Miscellaneous Discussion Thread II
The pictures of people doing meth after a couple years or so. Not good.
Hallucinogenics don't fit so neatly into the box for abusive drugs. They may be legal, more and more. Hard to say.
Go forward 100 years, and gangs flourish because of the sale of illegal drugs and murders top 2,000
Just a strange coincidence.
Quote: billryanIn NY State in 1900, heroin, pot and cocaine were legal and available at most pharmacies. Opium dens operated openly in Lower Manhattan, and there were less than 200 murders a year.
Go forward 100 years, and gangs flourish because of the sale of illegal drugs and murders top 2,000
Just a strange coincidence.
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There are a lot more people now, but mostly that's correct you did not have people who were addicted stealing and committing crimes to get their next fix. It was available everywhere and there were a ton of addicted people. Little children were addicted to cough syrup as was Grandma, who was also addicted to patent medicine that was full of opiates.
Quote: rxwineCome to think of it, as far as crime, I'd much rather the government sell the hard drugs, as long as someone proves they're already a hard core addict. It might be possible to do that actually. That would steal away customers from the cartels and all the money they make. The government shouldn't be making new addicts though.
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Voluntary relocation camps. Provide free drugs within the reservation and free transportation to it. Let them start their own communities, far from law-abiding citizens. We destroy billions of dollars worth of illicit drugs each year. Let's repurpose them.
Quote: billryanQuote: rxwineCome to think of it, as far as crime, I'd much rather the government sell the hard drugs, as long as someone proves they're already a hard core addict. It might be possible to do that actually. That would steal away customers from the cartels and all the money they make. The government shouldn't be making new addicts though.
link to original post
Voluntary relocation camps. Provide free drugs within the reservation and free transportation to it. Let them start their own communities, far from law-abiding citizens. We destroy billions of dollars worth of illicit drugs each year. Let's repurpose them.
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I wish some solution was ideal, but usually they come with new complications. If dad or mom or both addicted. Do we want them dragging off their unaddicted kids to these places? If not who takes care of them. Court battles, etc.,
when a great number of people want something the politicians don't want to go up against it - and risk getting voted out of office
that is what has happened with alcohol, marijuana and gambling
but to the best of my knowledge there aren't great numbers of people lobbying to make hallucinogenic drugs legal
that is what makes this puzzling to me
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Quote: rxwineQuote: billryanQuote: rxwineCome to think of it, as far as crime, I'd much rather the government sell the hard drugs, as long as someone proves they're already a hard core addict. It might be possible to do that actually. That would steal away customers from the cartels and all the money they make. The government shouldn't be making new addicts though.
link to original post
Voluntary relocation camps. Provide free drugs within the reservation and free transportation to it. Let them start their own communities, far from law-abiding citizens. We destroy billions of dollars worth of illicit drugs each year. Let's repurpose them.
link to original post
I wish some solution was ideal, but usually they come with new complications. If dad or mom or both addicted. Do we want them dragging off their unaddicted kids to these places? If not who takes care of them. Court battles, etc.,
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There is no perfect solution but if the government opened camps and 50,000 homeless addicts were removed from society and given free drugs and food, it would be a net gain, and make it easier to deal with the ones who remain.
Quote: rxwineQuote: billryanQuote: rxwineCome to think of it, as far as crime, I'd much rather the government sell the hard drugs, as long as someone proves they're already a hard core addict. It might be possible to do that actually. That would steal away customers from the cartels and all the money they make. The government shouldn't be making new addicts though.
link to original post
Voluntary relocation camps. Provide free drugs within the reservation and free transportation to it. Let them start their own communities, far from law-abiding citizens. We destroy billions of dollars worth of illicit drugs each year. Let's repurpose them.
link to original post
I wish some solution was ideal, but usually they come with new complications. If dad or mom or both addicted. Do we want them dragging off their unaddicted kids to these places? If not who takes care of them. Court battles, etc.,
link to original post
There is no perfect solution but if the government opened camps and 50,000 homeless addicts were removed from society and given free drugs and food, it would be a net gain, and make it easier to deal with the ones who remain.
Quote: billryan
There is no perfect solution but if the government opened camps and 50,000 homeless addicts were removed from society and given free drugs and food, it would be a net gain, and make it easier to deal with the ones who remain.
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This would never work because it would become a prison because obviously these people could not be left to wander around on their own. And making it a prison would rob them of their constitutional rights.
Good value, too, but they jacked the price up after I bought mine.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BPM2V752?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
Quote: billryanIn NY State in 1900, heroin, pot and cocaine were legal and available at most pharmacies. Opium dens operated openly in Lower Manhattan, and there were less than 200 murders a year.
from the article:
"in 1924, the Deputy Commissioner of the New York Police (NYC) reported that 94% of all crimes were being committed by heroin addicts"
https://www.narconon.org/drug-information/heroin-history-1900s.html
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Quote: TigerWu
Now you hardly ever hear '60s music in movies, and the oldies stations have been gone for years.
Oldies stations are still here, at least as much as any music radio is here. It's just now they play music from the '80s and '90s. When I was in college in the '80s, the oldies stations played music from the '50s and it seemed super old. The #1 hit on the radio in my freshman dorm was Dire Straits "Money for Nothing" and oldies was Elvis which seemed like ancient history. I was really into the Beatles and that was old (20 years) but not on the oldies stations so much.
Now, 30 years ago is the early '90s and the oldies stations are playing Nirvana. In my mind it's still current but it's old people music.
Quote: rxwineI kind of doubt drugs that make people dysfunctional rather quickly will gain legality. Alcohol and marijuana can certainly make some people dysfunctional over time. But it's not an automatic destination nor does it usually occur quickly.
The pictures of people doing meth after a couple years or so. Not good.
Hallucinogenics don't fit so neatly into the box for abusive drugs. They may be legal, more and more. Hard to say.
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I knew a very beautiful girl in Las Vegas that was a recovering meth addict. I was very surprised how pretty she was considering her background.
Now he claims he'd done magic mushrooms.
"When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving low"
Quote: EvenBobQuote: billryan
There is no perfect solution but if the government opened camps and 50,000 homeless addicts were removed from society and given free drugs and food, it would be a net gain, and make it easier to deal with the ones who remain.
link to original post
This would never work because it would become a prison because obviously these people could not be left to wander around on their own. And making it a prison would rob them of their constitutional rights.
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Why? Are you saying the people would rather be living on the streets,robbing people to support their habit? The people are free to go, but then they don't get their daily fix. Or drum circle.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineI kind of doubt drugs that make people dysfunctional rather quickly will gain legality. Alcohol and marijuana can certainly make some people dysfunctional over time. But it's not an automatic destination nor does it usually occur quickly.
The pictures of people doing meth after a couple years or so. Not good.
Hallucinogenics don't fit so neatly into the box for abusive drugs. They may be legal, more and more. Hard to say.
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I knew a very beautiful girl in Las Vegas that was a recovering meth addict. I was very surprised how pretty she was considering her background.
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There are a bunch of fat meth addicts in Bisbee. I didn't think that was possible.
Quote: billryan
Why? Are you saying the people would rather be living on the streets,robbing people to support their habit? The people are free to go, but then they don't get their daily fix. Or drum circle.
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Those kind of solutions never work because you're not dealing with normal people. Addicts do not operate like everybody else and you put them all in one place and give them their fix for free and you're going to have more problems than you can possibly deal with. It will end up being a prison because that's the only solution. Drug addicts want it all, they want their drugs but they also want to be able to do what they want to do and come and go like everybody else. That's the rub. That's why they live on the street because they almost have that, freedom and drugs at the same time. They had that in China before Mao took over. We had that in the United States until Congress stopped it. In both instances it was nothing but a gigantic mess and had to be gotten rid of.
They're of no use to society, get rid of them...KER-FLUSH...
Works for me.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: billryan
Why? Are you saying the people would rather be living on the streets,robbing people to support their habit? The people are free to go, but then they don't get their daily fix. Or drum circle.
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Those kind of solutions never work because you're not dealing with normal people. Addicts do not operate like everybody else and you put them all in one place and give them their fix for free and you're going to have more problems than you can possibly deal with. It will end up being a prison because that's the only solution. Drug addicts want it all, they want their drugs but they also want to be able to do what they want to do and come and go like everybody else. That's the rub. That's why they live on the street because they almost have that, freedom and drugs at the same time. They had that in China before Mao took over. We had that in the United States until Congress stopped it. In both instances it was nothing but a gigantic mess and had to be gotten rid of.
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I met a guy recently who is a counselor to drug addicts and he says they all have one thing in common, anybody with an addiction. They all want more more more. More drugs, more free food, more free housing, more drug counseling, whatever it is they want more of it and it will never be enough. That's the basis of the addiction.
Quote: rxwineCome to think of it, as far as crime, I'd much rather the government sell the hard drugs, as long as someone proves they're already a hard core addict. It might be possible to do that actually. That would steal away customers from the cartels and all the money they make. The government shouldn't be making new addicts though.
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I would not want government selling it or making it. Just regulate it like we do booze and smokes.
A big issue in the drug culture is purity and quality. A meth user does not know if the Sky Blue she is buying is the real thing or some kid dumping blue color into low grade stuff. A cocaine user does not know how many times the product has been cut and with what. An interesting part of this is addiction goes way up when quality goes way up. Saw it on a piece on meth. When quality went up IIRC due to Mexican superlabs addiction issues went way up. When the good stuff was off the street it went back down.
In the USA we might as well face the fact that we have a drug culture always have and always will. I for one am at the point of saying if we are going to have it lets at least have pure product. We could still ban it to people on welfare, probation, parole, etc and for jobs where it makes sense. This will further the culture divide but what else is new?
no, the hard stuff - people freak out on that s*** and become violent
they're still going to need money to buy it - it's wouldn't be free - how will they get the money to support an addiction - think crime - think violence
and please don't say the Government should provide it for free
it's not proper for a Government to say to it's citizens:
"Go Ahead - Blow Your Mind - We Don't Care"
maybe we don't currently have a good solution but we have to be better than that
.
Quote: lilredrooster.
no, the hard stuff - people freak out on that s*** and become violent
they're still going to need money to buy it - it's wouldn't be free - how will they get the money to support an addiction - think crime - think violence
and please don't say the Government should provide it for free
it's not proper for a Government to say to it's citizens:
"Go Ahead - Blow Your Mind - We Don't Care"
maybe we don't currently have a good solution but we have to be better than that
.
link to original post
If the government gives dope to one person, and that prevents 50 citizens from being a crime victim, is that a good trade-off?
How many victims will fall victim to a junkie with a $100 dollar-a-day habit? The government should exist for the people, not the individual.
Quote: billryanQuote: lilredrooster.
no, the hard stuff - people freak out on that s*** and become violent
they're still going to need money to buy it - it's wouldn't be free - how will they get the money to support an addiction - think crime - think violence
and please don't say the Government should provide it for free
it's not proper for a Government to say to it's citizens:
"Go Ahead - Blow Your Mind - We Don't Care"
maybe we don't currently have a good solution but we have to be better than that
.
link to original post
If the government gives dope to one person, and that prevents 50 citizens from being a crime victim, is that a good trade-off?
How many victims will fall victim to a junkie with a $100 dollar-a-day habit? The government should exist for the people, not the individual.
link to original post
I'm not going to do the necessary work to challenge your claim
but here's the thing:
can you imagine a politician getting up on his soapbox and saying that under his Administration he's going to give people free heroin_______?
that's just never ever going to happen
so debating the merits of such an idea - without any possibility of it happening - is not a way I want to spend my time
.
Quote: billryan
If the government gives dope to one person, and that prevents 50 citizens from being a crime victim, is that a good trade-off?
How many victims will fall victim to a junkie with a $100 dollar-a-day habit? The government should exist for the people, not the individual.
link to original post
It doesn't work and it will never work. The reason you think it will is you do not understand how addicts think. You act like they are normal people with a small problem that can be overcome with some drugs. They are not normal people and they have a huge problem and no amount of drugs will overcome it. If you give it to them free they'll just keep taking it in larger amounts till they die. Or become a 100% burden to society. The only way they will ever be able to treat drug addiction is to come up with a drug that takes their desire for addictive drugs away and we're coming up on that. It's in the near future.
Quote: lilredrooster.
no, the hard stuff - people freak out on that s*** and become violent
they're still going to need money to buy it - it's wouldn't be free - how will they get the money to support an addiction - think crime - think violence
We have the same issue with other things already. The good part would be it would hopefully put the local dealers out of business. I would prefer that a person with bad pain be able to buy something at the pharmacy than go on the street. Addicts will be addicts we will always have the problem.
Quote: AZDuffman
We have the same issue with other things already. The good part would be it would hopefully put the local dealers out of business. I would prefer that a person with bad pain be able to buy something at the pharmacy than go on the street. Addicts will be addicts we will always have the problem.
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There are so many addictions. My own wife is an addict, she's addicted to candy and if she's in a casino she's addicted to the slots. Lucky for her if she doesn't go to the casino and doesn't have candy in the house it's not a problem. I knew a guy that was addicted to candy years ago, he was an older guy and a couple times a week after dinner and he would drive his car to the grocery store with some excuse and buy a couple pounds of candy and sit in the parking lot and eat it in his car while he was crying. Addictions are not nice things no matter what it is you're addicted to.
Quote: lilredroosterQuote: billryanQuote: lilredrooster.
no, the hard stuff - people freak out on that s*** and become violent
they're still going to need money to buy it - it's wouldn't be free - how will they get the money to support an addiction - think crime - think violence
and please don't say the Government should provide it for free
it's not proper for a Government to say to it's citizens:
"Go Ahead - Blow Your Mind - We Don't Care"
maybe we don't currently have a good solution but we have to be better than that
.
link to original post
If the government gives dope to one person, and that prevents 50 citizens from being a crime victim, is that a good trade-off?
How many victims will fall victim to a junkie with a $100 dollar-a-day habit? The government should exist for the people, not the individual.
link to original post
I'm not going to do the necessary work to challenge your claim
but here's the thing:
can you imagine a politician getting up on his soapbox and saying that under his Administration he's going to give people free heroin_______?
that's just never ever going to happen
so debating the merits of such an idea - without any possibility of it happening - is not a way I want to spend my time
.
link to original post
Imagine a politician in 1969 saying they were for gay marriage and legal marijuana. Around 1972, there was some sort of referendum in Florida for some gay rights, and the national news broke into network broadcast to announce it was defeated. Heck, a politician in the South would have been scorned for suggesting inter-racial marriage was okay. Times change, as does society.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: AZDuffman
We have the same issue with other things already. The good part would be it would hopefully put the local dealers out of business. I would prefer that a person with bad pain be able to buy something at the pharmacy than go on the street. Addicts will be addicts we will always have the problem.
link to original post
There are so many addictions. My own wife is an addict, she's addicted to candy and if she's in a casino she's addicted to the slots. Lucky for her if she doesn't go to the casino and doesn't have candy in the house it's not a problem. I knew a guy that was addicted to candy years ago, he was an older guy and a couple times a week after dinner and he would drive his car to the grocery store with some excuse and buy a couple pounds of candy and sit in the parking lot and eat it in his car while he was crying. Addictions are not nice things no matter what it is you're addicted to.
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Some people just have addictive personalities. I saw some program once talked about a girl and her boyfriend. Her father said "she is addicted to drugs and he us addicted to her." It is why I say truly addictive thins are fer and it is more the person. I have met people addicted to diet Coke, and others I have not met were famous for it. Better diet Coke than Marlboros, but an addiction.
Quote: AZDuffman
Some people just have addictive personalities. I saw some program once talked about a girl and her boyfriend. Her father said "she is addicted to drugs and he us addicted to her." It is why I say truly addictive thins are fer and it is more the person. I have met people addicted to diet Coke, and others I have not met were famous for it. Better diet Coke than Marlboros, but an addiction.
I think the only thing I have ever been addicted to was Ambien. If I didn't take one at night I would not sleep at all. I would literally go many days without sleeping if I was out of Ambien. The problem became that I got mentally addicted to it so no matter how tired, or intoxicated, I was I would take one just to make sure I went to sleep. Obviously Ambien has some interesting side effects when one is intoxicated.
Quote: DRich
I think the only thing I have ever been addicted to was Ambien.
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Are you blocking your addiction to tater tots out of your mind? Denial is always the first sign of addiction..
Quote: EvenBobQuote: DRich
I think the only thing I have ever been addicted to was Ambien.
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Are you blocking your addiction to tater tots out of your mind? Denial is always the first sign of addiction..
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There is a difference between passion and addiction
Good or the AP's here to, now they have convenient cheap flights to another market that usually has good offers.
Quote: DRich
There is a difference between passion and addiction
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That's what all Tater Tot addicts say..
Quote: EvenBobQuote: AZDuffman
We have the same issue with other things already. The good part would be it would hopefully put the local dealers out of business. I would prefer that a person with bad pain be able to buy something at the pharmacy than go on the street. Addicts will be addicts we will always have the problem.
link to original post
There are so many addictions. My own wife is an addict, she's addicted to candy and if she's in a casino she's addicted to the slots. Lucky for her if she doesn't go to the casino and doesn't have candy in the house it's not a problem. I knew a guy that was addicted to candy years ago, he was an older guy and a couple times a week after dinner and he would drive his car to the grocery store with some excuse and buy a couple pounds of candy and sit in the parking lot and eat it in his car while he was crying. Addictions are not nice things no matter what it is you're addicted to.
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Oh, I’d get more useful things done if I were addicted to a few things i like to put off to the last minute because I don’t enjoy doing them.
Quote: DRich
I think the only thing I have ever been addicted to was Ambien. If I didn't take one at night I would not sleep at all.
what do you use now for a sleep aid if anything_______?
I alternate between 2 over the counter sleep aids - melatonin and diphenhydramine in ZZZQuil
not every night - just about 2 nights per week - it's so much better if I have a deep sleep instead of tossing and turning
.
Quote: lilredrooster
what do you use now for a sleep aid if anything_______?
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My sleep aid is breathing. Through the nose for a long count of four, hold it for a count of seven, breathe out through your mouth for a count of eight. Do this four or five times and then start breathing maybe a little more deeply than normal and I never remember if it works because I fall asleep almost immediately. There's a long scientific reason for this, something about getting oxygen into your bloodstream by holding your breath. I don't care how it works all I know is it works like a charm. If it doesn't work on the first try, start doing it again with no goal of stopping and you will fall asleep. It's best to be relaxed first and be ready for sleep, that will help a lot.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: billryan
If the government gives dope to one person, and that prevents 50 citizens from being a crime victim, is that a good trade-off?
How many victims will fall victim to a junkie with a $100 dollar-a-day habit? The government should exist for the people, not the individual.
link to original post
It doesn't work and it will never work. The reason you think it will is you do not understand how addicts think. You act like they are normal people with a small problem that can be overcome with some drugs. They are not normal people and they have a huge problem and no amount of drugs will overcome it. If you give it to them free they'll just keep taking it in larger amounts till they die. Or become a 100% burden to society. The only way they will ever be able to treat drug addiction is to come up with a drug that takes their desire for addictive drugs away and we're coming up on that. It's in the near future.
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I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
Quote: Dieter
I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
link to original post
Maybe, but it wasn't having a huge number of drug addicts live in one place like a community where they had access to free drugs as much as they wanted. That will never work. Drug addicts have many underlying issues, that's why they're drug addicts. They are manic depressive, suicidal, suffer from chronic depression, or just plain crazy, the drug for them is the treatment for their problem, it's not there core problem. Just giving them the treatment for free and ignoring everything else is a recipe for disaster. We used to put these people in Mental Hospitals we don't do that anymore and that's part of the problem.
Quote: lilredroosterQuote: DRich
I think the only thing I have ever been addicted to was Ambien. If I didn't take one at night I would not sleep at all.
what do you use now for a sleep aid if anything_______?
I alternate between 2 over the counter sleep aids - melatonin and diphenhydramine in ZZZQuil
not every night - just about 2 nights per week - it's so much better if I have a deep sleep instead of tossing and turning
.
link to original post
After about 15 years of daily Ambien I was able to get off it. I now take 75mg of diphenhydramine nightly.
I take zero prescriptions or street drugs, and no pot.Quote: DRichQuote: lilredroosterQuote: DRich
I think the only thing I have ever been addicted to was Ambien. If I didn't take one at night I would not sleep at all.
what do you use now for a sleep aid if anything_______?
I alternate between 2 over the counter sleep aids - melatonin and diphenhydramine in ZZZQuil
not every night - just about 2 nights per week - it's so much better if I have a deep sleep instead of tossing and turning
.
link to original post
After about 15 years of daily Ambien I was able to get off it. I now take 75mg of diphenhydramine nightly.
link to original post
Quote: Dieter
I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
I googled that and found zip
if it's true - they've successfully managed to hide the program from google - not an easy task
.
Quote: lilredroosterQuote: Dieter
I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
I googled that and found zip
if it's true - they've successfully managed to hide the program from google - not an easy task
.
link to original post
Fair.
I had seen a documentary maybe 20 years ago where one of the patients was being issued "cocaine reefers" - common cigarettes laced with cocaine. I believe he had to go to the dispensary daily. I don't recall any of the other details.
Quote: lilredroosterQuote: Dieter
I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
I googled that and found zip
if it's true - they've successfully managed to hide the program from google - not an easy task
.
link to original post
Here's an abtract of a 1988 paper on how the British had dealt with their heroin problem.
Until the 1970s, British doctors prescribed heroin to addicts.
Quote: ChesterDogQuote: lilredroosterQuote: Dieter
I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
I googled that and found zip
if it's true - they've successfully managed to hide the program from google - not an easy task
.
link to original post
Here's an abtract of a 1988 paper on how the British had dealt with their heroin problem.
Until the 1970s, British doctors prescribed heroin to addicts.
link to original post
It could well be that the patient was the last person who still had a prescription from the "olden days", and every time he tried a different treatment, it didn't work... so back to what works.
I really wish I could remember the details.
Enjoy the day!
Quote: ChesterDogQuote: lilredroosterQuote: Dieter
I believe I heard about a very successful addiction program in the UK that was - essentially - the government giving out hard drugs, in certain cases.
I googled that and found zip
if it's true - they've successfully managed to hide the program from google - not an easy task
.
link to original post
Here's an abtract of a 1988 paper on how the British had dealt with their heroin problem.
Until the 1970s, British doctors prescribed heroin to addicts.
link to original post
okay - it looks like Dieter was correct - my apologies for questioning the validity of his post
but I read the abstract - and it indicates that the program was abolished probably (my opinion) because it was a failure
from the article:
"The present era, commencing in the 1970s saw a shift to a treatment-oriented approach in which doctors began prescribing oral methadone rather than injectable heroin and treatment emphasized a short, rapid reduction in drug use rather than maintenance.
Increasing drug use in the 1980s prompted additional policy changes that placed much less emphasis on the medical profession as a source of official control, focusing instead on increased drug law enforcement, detoxification services, and voluntary self-help and rehabilitation programs."
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