Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

Quote: MrV

The questioned action did NOT cross the line; in essence it asked those who wanted to vote "after hours" to state affirmatively that they had a good reason not to vote earlier.

It did not in essence ask that. To caucus on Saturday evening one had to affirm they missed the morning caucus for religious reasons.

"Hundreds of people who crowded into the Adelson Educational Campus in Summerlin witnessed repeated clashes between local Republican party officials and would-be caucus-goers who resented being required to affirm their religious beliefs before being allowed to participate." -- LVRJ article.

That is pure and simple religious discrimination. I applaud those who attempted to caucus anyway for other reasons.

Quote: Nareed

Hypocritical ones do, anyway.

Someone I'm familiar with was walking through a very Jewish neighborhood in New York on a hot Saturday afternoon. He noticed a Jew standing on the sidewalk. When it came time to pass, the Jew asked the walker if he could come into his home to turn on the air conditioner.

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. It requires a lot more effort to stand around on a hot day and wait for someone to come by and agree to your request than just turn it on yourself. In other words, he rested LESS by refusing to turn it on himself.

Quote: Wizard

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. It requires a lot more effort to stand around on a hot day and wait for someone to come by and agree to your request than just turn it on yourself. In other words, he rested LESS by refusing to turn it on himself.

The truly orthodox must turn off their motion sensors before Sabbath so that they don't inadvertently turn on something by walking in a room. Some people wait until the refrigerator motor is running until they open the door, since otherwise they may inadvertently raise the temperature inside the refrigerator and start the motor. Some rabbis go so far as to prohibit any thermostats whatsoever. They are permitted to set the DVR to record a show on the Sabbath to watch the next day.

I don't think you can assert standards like Kilojoules of work expended to a religious tradition and call one decision ridiculous. These rules are set up knowing full well that an elderly person might suffer in the Nevada heat if a thermostat breaks down or is prohibited.

Religious decisions sometimes defy logic on a fundamental level.

Quote: Wizard

Someone I'm familiar with was walking through a very Jewish neighborhood in New York on a hot Saturday afternoon. He noticed a Jew standing on the sidewalk. He came up to him the Jew asked if the walker could come into his home to turn on his air conditioner.

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. It requires a lot more effort to stand around on a hot day and wait for someone to come by and agree to your request than just turn it on yourself. In other words, he rested LESS by refusing to turn it on himself.

You're absolutely right. It IS ridiculous. Or hypocritical.

The reality is, the Jew is also prohibited from asking for the non-Jew to turn on the A/C.

If the person approached, and the Jew said, "Boy I'm glad you came by. It's hot in my home, but I'm not allowed to turn on the A/C. Would you mind?..." That is not only forbidden, but damned hypocritical.

If, on the other hand, the exchange went differently, such as the person initiating the conversation: "What are you doing outside on such a hot day?"
"It's too hot inside, and I forgot to turn my A/C on before Shabbos."
"Oh. Well I'll turn it on for you..."
THAT is a different situation. In my opinion, it's still hypocritical, but allowed.

The term "Shabbos goy" refers to someone hired to do all manner of things on Shabbos that the Jew is not permitted to do. However, all the things the goy does must be things he ordinarily does in the course of his regular job. I.E. A person working for a synagogue on Shabbos, turning lights on and off is not necessarily doing that on Shabbos. It would be his job to do that any time there is any sort of activity at the synagogue, regardless of the day of the week.

Sure, he'd also be the one turning on the sound system. But to actually use the sound system is something orthodox Jews also say is forbidden. You won't see sound systems in orthodox synagogues.

Quote: pacomartin

Religious decisions sometimes defy logic on a fundamental level.

Sometimes?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The term "Shabbos goy" refers to someone hired to do all manner of things on Shabbos that the Jew is not permitted to do. However, all the things the goy does must be things he ordinarily does in the course of his regular job.

Bull.

Here's the relevant line: "Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates."

Granted it says nothing about employees, but it seems that if even animals get to rest, then employees should too.

Granted the whole thing is foolishness to begin with, but at least I can have some respect for people who do follow the principles they claim to follow.

35 years ago, I had a religious Jewish friend. We were teenagers and he was trying to follow all the rules of Judaism as best as a kid could. He stayed Kosher, went to synogogue, etc... I came home from basketball one Saturday and saw him carrying my mother's suitcases from her car to our apartment. He said that he thought God would be angrier with him if he didn't beak the 'no carry' rule and watched my mother struggle with her bags. If only more could use religion and their belief in God that way.....

Quote: Nareed

Here's the relevant line: "Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates."

Granted it says nothing about employees, but it seems that if even animals get to rest, then employees should too.

I would interpret "manservant or maidservant" or be employees.

Quote: Wizard

I would interpret "manservant or maidservant" to be employees.

I think the servants talked about are slaves. People who would, without this commandment, be working 7 days per week.

The same goes for work animals.

On the other hand, certain types of work is allowed. For example, dairy cows must be milked daily (twice daily?). Failure to do that is painful and dangerous for the cow.

Similarly, the sabbath laws may be broken when lives are at stake.

For example, each time my sister-in-law was pregnant, my brother had an envelope with cab fare to the hospital, with tip, set aside. When "Time to go" came on shabbos, he called the cab company, they rode to the hospital, and he gave the driver the envelope.

In fact, he tells me that after calling until the cab arrives, it is ok to answer the phone - in case it's the cabbie and he can't find the house. It's OK for him to ride along, in case his wife needs help of any sort. Of course, once he gets to the hospital, and the doctors take over, he is once again bound to the rules. If it turns out to be a false alarm, they have to wait until after shabbos to get a ride home.

Note that the shabbos laws were set aside, even though pregnancy is usually not a life-treatening event. But the key word is "usually."


On a similar note, did SooPoo's friend do the right thing? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's hard to argue with the rationale employed.



I could go on and on. It's all interesting stuff.

Quote: Wizard

I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me.

The whole thing is ridiculous. What is more work, or what takes more effort: to drive to the temple or to walk there? To use a microphone or to raise your voice to be heard in a large room? To stumble around in the dark, or to switch on the lights? To turn on the A/C, or a fan, or to swelter in the heat? To use the elevator, or the stairs?

Granted the "commandment" says no work for you, your family, employees (maybe), servants and animals. It doesn't mention machines or devices, which have no feelings, don't get tired and require no rest. One more curious omission by the omnipotent deity, no doubt...

To their credit, I know several observant Conservative Jews who make use of timers and motion sensors to run some machines and lights. Though they still won't drive.

The Torah and associated commentary are pretty clear on what "manner of work" is or is not allowed. It's not precluding work in the mechanical sense -- you're allowed to flex muscles to do things like getting dressed, even though that is thermodynamically "work". But the Hebrew "melachot" doesn't truly mean "work" in the sense that modern English speakers think of it. Wikipedia has an article on the 39 melachot, and explains why things like completing a circuit by turning on a switch are disallowed.