Arrested for trespass. Need help! Please
I took over 4.5k+ profit in chips value in one of the nevada casino after 8 hours counting. I cashed out small amount of them and went to the sister property and tried to cash out same amount of chips.(close to $1000). The women at cashier cage asked for my id and was gonna count the money and give to me. At that moment, a phone call came in and i realized that it must be the calling from the pit manager in previous casino. I didn't feel comfortable with the lady when she told my information to the pit, so I asked for my id back, however she started walking toward to printing machine and tried to photocopy my id. I walked over there and said she cant do that by law if i am not willing to give my info. Then, the security started to ask me to leave. I took my chips and id back finally left the casino. After about 8 hours, I went back in cash out small amount of chips. I started walking around the casino to see if i can find a good table to play. Suddenly, the casino security manager and the other security asked me to go to their office or they will call the police. In the office, he wanted my id and ssn and i refused. They said they would have to call the police and i said sure. When police came in, they began questioning what was going on. The manager said I was removed from the property today for 24 hours. He wanna press the charge for trespassing. I said when I escorted off the property the security didn't tell me I was removed for 24 hours. I also didn't hear he said I will be arrested for trespassing if I went back in there. Then police looked at the picture and found out I use disguise. They arrested me and handcuffed me for trespassing.
My question is if player is kicked out the casino but without trespass act reading, will he be arrested for trespassing if he comes back in the casino.
Please let me know
Thanks
Why didn't you just cash them all out at the same time? That's what made them suspicious someone might think you're attempting to structure or something suspicious. Ill assume they called the pit to verify the fist cash out and noticed you only cashed 1k out of 4500 watched you and assumed you were going to the other property. Now they have an obligation to get whatever information they can to report you're suspicious activity. Even more suspicious you were wearing a disguise. Sounds like a ton of messing around for 4.5k.Quote: hatecasino2I was recently arrested in Nevada for casino trespass. Here is the story:
I took over 4.5k+ profit in chips value in one of the nevada casino after 8 hours counting. I cashed out small amount of them and went to the sister property and tried to cash out same amount of chips.(close to $1000). The women at cashier cage asked for my id and was gonna count the money and give to me. At that moment, a phone call came in and i realized that it must be the calling from the pit manager in previous casino. I didn't feel comfortable with the lady when she told my information to the pit, so I asked for my id back, however she started walking toward to printing machine and tried to photocopy my id. I walked over there and said she cant do that by law if i am not willing to give my info. Then, the security started to ask me to leave. I took my chips and id back finally left the casino. After about 8 hours, I went back in cash out small amount of chips. I started walking around the casino to see if i can find a good table to play. Suddenly, the casino security manager and the other security asked me to go to their office or they will call the police. In the office, he wanted my id and ssn and i refused. They said they would have to call the police and i said sure. When police came in, they began questioning what was going on. The manager said I was removed from the property today for 24 hours. He wanna press the charge for trespassing. I said when I escorted off the property the security didn't tell me I was removed for 24 hours. I also didn't hear he said I will be arrested for trespassing if I went back in there. Then police looked at the picture and found out I use disguise. They arrested me and handcuffed me for trespassing.
My question is if player is kicked out the casino but without trespass act reading, will he be arrested for trespassing if he comes back in the casino.
Please let me know
Thanks
Never heard of a 24 hour ban except for the poker room or someone disorderly, so that's strange.
No audio so it's your word against theirs and it's a high probability they will lie.
How long did you spend in jail? Did you get bailed out or get out on OR? What's up now, did they charge you? What's it a misdemeanor did you get ticket? Do you have a court date? I don't know anyone that's been arrested for trespassing. I doubt it's worth getting an attorney since it sounds as if they didn't do anything that out of line.
I didn't spend any time in jail. I paid the money for bail. There is a court date in 2 months. I was told by one of the police that it's better to ask for a plea without having to appear (since I drove there for hours) and paid the fine to stay away the trouble.
I didn't spend any time in jail. I paid the money for bail. There is a court date in 2 months. I was told by one of the police that it's better to ask for a plea without having to appear (since I drove there for hours) and paid the fine to stay away the trouble.
You got terrible advice, though, to just forfeit your bail and walk away. These days, you can't afford to have even a minor criminal conviction on your record--it'll affect everything you try to do. Show up in court and argue that you were never given a trespass notice the first time. You will probably lose--but if you're lucky, you'll get a judge who lost $2000 in a casino the previous weekend and he'll throw out the case.
Maybe I would hire a local attorney that knows how to deal with these things, making a deal is weak. Nolo Contendre is the absolute max, they're just hustling you for money; but police get paid overtime for testifying. It probably won't see a courtroom (beyond a pretrial conference.) If it were me, I'd do the defense Pro Se (defend yourself) since the lawyer is a clerk of the court, you (the one paying hundreds per hour) are not the one they work for; the court is! Rommel law may still have a legal seminar free on youtube.
Everything is on tape= no tape of them trespassing you the day before; no trespassing occurred. Even if trespassed, they have to give you an opportunity to leave. I would have just let them file the report and get the money, but you were likely worried about being flyered.
I would have asked the police to request documentation of the trespass occuring (in FL, they have you sign something and photograph you); not sure if they do that in NV but there would be a tape of you being read a notice at the least.
Most likely, the charges will not be picked up; plead not guilty. I see so many people with non-violent crimes that don't get picked up. Some punk broke into my car, I wanted arrests (actually, I wanted to take a 500 Magnum to him and vaporize his head) but they didn't pick up the charges because he tossed my card aside. Law abiding people like us assume a charge is picked up no matter what. The DA has to be able to make a case so they can quote 97% convictions or whatever they claim even though most lawyers can beat them (maybe they exclude deals, which most lawyers make.) I'd want F Lee Bailey, accusing the cop of being a psycho and getting himself off of a DUI in the 80's. That's good legal work.
I can think of several ways to achieve that so I'm sure you can too.
Quote: billionairebenI would have cashed them out at the same time, that session; but I understand the concern.
Maybe I would hire a local attorney that knows how to deal with these things, making a deal is weak. Nolo Contendre is the absolute max, they're just hustling you for money; but police get paid overtime for testifying. It probably won't see a courtroom (beyond a pretrial conference.) If it were me, I'd do the defense Pro Se (defend yourself) since the lawyer is a clerk of the court, you (the one paying hundreds per hour) are not the one they work for; the court is! Rommel law may still have a legal seminar free on youtube.
Everything is on tape= no tape of them trespassing you the day before; no trespassing occurred. Even if trespassed, they have to give you an opportunity to leave. I would have just let them file the report and get the money, but you were likely worried about being flyered.
I would have asked the police to request documentation of the trespass occuring (in FL, they have you sign something and photograph you); not sure if they do that in NV but there would be a tape of you being read a notice at the least.
Most likely, the charges will not be picked up; plead not guilty. I see so many people with non-violent crimes that don't get picked up. Some punk broke into my car, I wanted arrests (actually, I wanted to take a 500 Magnum to him and vaporize his head) but they didn't pick up the charges because he tossed my card aside. Law abiding people like us assume a charge is picked up no matter what. The DA has to be able to make a case so they can quote 97% convictions or whatever they claim even though most lawyers can beat them (maybe they exclude deals, which most lawyers make.) I'd want F Lee Bailey, accusing the cop of being a psycho and getting himself off of a DUI in the 80's. That's good legal work.
The most difficult part is the security guy asked me to leave the casino but without saying anything about trespassing. I didn't return right away and the casino security manager said I was removed for 24 hours, which I was never told. Would that be defined as trespassing if security guy only escort you out?
Quote: JoeshlabotnikIn Nevada, the casinos ARE the law. They can do anything they want to. If they say you were trespassing, you were trespassing--and the police will back them up.
You got terrible advice, though, to just forfeit your bail and walk away. These days, you can't afford to have even a minor criminal conviction on your record--it'll affect everything you try to do. Show up in court and argue that you were never given a trespass notice the first time. You will probably lose--but if you're lucky, you'll get a judge who lost $2000 in a casino the previous weekend and he'll throw out the case.
So there is no extra charge on top of the bail (I dont know much about the law). I live pretty far away from the casino. Will I be punished even worse if I defend myself unsuccessful?
Thanks
the maxes are usually reserved for habitual offenders. Judges rarely hand down jail time for a first-offense, and the prosecution will usually settle for a small fee if the defendant pleads guilty or no contest.
Quote: rainmanThe crime of trespass is a misdemeanor in Nevada. The max penalties are 6 months and or $1,000
the maxes are usually reserved for habitual offenders. Judges rarely hand down jail time for a first-offense, and the prosecution will usually settle for a small fee if the defendant pleads guilty or no contest.
If I plead not guilty or contest, will I be punished even worse?
Thanks
Quote: rainmanIF this is your first offense it is highly probable they will slap your hand, liberate a few c-notes from your wallet and send you on your way.
It is my first time. Would I need to pay extra money on top of bail instead of just forfeit the bail to end the case
IF you are going to do things like disguises and advantage play and ID protection, you should have a lawyer on retainer AND on speed dial.Quote: RSJust talk to a lawyer.
That said, it is your word against the casino's. In Nevada, the casino generally gets the benefit of the doubt in such situations. Nevertheless, I would wait to see what kind of plea deal they offer. The jails and full and the courts overloaded so they are eager to take pleas. If you can plea it down to a misdemeanor, then I would probably take it. Please keep us posted with what they offer. However, if you do decide to fight, I don't think a lawyer will help much. The facts of the case seem pretty clear. Try to brush up on the law in such trespassing cases. Beat the Players would be a great place to start, if you haven't read it already.
I think a lesson to be learned here is not to return so quickly after being "kicked out." My policy is to wait at least six months. You could have a had a friend cash those chips if you couldn't wait that long for the money.
I'm sure he could get a cheap lawyer to negotiate it way down or get it tossed out. Is it worthwhile to do all that?
I just think there's more to the story here.
I'm assuming english is not his first language.
I have a question about that. Does the casino have an obligation to make it obvious you're 86ed?
I think you have to have zero assets or close to it.Quote: GWAEsince this is a "crime", cant he just get a public defender?
Edit to add: Plus you must face a possibility of jail time.
Something like that.Quote: onenickelmiracleI think you have to have zero assets or close to it.
I believe you could get someone for less than $1500 and they would be adequate (assuming everything he says is true and he doesn't have a long record, or something like that.) This isn't some murder case. It's probably along the lines of A traffic violation or disorderly conduct. Cheaplawyers.com or something like that would do just fine.
As Mike said they just want to push stuff like this though as fast as they can.
If it's in LV I can recommend someone inexpensive.
Quote: GWAEsince this is a "crime", cant he just get a public defender?
Gideon v. Wainwright
Quote: hatecasino2So there is no extra charge on top of the bail (I dont know much about the law). I live pretty far away from the casino. Will I be punished even worse if I defend myself unsuccessful?
Thanks
Unfortunately, it's hard to say. Sometimes, if you defend yourself and lose, you wind up with a larger penalty than if you had forfeited bail and walked away; sometimes, it's virtually the same; other times, it winds up being less. It depends on the local practices, whether the judge's hemorrhoids are bothering him, etc.
Usually, though, you don't get a MUCH worse outcome if you decide to put up a fight and lose. After all, you are supposed to have the right to defend yourself and not be punished for exercising that right. The reality is somewhat different, and remember, you're in Nevada, where the law is what the casinos say it is. Nevertheless, I would take the gamble. Here's the golden rule for getting the prosecution to drop the case in situations such as this: threaten to drag it all out. Say you want a jury trial. Subpoena a dozen witnesses. File motion after motion. Delay. Delay. Delay. Ask for continuances, since you live so far away. You don't need a lawyer to do all that. Just make it not worth their while to prosecute you and they MAY say,the hell with it and drop the case.
On the other hand, you could annoy them so much that they decide to seek the death penalty against you. Just kidding :), but it really is a gamble. I think it's one worth taking, though, because of how tough it is to have even a minor criminal record.
Quote: JoeshlabotnikI think it's one worth taking, though, because of how tough it is to have even a minor criminal record.
Just out of curiosity, what are the consequences of having a criminal record? I know job applications ask about that, but do employers have a right to see your record without permission? Are just arrests on the record? It bothers me that employers don't just ask about a criminal record but arrests for anything, which could include illegitimate arrests. I thought we were supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Sorry if this is going off on a tangent a bit.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI think you have to have zero assets or close to it.
Edit to add: Plus you must face a possibility of jail time.
If you are Diamond status at CET, you get a complimentary lawyer. It's right there in the brochure, at the bottom of page five.
Seriously, folks, they do give you a means test (a short questionnaire, which you have to present to the court along with your application for a public defender), and given that the public defender's office is ALWAYS stretched thin, they'll deny your application if it looks like you can manage the expense yourself--even if it means you would have to sell your car or your wife or something like that.
Quote: WizardJust out of curiosity, what are the consequences of having a criminal record? I know job applications ask about that, but do employers have a right to see your record without permission? Are just arrests on the record? It bothers me that employers don't just ask about a criminal record but arrests for anything, which could include illegitimate arrests. I thought we were supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Sorry if this is going off on a tangent a bit.
Yes, unfortunately, though it's grossly unfair, your arrest record is independent from your criminal record. Any record of an arrest remains in the database(s) even if the arrest never led to the filing of criminal charges, or if charges were filed but you were never convicted. I found this out the hard way when I tried to enter Canada in 2005 and was denied entry based on an old arrest from 1978--Canada uses US databases for screening. The charges had been dropped the day after I was arrested, but the record of the arrest itself was still there.
Prior arrests show up on various internet searches that an employee, landlord, bank, etc. may perform. Though the law varies from state to state, such entities ARE entitled to ask/demand that you supply such information, and once you sign the application, any failure on your part to disclose it can be taken as grounds for summarily denying you whatever you're applying for. The only exception to the above is if you've had the record of your arrest expunged; then you can legally say that you have no criminal/arrest record. This applies even in Casino Land, aka Nevada.
You can legally refuse to supply information about your prior arrests, malfeasances, swearing in church, etc. and turn in an employment, rental, loan, etc. application anyway, but doing so will look VERY suspicious and will almost certainly get your application tossed. It is, in fact, better to lie in such instances. Say you don't have a record (arrest or criminal), and they may not check it. Unfortunately, the chances of this working have declined, since any clown can have an internet search done for about $7. Another unfair aspect of all this is that you're not entitled to see the results of those searches or challenge the findings, even though many of those internet companies use outdated and/or inaccurate information.
An exception to the above applies in some stinkin' liberal states, where you are NOT required to disclose such information on certain kinds of applications. Again, it varies, but you may have rights there that you wouldn't have elsewhere (Oregon is a particular example). However, that doesn't help the OP, as he's going to be rotisseried in Nevada.
Edited to add: And believe it or not, having a criminal record lowers your credit score, and in many instances, having an ARREST record, even without any convictions, will do that to you. The three major credit score companies differ somewhat in their policies about arrest records--one of the many reasons you can run your credit through all three agencies and wind up with three different (sometimes, MUCH different) scores.
If you walk the straight and narrow, good for you. You can go with God.
If you do fancy stuff in a casino, have Nerserian on speed dial.
I'm generally an honest type chap, just broke. I don't have him on speed dial, but I'd sure call if I were walking even slightly off that straight and narrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emmoJvpSGyw
Quote: hatecasino2It is my first time. Would I need to pay extra money on top of bail instead of just forfeit the bail to end the case
Forfeiting the bail by failing to appear in court (jumping bail) does not end the case.
If you fail to appear in court, a bench warrant could be issued for your arrest, and after 30 days you can be actually charged with the additional crime of failing to appear, which can carry up to 5000 in fines and up to 4 years in jail.
http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/failure-to-appear.html
Quote: JoeshlabotnikYes, ...
Great post, thank you. It was so good, I have no cross talk to give.
Getting back to the OP, I asked a police officer I work out with about this case in a general way. He said that to be arrested for trespassing you have to have been officially read the trespass act word for word. However, he also added that casinos have great leeway in detaining people because they are suspected of anything illegal. He said the casinos commonly detain "carpet hos" based just on how they are dressed. He added that flat-bottomed shoes are a dead giveaway if the suspect is otherwise provocatively dressed. Then again, this same officer is adamant that card counting is illegal so I wouldn't trust his knowledge of the law 100%.
Quote: Wizard...He said the casinos commonly detain "carpet hos" based just on how they are dressed...
They'd have a field day at The Cosmopolitan!
Quote: WizardJust out of curiosity, what are the consequences of having a criminal record? I know job applications ask about that, but do employers have a right to see your record without permission? Are just arrests on the record? It bothers me that employers don't just ask about a criminal record but arrests for anything, which could include illegitimate arrests. I thought we were supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Sorry if this is going off on a tangent a bit.
If he pleads Nolo Contendere, depending on the state laws, he could have his record expunged and sealed after a number of years. I believe the national average is 7 years.
As English doesn't appear to be your native language, I will assume you are an immigrant. A criminal conviction or a warrant for failure to appear in court can cause serious problems with ones immigration status. If you fall into that group, be sure you inform your lawyer of it. A friend in NYC was in the US on refugee status and an arrest for jumping a subway turnstile turned into a disaster and resulted in him spending almost six months in a detention center. He almost got deported to El Salvador, his girlfriend and child lost their apartment.
Quote: AxelWolfPrior criminal history might factor in.
I'm sure he could get a cheap lawyer to negotiate it way down or get it tossed out. Is it worthwhile to do all that?
I just think there's more to the story here.
I'm assuming english is not his first language.
I have a question about that. Does the casino have an obligation to make it obvious you're 86ed?
The security manager showed up and said i have two choices, the first one is to cooperate with them or they call the police. By cooperating with them, they want my id or even ssn i guess. I think they found out I was there before and make total over 10k profit and cash out different dates and location. I was told
My question is that if the court would reach out to the casino side for this part of information. The only reason why I choose to cash out different time and location is because I do not want the casino to know I am an advantage player. Then, they can input my information and boot me out of the property.
The police arrested me after they saw the picture of disguise. Then, they believed that I was trespassing due to the fact of appearance changing. After I got handcuffed, the casino staff file a paper work about 86d me forever on their property. However, I was never told that I will be arrested for trespassing if i go back there again in 24 hours.
I just checked the nevada law about trespassing. Under NRS 207.200, " (d) By the owner or occupant of the land or building making an oral or written demand to any guest to vacate the land or building". Therefore, am i considered to be trespassing if the security told me to leave the casino if I decide go back there after 8 hours?
Thanks
Quote: hatecasino2The security manager showed up and said i have two choices, the first one is to cooperate with them or they call the police. By cooperating with them, they want my id or even ssn i guess. I think they found out I was there before and make total over 10k profit and cash out different dates and location. I was told
My question is that if the court would reach out to the casino side for this part of information. The only reason why I choose to cash out different time and location is because I do not want the casino to know I am an advantage player. Then, they can input my information and boot me out of the property.
The police arrested me after they saw the picture of disguise. Then, they believed that I was trespassing due to the fact of appearance changing. After I got handcuffed, the casino staff file a paper work about 86d me forever on their property. However, I was never told that I will be arrested for trespassing if i go back there again in 24 hours.
I just checked the nevada law about trespassing. Under NRS 207.200, " (d) By the owner or occupant of the land or building making an oral or written demand to any guest to vacate the land or building". Therefore, am i considered to be trespassing if the security told me to leave the casino if I decide go back there after 8 hours?
Thanks
I have NO expertise or experience in this. However, I find it hard to believe that the casino could make a trespassing charge stick in court as you describe the events.
They didn't explicitly read a trespass notice to you.
They didn't have you sign one.
They didn't give you a time frame to not return. Nobody would be expected to know what the legal amount of time involved based on the statute you posted; I would think it's indefinite ban, without consulting a lawyer. But you weren't notified of the trespass, just told to leave. 2 very different things.
Don't know what the disguise thing is about. Not illegal to wear wigs, other things. If you admitted your intent was to deceive the casino with it, that was a mistake.
Based ONLY on what you've told us, I'd plead not guilty. They would have to prove they first notified you legally in order to enforce a trespass order and make a valid arrest. It doesn't sound like they did. Again, JMHO.
Sometimes I wonder if people just like to read their typing, like hearing themselves talk.
Drop a couple of shekels on a local lawyer and get real advice if you need it.
Oh yea, congratulations on your great card counting talents.
Quote: WizardJust out of curiosity, what are the consequences of having a criminal record? I know job applications ask about that, but do employers have a right to see your record without permission? Are just arrests on the record? It bothers me that employers don't just ask about a criminal record but arrests for anything, which could include illegitimate arrests. I thought we were supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Sorry if this is going off on a tangent a bit.
One problem with having a criminal record is some countries won't allow you to enter,Canada for one.
Even with a dui conviction within the last 10 years Canada will usually refuse entry.
If I was in your spot I would immediately call Robert Nersesian. He is the foremost attorney in Las Vegas when dealing with any matters that involve a casino. I won't include a link since I'm not certain how that would be viewed here. Google will do.
He has been on The Wiz's old show gambling with an edge many times and has 2 books that cover casino patron rights. If his service isn't available I would trust a referral from his office. I'm certain there are many Nevada attorneys that could handle this but I would ask him about the situation first. Don't screw around with this.
I was actually having the same thoughts, sometimes things don't add up or make sense.Quote: blackholeHere we have an obvious AP who’s good enough to win thousands without being noticed at the tables, plus he’s in disguise. Sounds like he’s been around the block a few times. Yet, he doesn’t have a clue about anything else.
Sometimes I wonder if people just like to read their typing, like hearing themselves talk.
Drop a couple of shekels on a local lawyer and get real advice if you need it.
Oh yea, congratulations on your great card counting talents.
Either way, others might learn something if it happens to them.
I love when people want to call Bob over stuff like this it's the 2nd time I have heard that here.Quote: WingnutDon't fool around you need to do the proper thing to protect yourself right away.
If I was in your spot I would immediately call Robert Nersesian. He is the foremost attorney in Las Vegas when dealing with any matters that involve a casino. I won't include a link since I'm not certain how that would be viewed here. Google will do.
He has been on The Wiz's old show gambling with an edge many times and has 2 books that cover casino patron rights. If his service isn't available I would trust a referral from his office. I'm certain there are many Nevada attorneys that could handle this but I would ask him about the situation first. Don't screw around with this.
I would be shocked if he wanted anything to do with this. Also it's a criminal matter. It's hard enough to get him on what seems to be a slam dunk case with a $2500+ retainer.
I think he's even retiring soon.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI'm curious what kind of disguise you used. Did it work at all or did you just look ridiculously obvious.
It might have been that "I am not a card counter" t-shirt and the pink sombrero.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI'm curious what kind of disguise you used. Did it work at all or did you just look ridiculously obvious.
The disguise doesn't help a lot I guess. The problem is the cops watched my picture and compared to me and they insist that the purpose of changing my appearance is to re-enter the casino. However, I guess it is legal to take the baseball hat off and get saved 8 hours later after long hours playing.
