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billryan
billryan
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September 13th, 2021 at 9:56:45 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I have heard it said that poker games in Macau are different than in the U.S. because many Asian poker players "like to gamble." I don't consider that as a racist statement, it's a statement about observed culture that is relevant to achieving higher performance in a Macau poker game.

I know that many young professional poker players like to play aggressively against opponents who are over 50 years old, re-raising their pre-flop raises and betting aggressively on the post-flop and turn, because they feel that older people are risk-averse and are more likely to fold a good hand. I don't think that statement is age-ism, and if you're over 50 and are unaware of how younger pros play against older amateurs than you are going to lose more money than you should.

I don't think that Wellbush's comments about the cohort of Asian women gamblers that he studied/saw playing at his casino are either racist or misogynist: he is simply reporting what he sees.

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    I think there is a huge jump from -I think people like to gamble to saying you think they are addicted. He isn't suggesting an individual might be addicted, he thinks most Asian women are addicts.

    "...i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted."
    The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
    Dieter
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    Dieter
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    September 13th, 2021 at 10:45:47 PM permalink
    Quote: billryan


    I think there is a huge jump from -I think people like to gamble to saying you think they are addicted. He isn't suggesting an individual might be addicted, he thinks most Asian women are addicts.

    "...i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted."

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    As a gambling table typically seats no more than 12, I read "most of them" to refer to more than half of the Asian women Wellbush has observed playing table games, and not a generalization of the worldwide population of Asian women (which would be more than a billion individuals).
    May the cards fall in your favor.
    SOOPOO
    SOOPOO
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    Thanks for this post from:
    Dieter
    September 14th, 2021 at 4:16:02 AM permalink
    Quote: kalc

    Quote: Wellbush

    i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

    obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling.

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    Quote: gordonm888

    I don't think that Wellbush's comments about the cohort of Asian women gamblers that he studied/saw playing at his casino are either racist or misogynist: he is simply reporting what he sees.

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    I would have expected more from an Administrator of a forum that is supposed to espouse the values of math and logic.

    Making judgments on people solely based on their ethnic or gender identity is the definition of racism and sexism. The judgment criteria does not even need to be negative. You can say "Asians are very good at math, so that's why they win at casinos", and that would be a racist statement. By doing so, you would have taken away someone's humanity, and reduced them to a basic stereotype. Asians are no longer human beings with individual agency, but merely expressions of their assigned social group.

    Such a statement would also reveal an incredible degree of laziness and/or ignorance. People of Asian descent make up around 60% of the world's population, and are made up of groups with cultures that are as diverse as those in any other continent in the world. Yet, in this thread, certain qualities are imbued onto all Asians based on a few casual observations of a few individuals in casinos in Perth, Las Vegas, and Macau. Asians in Perth (and Australia in general) are comprised of mainly of Chinese immigrants who arrived during the gold rush of the 1850-60's, Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees from the 1970's, working class and professional migrants from the Philippines and India since the 1970's, middle class economic migrants from Hong Kong and Taiwan from the 1980-90's, and middle class economic and educational migrants from mainland China since 2000. Which of these specific groups whose women does Wellbush believe are addicted to gambling? Is gambling in the culture of all of these groups, or just some?

    Macau is the only place in China where gambling is legal, and its visitors are mainly middle class and upper class individuals from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The Chinese players in the high stakes poker games in Macau are tremendously wealthy, or are offspring of the tremendously wealthy. The cutthroat capitalism in China of the past 30+ years have created a class of the ultra-rich. The ones who survived did so because of their ruthless nature and psychopathic obsession to win. Money means nothing to those people, except as a means to keep score. Does the top 0.1% of Chinese society reflect the values of all Chinese, and all Asian poker players? Your statement seems to think so.

    Macau received nearly 28 million visitors from mainland China in 2019. China's population was 1.433 billion in 2019. What cultural observations did you make on the 1.405 billion Chinese people who did not visit Macau in 2019? Do you think that all of those people also like to be loose and splashy at a poker table, except that they just gamble illegally outside of Macau, because they can't afford to or don't want to go through the hassle of getting a permit to visit Macau? This is such an easy case of selection bias to spot; yet multiple people in this thread seem to be falling for it.

    Finally, your comparison of a poker pro using heuristics to categorize opponents is not even valid. Poker is game of imperfect information, but within a few rounds, it is possible to make highly accurate observations on an opponent's play style, especially when the opponent is veering widely from optimal play. The observations don't even need to be that precise. If you think that someone's range is not well constructed, and they are folding just 3% too much, a solver will tell you to bluff everything, because every bluff is now profitable. Likewise, if someone is calling just 3% too much, then a solver will tell you to never bluff, widen your value range, and size up your value bets. Maximally exploiting your opponent's weaknesses is simply the optimal strategy.

    At a poker table, everyone agrees to the rules of the game when they sit down. Your have an adversarial relationship with your opponents, and it is fine to use heuristics to maximize profits. When you are just walking past someone on the street, they're not asking to be judged.
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    Can you tell me if you define these statements as racist?

    A black man is 100 times as likely to be an NFL cornerback as a white man.

    An Asian American is 10 times as likely to score over 1400 on her SATís than an African American.

    In Chicago, you are 8 times as likely to be killed by someone of your own race if you are African American.
    AxelWolf
    AxelWolf
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    September 14th, 2021 at 4:18:27 AM permalink
    I have known a fair amount of Asia women gamblers and I'm sorry to say, a very high percentage of them seem to be problem gamblers.
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    Wellbush
    Wellbush
    Joined: Mar 23, 2021
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    September 14th, 2021 at 4:40:31 AM permalink
    Quote: AxelWolf

    I have known a fair amount of Asia women gamblers and I'm sorry to say, a very high percentage of them seem to be problem gamblers.

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    Exactly, SOOPOO and axel. I was clearly talking about a certain % of Asian women I see at casinos, not Asian women in general. It might say something about the posters who've reacted the way they have, though?

    My ex-wife is Vietnamese who would never go near a casino. I had an ex Vietnamese girlfriend, the same. My 3 kids are half Vietnamese and half caucasian Australian. My current gf is a Filipina. And, it would be no surprise that I love Asian women.

    Now, can those who immediately jump up and point the finger, twisting and projection all of the universe from anything remotely said about a race, now stand up and think they're right?
    All persons reading my posts gamble at their own risk, as I do. I don't ordinarily dispute math. I may dispute math I don't understand, or if I think it's faulty. I am not a conspiracy theorist.
    Dieter
    Administrator
    Dieter
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    September 14th, 2021 at 5:13:54 AM permalink
    Quote: Wellbush


    My ex-wife is Vietnamese who would never go near a casino. I had an ex Vietnamese girlfriend, the same. My 3 kids are half Vietnamese and half caucasian Australian. My current gf is a Filipina. And, it would be no surprise that I love Asian women.

    Now, can those who immediately jump up and point the finger, twisting and projection all of the universe from anything remotely said about a race, now stand up and think they're right?

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    Taunting is just a half step from trolling, Wellbush.
    You did open the door to have your intent questioned when you made a comment that mentioned race.
    May the cards fall in your favor.
    AxelWolf
    AxelWolf
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    September 14th, 2021 at 6:32:01 AM permalink
    Quote: Wellbush

    Quote: AxelWolf

    I have known a fair amount of Asia women gamblers and I'm sorry to say, a very high percentage of them seem to be problem gamblers.

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    Exactly, SOOPOO and axel. I was clearly talking about a certain % of Asian women I see at casinos, not Asian women in general. It might say something about the posters who've reacted the way they have, though?

    My ex-wife is Vietnamese who would never go near a casino. I had an ex Vietnamese girlfriend, the same. My 3 kids are half Vietnamese and half caucasian Australian. My current gf is a Filipina. And, it would be no surprise that I love Asian women.

    Now, can those who immediately jump up and point the finger, twisting and projection all of the universe from anything remotely said about a race, now stand up and think they're right?
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    Either way, it's still somewhat insulting to say those things, even what I said. What you said was a bit over the top. 🤷‍♂️ it's when someone doesn't know that or understand how it could be offensive... that's the problem. Defending yourself is just making it worse. A simple explanation that you used bad judgment when posting that stuff may have sufficed. Or just say you don't care. Claiming it's ok or trying to say it's no big deal isn't going to work out well.

    I suspect no one was truly offended, It was more about the fact that some people don't like or respect you, therefore, why not call you out. But who knows?
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    Mission146
    Mission146
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    September 14th, 2021 at 6:38:47 AM permalink
    Quote: AxelWolf

    Either way, it's still somewhat insulting to say those things, even what I said. What you said was a bit over the top. 🤷‍♂️ it's when someone doesn't know that or understand how it could be offensive... that's the problem. Defending yourself is just making it worse. A simple explanation that you used bad judgment when posting that stuff may have sufficed. Or just say you don't care. Claiming it's ok or trying to say it's no big deal isn't going to work out well.

    I suspect no one was truly offended, It was more about the fact that some people don't like or respect you, therefore, why not call you out. But who knows?

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    Considering he got banned for Trolling, an insult or Hate Speech less than three weeks ago (the Admin couldn't decide which) might also have an impact on how people might perceive his statements. That said, I didn't see anything specifically wrong with his comments most recently. I do think it's funny that someone perceived them as possibloy being racist and misogynistic (referring to the post, not to Wellbush) and Wellbush wanted that person banned for Personal Insult.

    How about everyone just drop it?
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    Wellbush
    Wellbush
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    September 14th, 2021 at 7:55:37 AM permalink
    Quote: Dieter

    Taunting is just a half step from trolling, Wellbush.
    You did open the door to have your intent questioned when you made a comment that mentioned race.

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    I wasn't taunting. I was just describing the situation. I have no control over how various posters may react to what I experienced. And as far as I'm concerned, I have nothing to apologise for or back down from.

    I also object to 146 bringing up that I have a record for this sort of thing, whatever this sort of thing is? There's a difference between deliberately stirring up trouble, and trouble being stirred up by people's reactions to what someone posts.
    All persons reading my posts gamble at their own risk, as I do. I don't ordinarily dispute math. I may dispute math I don't understand, or if I think it's faulty. I am not a conspiracy theorist.
    Marcusclark66
    Marcusclark66
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    September 14th, 2021 at 8:07:40 AM permalink
    Asians gamble, so what? So do whites, blacks, Latinos and Europeans, etc. I highly doubt that the majority of all Asians do gamble, really doubt that one.

    All kinds of people from every nationality engage in addictive behavior with various vices of all kinds.

    Funny how Asians usually do get 'singled out' at most casinos for being part of a majority that in numbers would surpass all other racial groups, etc.

    IMO it makes for spicy talk that allows the perpetrator to appear educated on the subject, LOL.
    Marcus Clark. Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66. *Professional Casino Security Expert. *Certified EMT *Certified Company Firearms Instructor. *Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications. *Domestic UrbanTactical Combat Casualty Expert. *Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess. *Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club. *Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members. *Certified Casino Property Entry & Exit Point Analyzer *Baccarat Winning Session Record: 12 out of 12 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session. Baccarat Losing Session Record: 2 Losing Sessions.

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