing tables as the field is reduced, so your glib assertions about how players know your game in 3 rounds with great precision are vapid bloviating and worthless, in my opinion. I play in significant WSOP poker tournaments, and I don't value inaccurate statements from an anonymous entity who rarely posts on this forum.

    Some female poker players would tell you that some male poker players tend to make certain assumptions about the playing style of unknown female players, and they would tell you how they use that information. That's an interesting discussion. I am not going to disallow people from discussing those kind of gambling-specific issues because you claim to find it offensive and want to name-call.

    My comments on Macau poker games are widely echoed throughout the poker community and are no more sinister than saying that your local poker casino seems to have tight games on Monday afternoons and loose games on Friday night. My comment on high stakes games was never intended to be interpreted as a comment on the hundred of millions Chinese people who never gamble. You are free to interpret anything in a way that you wish to, but I am free to ignore you.

    If you want to know about the ethnicities of the people that Wellbush saw - Vietnamese or Cambodian or Filipino - then I suggest that you ask him. Don't ask me.

    I will not be responding further to any of your posts on this topic, unless you violate a forum rule.
    Last edited by: gordonm888 on Sep 15, 2021
    So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
    SOOPOO
    SOOPOO 
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    September 15th, 2021 at 4:25:46 AM permalink
    Quote: kalc

    Quote: SOOPOO

    Can you tell me if you define these statements as racist?

    A black man is 100 times as likely to be an NFL cornerback as a white man.

    An Asian American is 10 times as likely to score over 1400 on her SAT’s than an African American.

    In Chicago, you are 8 times as likely to be killed by someone of your own race if you are African American.

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    If these statements are true, and can be verified by scientific data, then none of those statements are racist. They would simply be facts.

    However, if you believe that these facts arose out of natural conditions, then you hold racist views.
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    I’m not sure what a ‘natural condition’ is? If I asked you why virtually every starting NFL cornerback is African American, what is your educated guess?
    kalc
    kalc
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    September 15th, 2021 at 11:50:15 AM permalink
    Quote: SOOPOO

    I’m not sure what a ‘natural condition’ is? If I asked you why virtually every starting NFL cornerback is African American, what is your educated guess?

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    You presented several statements that proclaim differences between two ethnic groups. If these statements are factual, then they are not inherently racist in and of themselves. They are simply neutral statements of fact.

    However, if you believe that African Americans have certain natural attributes that make them better at playing the position of cornerback, or that Asian Americans have certain natural attributes that allow them to achieve higher scores on the SAT, or that African Americans in Chicago have certain natural attributes that cause them to commit murder against other African Americans at a higher rate, then you hold racist attitudes.

    All of the statements that you presented may well be true, but none of these outcomes were results of natural conditions (i.e. natural differences between people of different ethnicities). Something else created these differences.

    As for why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are African American, my educated guess is that it is a result of pervasive institutional racism and socioeconomic inequalities that bend the trajectory of a player's career from the time that they enter Pop Warner to the time they declare for the NFL draft. African American players are steered away from certain positions like QB, and towards positions like CB, WR and RB throughout their entire amateur careers. Even elite African American college quarterbacks, including Lamar Jackson, routinely face calls to switch to a different position prior to the NFL draft. Therefore, it is no mystery why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are black and (until very recently) nearly all NFL starting quarterbacks are white.
    Wellbush
    Wellbush
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    September 15th, 2021 at 11:59:55 AM permalink
    Quote: kalc

    Quote: SOOPOO

    I’m not sure what a ‘natural condition’ is? If I asked you why virtually every starting NFL cornerback is African American, what is your educated guess?

  • link to original post



    You presented several statements that proclaim differences between two ethnic groups. If these statements are factual, then they are not inherently racist in and of themselves. They are simply neutral statements of fact.

    However, if you believe that African Americans have certain natural attributes that make them better at playing the position of cornerback, or that Asian Americans have certain natural attributes that allow them to achieve higher scores on the SAT, or that African Americans in Chicago have certain natural attributes that cause them to commit murder against other African Americans at a higher rate, then you hold racist attitudes.

    All of the statements that you presented may well be true, but none of these outcomes were results of natural conditions (i.e. natural differences between people of different ethnicities). Something else created these differences.

    As for why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are African American, my educated guess is that it is a result of pervasive institutional racism and socioeconomic inequalities that bend the trajectory of a player's career from the time that they enter Pop Warner to the time they declare for the NFL draft. African American players are steered away from certain positions like QB, and towards positions like CB, WR and RB throughout their entire amateur careers. Even elite African American college quarterbacks, including Lamar Jackson, routinely face calls to switch to a different position prior to the NFL draft. Therefore, it is no mystery why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are black and (until very recently) nearly all NFL starting quarterbacks are white.
  • link to original post

    as far as I'm aware kalc, racism means one sees a certain nationality, or several, in a negative way. What you're suggesting is that one seeing a nationality, or several, exhibiting differential traits, to be racism. I'm not sure that's correct. I just got the below pop up first on a search:

    https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/race-discrimination/what-racism

    Racism takes many forms and can happen in many places. It includes prejudice, discrimination or hatred directed at someone because of their colour, ethnicity or national origin.
    Note: WOV considers all betting systems worthless. All persons reading my posts gamble at their own risk, as I do.
    SOOPOO
    SOOPOO 
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    September 15th, 2021 at 3:30:30 PM permalink
    Quote: kalc



    As for why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are African American, my educated guess is that it is a result of pervasive institutional racism and socioeconomic inequalities that bend the trajectory of a player's career from the time that they enter Pop Warner to the time they declare for the NFL draft.



    Do you really believe that there are NO physical differences between races? Same coincidence for Blacks dominating 100 meter dash? Do you think both Blacks and Caucasians have similar physical ability to avoid sunburn?

    Do you think the hundreds of white college cornerbacks all for some reason don’t want to be pro cornerbacks?

    Do you think height is evenly distributed amongst all races?
    MrV
    MrV
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    September 15th, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM permalink
    Quote: SOOPOO

    Do you really believe that there are NO physical differences between races?



    Ooooh, a political and social "hot button issue."

    Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder said:

    "The black is a better athlete to begin with, because he`s been bred to be that way, because of his high thighs and big thighs that go up into his back and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs, you see". . . .''This goes back all the way to the Civil War when . . . the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. . . .''
    Last edited by: MrV on Sep 15, 2021
    "What, me worry?"
    billryan
    billryan
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    September 15th, 2021 at 4:52:53 PM permalink
    Quote: MrV

    Ooooh, a political and social "hot button issue."

    Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder said:

    "The black is a better athlete to begin with, because he`s been bred to be that way, because of his high thighs and big thighs that go up into his back and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs, you see". . . .''This goes back all the way to the Civil War when . . . the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. . . .''

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    Refresh my memory. Where did Mr. Snyder get his advanced training in anthropology?
    MrV
    MrV
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    September 15th, 2021 at 4:58:19 PM permalink
    Quote: billryan

    Refresh my memory. Where did Mr. Snyder get his advanced training in anthropology?



    Huh?

    That was just his off the cuff personal opinion.

    He made his living as a bookmaker in Las Vegas; obviously he "noticed things" and formed an opinion based on what he observed.
    "What, me worry?"
    billryan
    billryan
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    September 15th, 2021 at 5:14:31 PM permalink
    Quote: MrV

    Huh?

    That was just his off the cuff personal opinion.

    He made his living as a bookmaker in Las Vegas; obviously he "noticed things" and formed an opinion based on what he observed.

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    His garbage opinion got him fired and certainly isn't worth repeating today.
    I only took two anthropology classes and they were in 1981 so things might have changed but we were taught it is almost impossible to determine a skeletons race unless the skull is intact. Take away the skull and there are no skeletal differences that would pinpoint a persons skin color.
    As I say, I'm going off forty year old information so advances may have changed that.

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