CasinoRick
CasinoRick
Joined: Mar 10, 2017
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March 11th, 2017 at 7:41:13 PM permalink
Hi there! I am a newly registered user on this forum. I have been reading posts here for the past few days and trying to comprehend something. What is the definition of an Advantage Player? I mean, if no betting system, strategy, method, or progression will ever "win in the long run" against a negative expectation game, then how is anyone considered an AP? You can count cards in BJ, I understand, vary your bet sizes based on that, but in reality, the dealer has just as much chance to get 20 or 21 (face cards) as you are, right? Every game that the casino offers is a negative expectation game. But, there are plenty of people out there who play in the casino for a living. How? If everything everyone is saying is true, then you have to be 'cheating' in the casino to gain that edge?

Thanks for your time and am hopeful to get responses that are not just bashing me for asking an honest question!
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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Roma5512
March 11th, 2017 at 8:07:11 PM permalink
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iR3fSL9WMdg
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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RisingDoughZugaRomes
March 11th, 2017 at 10:12:04 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoRick

What is the definition of an Advantage Player?

Simply put, it's someone that plays with an advantage. There are diffrent degrees of advantage players: Full time, part time, weekend warriors etc. There are many diffrent type of advantage players: Blackjack card counters, hole carders on various diffrent table games, Slots AP's, video poker APs, sports etc etc. There are AP's that play anything and everything possible, as long as they have a +EV situation.

Quote: CasinoRick

I mean, if no betting system, strategy, method, or progression will ever "win in the long run" against a negative expectation game, then how is anyone considered an AP?

You are correct, nothing will beat a negative EV situation. I think what you are basically referring to are betting systems. A betting system usually consists of some crazy money management system that ties in with gambler's fallacy. There are legitimate METHODS that DO work. BUT THAT IS ONLY IF YOU HAVE A +EV SITUATION.

Most games are -EV off the top, but not all SITUATIONS are -EV. Not all games are either, sometimes casinos make mistakes.

Quote: CasinoRick

You can count cards in BJ, I understand, vary your bet sizes based on that, but in reality, the dealer has just as much chance to get 20 or 21 (face cards) as you are, right?

Yes, but when you get a blackjack you get paid more. When you are counting you know when to take insurance. If you think about that more, you should understand quickly. I think Romes gave a good example regarding if there were only 10's and aces left in the deck. If you both got BJ an = amount of time YOU would be way ahead.

Quote: CasinoRick

Every game that the casino offers is a negative expectation game.

That's not true, read up on full pay Video poker, VP Progressives, VP bonus games (Ultimate X) VP that's 99%+ while adding slot clubs in.

There are some good casino promotions. When you add a promotion in while playing a -EV game, that adds EV to whatever game you are playing. The right promotion can give you a +EV situation. It doesn't change the odds on the game itself. The +EV is coming from the extra money the casino is giving away to the players.

Quote: CasinoRick

If everything everyone is saying is true, then you have to be 'cheating' in the casino to gain that edge?

If you understood what I wrote you know know this is not true.

I dont think anyone wants to hand feed you the information. There is tons of information on this site and all over google.

Here are some simple easy to understand AP suggestions for you to research.

Advantage play bonus slots as well. Anything by Mickey Crimm is laid out well and easy to understand.

Slot progressives, Must Hits.

Research slot/VP loss rebates

Research Edge sorting.

Research Match plays.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
LostWages
LostWages 
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ZugaRomes
March 11th, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoRick

You can count cards in BJ, I understand, vary your bet sizes based on that, but in reality, the dealer has just as much chance to get 20 or 21 (face cards) as you are, right?

With AxelWolf's commentary, I think you are off to a good start. When you are ready to dig in for even MORE detailed explanations, I recommend you read all 3 of these articles by Romes:


http://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/

http://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/q

http://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-3/

Don't be afraid of getting bashed for asking honest questions . . . be more afraid of the feedback you might be missing unless you provide a question with as much detail as possible (the details give those experienced players a good foundation to "address"). For example, when you play BJ, do you know

1 . . . the house edge?
2. . . . your bet spread?
3. . . . your session bankroll?
4. . . . your hourly EV (expected value) of the game you’re going to play? and
5. . . . the PEN? Don't play if < 60%, because you'll rarely get a TC to merit raising your bet.

Happy asking!
Eat real food . . . and you won't need medicine (or a lot less!)
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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March 12th, 2017 at 3:31:37 AM permalink
Nobody is going to pounce on you Rick, in fact there is a degree of relief in being able to recognize a straight up question untarnished by gambling fallacies or trolling urges.

One thing to realize is that the House usually makes a practice of returning losses back to players in various forms, in order to entice them to keep gambling. Since you call yourself CasinoRick you must have experienced some of that. When they do that, they are putting themselves at slight risk, as the intention is to return a small fraction; those that do as much as 30% returned are rare. Some of this can have an inflated or false value too, fooling a player into thinking he's making out quite well when he's not. Yet it is possible to be ahead of the game, it has happened to me, this thing of being over-comped. There was a casino giving me enough freeplay including free Ace coupons that just exceeded in cash value what my expected losses were. To be sure, there was a limit to this, it didn't just keep coming, more like a once a month thing. I had to drive too far to really be making out as it covered my gas cost plus some, but I think not the true cost in car mileage. I'll say I was not deluded to think this was cheap entertainment sure enough, though.

I'm not sure how it happened, I seem to have gotten on the wrong list. Perhaps it would have come to an end; as it was, it continued until I moved even further away, then I just had to quit going.

Comps were mentioned by others, but I just wanted to emphasize this. Note that if you are the kind of gambler that runs up big expected losses, you are very likely to be comped well but probably at 30% returned at best, if more not in real cash value.
Baccarat is a game whereby the croupier gathers in money with a flexible sculling oar, then rakes it home. If I could have borrowed his oar I would have stayed. ~Mark Twain
Nathan
Nathan
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March 12th, 2017 at 5:47:08 AM permalink
Welcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)
Guy "won" less than his bet and the slot machine had the audacity to tell him he got a big win! SMH! Also, the Nintendo cartridge is so much more important than the Nintendo console. Without the cartridge, the Nintendo console is just a useless box.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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CrystalMathBozonenickelmiracleRomesmamatMaxPen
March 12th, 2017 at 6:24:24 AM permalink
Quote: Nathan

Welcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)

Rick please disregard anything Nathan has to say about AP(sorry Nathan, but I'm not the only one thinking that). From his posts he's proven to know almost nothing about Advantage Play. Listening to him would be -EV.

His piggy bank theory is pig sh*t / piggy bunk. His system might help HIM lose less money temporarily and in between gambling sessions, but that's only because it puts people in a situation where they are playing less on -EV games.



The first thing you need to learn about AP is how to tell fact from fiction. Read up on gamblers fallacy. If you or someone can't prove you have an advantage using MATH calculations (it must add up to over a 100%), there is no way you have an advantage.

Money management systems do not work. AP's should use bankroll management to keep from going broke.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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March 12th, 2017 at 6:56:05 AM permalink
Really, Nathan, I haven't seen an iota of evidence you have taken a moment out of your time to really educate yourself about gambling... and your contribution to this thread was a gambler's fallacy, that money management is a way to beat the house.

I think one way in which Kentry got himself banished was evidence that he was under age 21. Should moderators also factor in something like "totally ignorant posting = de facto trolling"

case in point: a contribution to a thread that will result in hijacking the thread
Baccarat is a game whereby the croupier gathers in money with a flexible sculling oar, then rakes it home. If I could have borrowed his oar I would have stayed. ~Mark Twain
Nathan
Nathan
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slackyhacky
March 12th, 2017 at 10:56:57 AM permalink
Odious, how is telling people to put their winnings in a Winners Bank and only play with a little money a bad thing?
Guy "won" less than his bet and the slot machine had the audacity to tell him he got a big win! SMH! Also, the Nintendo cartridge is so much more important than the Nintendo console. Without the cartridge, the Nintendo console is just a useless box.
billryan
billryan 
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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March 12th, 2017 at 11:44:13 AM permalink
In some games, the last hand played has no effect on the current hand. In others they do.
When 27 is the number on a roulette spin, it's not removed from the wheel and has the same chance of coming up the next spin.
Contrast that to Blackjack, the cards played in the last hand are gone and can't be used again until the next shuffle.
The casino has a slight edge on a new deck, but after cards are removed, that edge can swing either way.
Many people exploit promotions and player clubs.
Others exploit dealer mistakes.

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