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100xOdds
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
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July 15th, 2015 at 5:54:17 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

This seems like a drastic change for the purpose of squeezing some WSOP players.



wsop is over for now.
final 9 have been determined.

heard #1 stack has 60M chips. #2 stack has 30M.
#1 doesn't even need to show up day1 of the final table and he's virtually guaranteed 3rd place.

and what does wsop have to do w/the wynn?
how many wsop players are staying at the wynn??
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Wizard
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Wizard 
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July 15th, 2015 at 7:03:18 PM permalink
Quote: RS

The odds bet does not change the house edge.



Please explain. Consider two players:

Adam: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 2x odds.

Eve: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 3-4-5x odds.

What is the overall house edge of each player?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
mustangsally
mustangsally
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July 15th, 2015 at 8:18:20 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Adam: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 2x odds.

Eve: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 3-4-5x odds.

What is the overall house edge of each player?

i say this is a really bad (poor) example because it leads directly to the comment
"well, both players have the same expected loss
and that makes the odds bet just optional, no difference"


and that should also point out they both have way different average bets
one more than the other
2.47 units vs 3.78


let us try to balance that out and see

i say Eve (Adam is her hubby too)
bets $25 (green is good) with 345X odds for an average bet of $94.44

Adam says, "i can get close to that to make you happier"
i make $38 flat bets with FULL 2X odds
(drive them dealers nutty... 38with95 odds for 6&8)
average bet now at $93.94

50cents to the boys!

total action over 500 weekend bets
Adam: $46,972.22
Eve: $47,222.22
that looks much much better (Steen agrees too)
Eve still bets more

now who has a larger average loss?
and percentage wise?

of course, it is not that big of an actual (?) $ difference over a weekend of play
at $92
comps to the rescue

thank you for sharing
Sally
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Ahigh
Ahigh
Joined: May 19, 2010
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July 15th, 2015 at 8:22:39 PM permalink
I went and asked questions. Several things are different.

Right now they are operating four tables at $10 and up, and one table at $100 and up in the high limit room. There are two tables in the high limit rooms, one in the back area. They may have one reserved high limit table open besides the $100 table.

$100 and up is 345x, and $5000 max line.
$10 game allows $100 odds on $30 pass line when point is six or eight

These are some strange changes, really. I think that Jerry's Nugget also let's you bet $10 odds on a $3 pass. But $100 on a $30 is just really weird to me.

I did talk to the pit crew, and I got some feedback from them about what their thoughts were.

But it's clear it's not to prevent exposure. Dealers on hand had speculation relating to what it might be about, but it seemed that nobody really knew.

There was lamenting that they felt that business was being run off from being unhappy about being told about the odds situation.

I jabbed at them a couple of times, listing the other casinos that offer double odds, and there was laughter. But overall, the pit did not seem happy about the changes.

The other differences is that they are going to open up another four craps tables in an area under construction, so there will be 8 on main floor and either one or two in high limit.

There are actually quite a few changes happening at the Wynn right now. The only thing that I could think of that might make sense would be if they wanted to take craps players in the $10 to $50 limit and raise prices for them a bit to get the same amount of action.

I played no odds and just stacked up chips and made 50% profit from my buy-in. I think I hit a $25 ten, and everything else was line, come, or place 6/8.
Wizard
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Wizard 
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July 15th, 2015 at 8:33:22 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

i say this is a really bad (poor) example because it leads directly to the comment
"well, both players have the same expected loss
and that makes the odds bet just optional, no difference"



I didn't ask for the expected loss but the overall house edge. Assuming equal pass bets, I agree the expected loss is equal. However, if the goal is to minimize expected loss -- put your money in the change machine.

For the recreational player, gambling is about buying entertainment. Let's assume that Adam and Eve each make $5 pass bets. I'm sure we can agree their expected loss will be the same. But which player will get getting more money on the table and thus getting more entertainment?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
mustangsally
mustangsally
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July 15th, 2015 at 8:51:03 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I didn't ask for the expected loss but the overall house edge.

i knew you would come back with that
of course the combined house edge will be lower
exactly what you want to hear
but that is over a larger average bet

that is how the ev stays the same as most know
Quote: Wizard

Assuming equal pass bets, I agree the expected loss is equal.

but you must agree that the 345x player has the lower combined house edge

so what is your conclusion from that?

Quote: Wizard

But which player will get getting more money on the table and thus getting more entertainment?

more money on the table = more entertainment?
we all can vote on that

how about this one right back

if both players have a loss from their session of play, who has the larger (average) loss?
how much (or what kind of) entertainment does that produce?

or is it priceless?
I Heart Vi Hart
HornHighYo11
HornHighYo11
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July 15th, 2015 at 9:25:30 PM permalink
AHigh.

Thanks for asking those questions. This is one thread that deeply troubles me.
I thought not playing blackjack allowed me avoiding all that "6:5" nonsense; now I got THIS "2X crap" to worry about, possibly lurking in the shadows at my favorite places to play on the strip. Never played at the Wynn but I am worried about the spread down the way.
This is a more serious move to target a larger pool of players than the "Double 2&12 in the Field" business, is it not?
Please keep this thread active with updates.

Thanks
Eric721
Eric721
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July 15th, 2015 at 11:01:39 PM permalink
Quote: howesmr

Just checked in at the Wynn to meet up with a craps friend and discovered they just changed the Craps Odds to 2x. I wasn't thrilled with the 3/4/5 but that is the price of playing with the big boys. For full odds and double Come with full odds bettor this could be expensive. Raises the edge from .374 to .572. If my math is right and it probably isn't that increases the cost of a $100 average bettor from $15.71/hr to $24.02/hr.

Looks like this is my last visit unless they fix it.



You know, this could actually be a good thing.

I would advise against playing odds. They are true odds bets, meaning they have no impact on your bottom line. What they do is increase variance, which (as a general rule) does nothing but shortens your session at the tables. That whole "lost/won $400 in 10 minutes" thing is what odds brings to the table.

All you odds players, have you ever stopped to wonder why the casino offers true odds bets? Hint: It isn't because they're forced to.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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July 16th, 2015 at 12:02:41 AM permalink
Quote: Eric721

You know, this could actually be a good thing.

I would advise against playing odds. They are true odds bets, meaning they have no impact on your bottom line. What they do is increase variance, which (as a general rule) does nothing but shortens your session at the tables. That whole "lost/won $400 in 10 minutes" thing is what odds brings to the table.

All you odds players, have you ever stopped to wonder why the casino offers true odds bets? Hint: It isn't because they're forced to.



The Wynn is just making a ton of changes. Maybe they are just doing this to get people talking about what they are doing.

There were black curtains and "under construction" all over the place there.

Something is going on...
Boz
Boz
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July 16th, 2015 at 3:56:32 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

The Wynn is just making a ton of changes. Maybe they are just doing this to get people talking about what they are doing.

There were black curtains and "under construction" all over the place there.

Something is going on...




Maybe Steve found out "Popeye" isn't worth what he paid for it.

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