Goethe
Goethe
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November 9th, 2015 at 6:29:49 AM permalink
I've just seen Mr Shackleford interviewed as part of the Australian Broadcasing Corp's documentary "Ka-Ching: Pokie Nation", an investigation into the spread of the "pokies" across Oz. In it he comments that he feels sorry for the slots players in Australia, as the average RTP is usually between 85%-90%.

A few weeks ago I discovered what I think is the worst RTP I've ever seen in the UK; a category "C" slot game with an RTP of "at least" 70%. I kid you not. In the UK the RTP is normally showing on the info panel of a machine or buried away in the help file somewhere, so it's clear what you're up against if you elect to play.

Has anyone seen a game with a worst RTP than this? If so, please post details (and in particular the country where you saw it).

Cheers.
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charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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November 9th, 2015 at 6:51:29 AM permalink
You may have read http://wizardofodds.com/blog/gambling-united-kingdom/ where I helped the wizard categorise the various fruit machines in the UK. As you say they have to show the return.

The casino ones tend to be the best (94% is quite common), going down to the lower categories. I should expect 70% or 75% in pub-like machines - and beware they are not totally random but "compensated". Typically you can tell by the lower jackpot prize (currently £100) as opposed to £500 in bookies or high-street arcades; and £4000/£10000/£20000 in casinos. Of course the lottery, football pools and similar games with huge jackpots have even worse odds.
Mosca
Mosca
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November 9th, 2015 at 8:40:13 AM permalink
Wow, that is awful.

Here in PA, the state average is 89.9%, which doesn't seem that bad until you start playing and $100 blows by in 10 minutes with maybe a couple cherries and a set or two of mixed bars, or maybe a dozen 4 Ks or 3 special symbols on a 5 reel penny machine. I couldn't imagine people playing at worse RTP, this seems to be about the minimum that will keep people in the chair.
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sabre
sabre
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November 9th, 2015 at 10:28:45 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Wow, that is awful.

Here in PA, the state average is 89.9%, which doesn't seem that bad until you start playing and $100 blows by in 10 minutes with maybe a couple cherries and a set or two of mixed bars, or maybe a dozen 4 Ks or 3 special symbols on a 5 reel penny machine. I couldn't imagine people playing at worse RTP, this seems to be about the minimum that will keep people in the chair.



That average includes video poker and virtual table games, both of which have far higher returns. I'd peg actual slot returns at below 88%.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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November 9th, 2015 at 10:34:05 AM permalink
According to a person that I know that is knowledgeable enough to know these things, actual paybacks for video poker at the Airport are known to go below state minimums of 75% as a result of enough players choosing bad enough cards that result in a below-state-minimum payback.

This can never happen with our NanoTech Gaming games or any games that don't give players any choices except how much to bet, but this despicable result can happen with video poker (a return that is so anemic due to choosing to hold the wrong cards that it should be against the law IMO) as well as in craps (when playing the pass line after the four or ten is set as the point).

What I find despicable about this is that a very large portion of the states gaming revenue is made as a result of mistakes made that there is no benefit given to those who don't make those mistakes.

IMO, the hold percentage should not be greater as a result of the lack of aggregate skill of all players. But that's just my own personal opinion. When it goes below state minimum paybacks, that is when I am left scratching my head whether or not the state is paying attention to what is happening when it comes to their job of protecting players from settings that are what I would consider to be predatory in nature.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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November 9th, 2015 at 11:15:52 AM permalink
Right but I think there is a state minimum in pa I don't remember what it is, but most of the video poker has terrible pay tables, I actually think some of the high limit slots have better return them the vp- there are a few casinos with exceptions
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MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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November 9th, 2015 at 11:30:26 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

this despicable result can happen with video poker (a return that is so anemic due to choosing to hold the wrong cards that it should be against the law IMO) as well as in craps (when playing the pass line after the four or ten is set as the point).

Strategic mistakes are one thing. After all, it's possible to play blackjack with an 8% RTP (92% edge) if you always hit until you bust. The law doesn't protect gamblers from being really, really bad at blackjack.

However, allowing the player to bet even-money on a 2-1 underdog (betting a point of 4 or 10 on the passline after the comeout roll) has a 33.3% house edge and that would appear to be in violation of gaming regs. On the other hand, anytime I've ever seen someone start to do this, the dealer pushes the bet back so it straddles the outside line of the wagering area and that indicates a place-the-point wager.

Have you actually observed a dealer accepting a late line bet on a 4 and book it as an even-money pass bet?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
GWAE
GWAE
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November 9th, 2015 at 11:57:55 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Right but I think there is a state minimum in pa I don't remember what it is, but most of the video poker has terrible pay tables, I actually think some of the high limit slots have better return them the vp- there are a few casinos with exceptions



I am pretty sure it is 85%
teddys
teddys
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November 9th, 2015 at 1:34:31 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist



Have you actually observed a dealer accepting a late line bet on a 4 and book it as an even-money pass bet?

I see it all the time.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Dieter
Dieter
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November 9th, 2015 at 3:20:33 PM permalink
Quote: Goethe

Has anyone seen a game with a worst RTP than this? If so, please post details (and in particular the country where you saw it).



Not entirely sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cherry Master type "video games" often found in bars and truck stops have a lower RTP - in the 65-80% range, if that high.

When I see these, they usually say "for amusement only" and are handpay cashout only. You need to physically call an attendant (there is no attendant call light) over, who will get a key to open the machine and reset the credit meter and usually pull cash out of somewhere (hidden envelope) to satisfy your payout.

I imagine that the effective hold is quite high, since many players are likely to simply spin off the credits, rather than requesting a payout, unless they hit a sizable win.
May the cards fall in your favor.

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