Stop trying to kill me

Now that I have your attention, seriously stop trying to kill me.

As to the poll question, simply answer whether you think antibiotics can cure a viral infection, like the flu, or whether they do absolutely nothing.

Anyway, every time I get a cold, which is most years, lots of people pester me to "take something for it." I know lately there are some flu medications available, but so far a re reserved for treatment of potentially deadly flu like the bird flu ro the swine flu, not the common cold. For a cold you can't take anything but fluids and rest, I doubt even vitamin C is helpful. What is certain is that antibiotics won't touch the cold and flu viruses, nor any othe kind of virus that ever existed.

This doesn't stop people from taking antibiotics and, worse yet, doctors from prescribing them.

Most antibiotics are harmless to the patient if taken in error (not all, though), without much in the way of adverse side effects. In the short term, that is. In the long term, bacteria of all kinds, from symbiotic bacteria in the gut, to deadly infectious bacteria, to neutral bacteria just hanging around, the exposure to low doses of antibiotics can provide them with resistance to it.

Now, while bacteria reproduce asexually, they're known to exchange genetic material with other bacteria, often of the same species, but also of other species. So if you help to give resistance to some harmless bug that hangs around doing nothing, it might transfer that resistance to more dangerous bacteria, like pseudomonas, or the bugs that cause pneumonia and other diseases.

Then one day you fall ill with one of them, and whatever antibiotics your doctor rpescribes won't work, or won't work well.

The resistance problem is more complicated, of coruse. Another factor is incomplete treatment. Say your doctor prescribes antiobiotics to be taken orally for 12 days. After five days or so you're felling better, so you stop taking them. You're feeling better because some of the infectious bugs ahve been killed, but not yet all. You may have done in enough so your immune system can deal with the rest, and you won't relapse. But you allowed some bugs to escape after insufficient exposure to the drugs that would kill them, thereby increasing their chances of developing resistance.

There's also the practicein the cattle industry of feeding antibiotics to cows and other animals to speed up their growth. I'm not sure about the mechanism there, but it works. unfortunately that, too, increases resistance in all bacteria.

So next time you get a cold, take a few days off and buy orange juice. And if you're prescribed pills for X number of days, take them all those days.

Just stop trying to kill me. And incidentally yourself, too.

And don't even get me started on antibacterial soap!

I never know what to think about this. Obviously, the antibiotics aren't going to kill a virus - viruses not being bacteria and all. But they will kill any low level bacterial infection that is present. Similarly, anti-allergy meds won't cure a cold. But they'll almost certainly make you feel better, unless you're one of the very few people who is truly allergic to nothing.

I look at it this way:
On any given day, I start at about 85%-95% healthy based on allergies and slight illnesses. I deal with that without medication. It's easy. But, if I also get a cold and drop to maybe 50-60% healthy, I may take allergy meds or more rarely antibiotics to reclaim some of the original 5-15% of missing health. Every little bit helps.

Sorry for hijacking the thread with the comment on the attempt to overturn the smoking ban in bars. That topic has been moved to Stop trying to kill me (with secondhand smoke).

In spite of my user ID, I am not a physician and have no medical training beyond the first aid lessons from the Boy Scouts 50+ years ago.

It is my understanding that antibiotics are commonly prescribed for viral infections not because they have any chance of killing the virus itself, but because almost all viral infections are accompanied by bacterial infection at some level. By attacking the bacterial infection with antibiotics, the treatment allows the body a better shot at dealing with (or at least coping with) the virus.

Quote: Doc

It is my understanding that antibiotics are commonly prescribed for viral infections not because they have any chance of killing the virus itself, but because almost all viral infections are accompanied by bacterial infection at some level. By attacking the bacterial infection with antibiotics, the treatment allows the body a better shot at dealing with (or at least coping with) the virus.

It can happen, of course, especially in people with weakened or depressed immune systems. But it doens't always happen. I know some doctors rpescribe broad spectrum antibiotics just in case. I think that's irresponsible. And in the case of the common cold and flu, concurrent bacterial infections aren't that common. Not to mention since the cold abates in a week or two anyway, lots of epople don't complete the course of antibiotic treatment.

In the csae of my parents' generation, I understand the near-awe they view antibiotics with. before sulfa and penicilline, even a simple infection could kill, and you couldn't do anything about it but get supportive care. Then along come these drugs and suddenly an infection that had a good chance to kill you became a one- or two-week in bed nuissance.

So naturally they'd think these miracle drugs could do anything.

I don't understand a similar view in later generations, who still think antibiotics are the answer to all infection.

Anti-viral drugs, though, are new, few and have spotty records. Just the same they've turned a death-sentence like AIDS into a chronic condition. that's remarkable. And, for the moment, people can't get at them easily and doctors don't prescribe them for the common cold or the flu. I can only hope the mistakes made with antibiotics won't be repeated this time.

On a related note, I heard in a science radio show of a fascinating experiment involving drug resistant bacteria. these bugs were given an antibiotic they could resist, only contained within carbon nanotubes. The tubes themselves did nothing, the antibiotic did nothing, but taken together they killed the bugs quickly. As I understand the experiments were conducted in cultures, but it would be wonderful if a simple solution to drug resistance could be found.

Protect us, Oh Lord, from the tyranny of the majority ... including those who believe in the existence of a Deity.

All these faddists. Polio was a great scourge. No one was going to listen to a rural GP in Georgia, particularly a Negro. Yet everyone would jump on the DDT bandwagon to rid our communities of mosquitoes even though mosquitoes had nothing to do with Polio.

Doctors would advise people to close their windows so as to avoid the dangers of Night Air.

Some doctors advised placing broad-spectrum antibiotics under strict control so as to avoid routine prescribing of them and the predictable loss of their potency, most doctors wanted the unrestricted prescribing rights.

Multivitamins, butter versus margarine, motorcycle and bicycle helmets, school sports, child-proofed homes, vaccines ... and these people all want to impose their faddist beliefs on everyone else. Gay Related Immune Dysfunction has to be renamed AIDS and victims of their own behavior have to be called "people living with Aids" and the whole heterosexual world has to be convinced they are at risk simply because a vocal minority wishes to avoid direct and immediately effective action.

A Southern Governor who promises that even Blacks who volunteer for medical experiments will be pardoned risks his political ruin but avoids the greater shame of being someone who listens to faddist medical notions.

Now what do we have this time: The right to smoke versus the rights of others to inhale? Cigarette smokers don't like to be referred to as Nicotine Addicts.

McMartin Day Care and Wenatchee witchcraft hysteria made the Salem witch trials look tame. (Yes, I know... it didn't actually take place in the town now known as Salem. All those witchcraft related touristy businesses have absolutely no claim to fame at all.

So now someone wants to regulate excessive use of bacterial soap?

There are some good reasons to throw the everything you can at bacteria and viruses. Genetic RNA recombination is a major factor responsible for the emergence of new viral strains or species.



Think of it like this. A person gets sick with "Bug1". Bug one is relatively harmless and it normally runs it's course in about 10 days, and a much shorter period if the infected person takes an antibiotic. However, rather than taking the antibiotic the person allows "Bug1" to just run it's course. After a few days, the person encounters "Bug2" and contracts it as well. Next "Bug1 and Bug2" share a little RNA and produce the new "Super Bug3".

I believe there's also another reason to treat infections with antibiotics. We often times naively believe that we have fully recovered from an infection after we feel better.
However, some infectious agents stay with us for an entire lifetime and recombine with other bacteria or virus through RNA recombination or by other means and may have unforeseen consequences like Parkinson's, cancers, schizophrenia, shingles, alzheimer's, obesity, etc. We are finding some interesting connections to retroviruses, etc and some chronic diseases.



So while it may seem as though we should avoid antibiotic abuse, the real solution may be just the opposite. Some of the so called "harmless childhood" sickness may require an antibiotic overload to avoid the dire consequences of chronic disease later in life. Helicobacter immediately comes to mind.

-Keyser

Whether it's 100% scientifically proven yet or not, I also can't stand those that pop antibiotics seemingly at whim. I have a perpetual sinus infection because I refuse to get my tonsils out and Mrs Face is always trying to get me to take them. I've no problem taking them sometimes, but not until I've done everything I can to knock it out naturally. I don't want my natural biotics nuked and to become so reistant I die from a yeast infection at 50. /sarcasm.

And the soap, my god. You would assume some people believe we wade through piles of anthrax in our day to day. This new 'gotta be clean' and 'there's a med for that' culture makes no sense to me. A bee sting nowadays requires a medical tool chest and an alchemy set. Or you could gently squeeze the toxin out and rub some mud into it. I do the mud and the burn stops immediately and doesnt itch ever again. You wreck your bike and rash your arm, and people break out the peroxide, neosporin, antibiotic soap and sterile gauze pads (which always heal into the wound, so when you change them you rip off the new flesh with it.) I take some dry dust (from a sand pile, top layer of your lawn, side of the road in a pinch) and dust the wound like you'd bread a chicken breast. The bleeding stops immediately, the burning stops immediately, and it scabs up dry in like 20 minutes. I'm probably the other extreme, but in my experience, going the medical route always bit me on the ass, whether its the gauze healing into a wound, getting a flu shot resulting in the flu (havent got the shot and hence havent got the flu in 15 years), and applying salves and potions to abrasions just kept them wet and open for a week, whereas my dirt remedy peels off in 3-5 days. Sounds crazy and I've been mocked (or reprimanded) before, but I've always come out better in the end.

A farmer with a deep laceration needs this stuff, what with being surrounded by dirty livestock and working in feces all day. Little Johnny with a knee scrape only needs a kiss on the head and a pat on the butt.

Quote: Face

Whether it's 100% scientifically proven yet or not, I also can't stand those that pop antibiotics seemingly at whim. I have a perpetual sinus infection because I refuse to get my tonsils out and Mrs Face is always trying to get me to take them. I've no problem taking them sometimes, but not until I've done everything I can to knock it out naturally. I don't want my natural biotics nuked and to become so reistant I die from a yeast infection at 50. /sarcasm.

I was resistant to having my tonsils out too, until an infection caused them to swell and cut off my air supply. They had to insert a breathing tube so that I could breath and did emergency surgery to remove them. It all happened within 48 hours, but took me several months to recover. I also lost over 30 pounds form the ordeal. Tonsil infections as an adult can kill you in short order.



Regarding your sinus infection: If you keep your finger out of there you'll find that your nose bleeds and the infection will clear right up. :) (joking)


-Keyser

Quote: Face

I don't want my natural biotics nuked and to become so reistant I die

My wife nearly died from over zealous use of antibiotics. She had something mild and the doctor prescribed a strong antibiotic that wiped out the good along with the bad. When her system rebuilt, the bad bacteria took hold before the good bacteria could reestablish itself. She was skin and bones and nearly died from malnutrition before the problem was found. It took years to get her healthy again, and now 15 years later she still has lingering issues. I am not a fan of casual use of antibiotics.

Its not just plasmid exchange between various "Bug" strains. Most evolution of pathogens seems driven by host nutritional states. A weak pathogen and a malnourished host easily produce a strong pathogen. Fools who take an iron supplement when beset by a viral disease do a great deal of damage to themselves and others.

And as far as persistence goes, there is always the gall bladder the body's pathogen storehouse. Also most pathogen persistence is in L-forms and so are not susceptible to diagnostic tests. L-forms are cell wall deficient forms wherein a pathogen that is under severe stress (ie, the host's immune system is about to become successful) sheds its cell wall. Sort of the equivalent of a soldier in an invading army taking off his uniform. Soldiers see their own uniform and the enemy uniform, they tend not to "see" nudists.

Quote: Keyser

There are some good reasons to throw the everything you can at bacteria and viruses. Genetic RNA recombination is a major factor responsible for the emergence of new viral strains or species.



Think of it like this. A person gets sick with "Bug1". Bug one is relatively harmless and it normally runs it's course in about 10 days, and a much shorter period if the infected person takes an antibiotic. However, rather than taking the antibiotic the person allows "Bug1" to just run it's course. After a few days, the person encounters "Bug2" and contracts it as well. Next "Bug1 and Bug2" share a little RNA and produce the new "Super Bug3".

But that might happen with antibiotics as well. In fact, resistance in the absence of antibiotics is a really long shot.

Now, when you're sick with a bacterial infection, even if it's not serious, taking antibiotics is the propper course of action, so long as you take the full treatment.

Quote:

So while it may seem as though we should avoid antibiotic abuse, the real solution may be just the opposite. Some of the so called "harmless childhood" sickness may require an antibiotic overload to avoid the dire consequences of chronic disease later in life. Helicobacter immediately comes to mind.

Whoa! Easy there! Heliobacter is present in just about everyone. it causes peptic ulcers only in some cases. And the big discovery concerning it was that ulcers and some types of stomach cancer could be successfully cured, not merely treated, with antibiotics. Prior to thet, ulcers were treated with antacids, diet and beta blockers. The treatment was not very effective, the ulcers never went away, and the patients dind't live as long as they should.

Why the dman bug sometimes attacks is another matter. But I'd hate to see a resistant strain taking hold beacuse some doctors think they may as well humor their patients and prescribe antibiotics for a simple cold.

Quote: FleaStiff

Gay Related Immune Dysfunction has to be renamed AIDS and victims of their own behavior have to be called "people living with Aids" and the whole heterosexual world has to be convinced they are at risk simply because a vocal minority wishes to avoid direct and immediately effective action.

Except that the African spread of HIV is not Gay-Related, and the biggest vector is due to prostitution (and lack of condom usage).

AIDS spreads via blood, and while certain activities heighten that risk, it's not that activity that causes the disease itself.

Quote:

Why the dman bug sometimes attacks is another matter. But I'd hate to see a resistant strain taking hold beacuse some doctors think they may as well humor their patients and prescribe antibiotics for a simple cold.

H pylori (Helicobacter pylori) is now treated with antibiotics. We tend to catch such infections as children. If you catch it, then you should most definitely treat it. I have "Barretts Esophagus" as a result of it.

From Wiki -"Helicobacter pylori (English pronunciation: /ˌhɛlɨkɵˈbæktər pɪˈlɔraɪ/) is a Gram-negative, microaerophilic bacterium that can inhabit various areas of the stomach, particularly the antrum. It causes a chronic low-level inflammation of the stomach lining and is strongly linked to the development of duodenal and gastric ulcers, stomach cancer and Parkinson's disease[1] . Over 80 percent of individuals infected with the bacterium are asymptomatic.[2]

The bacterium was initially named Campylobacter pyloridis, then renamed C. pylori (pylori being the genitive of pylorus) to correct a Latin grammar error. When 16S ribosomal RNA gene sequencing and other research showed in 1989 that the bacterium did not belong in the genus Campylobacter, it was placed in its own genus, Helicobacter. The genus derived from the ancient Greek hělix/έλιξ "spiral" or "coil".[3] The specific epithet pylōri means "of the pylorus" or pyloric valve (the circular opening leading from the stomach into the duodenum), from the Ancient Greek word πυλωρός, which means gatekeeper.[3]

More than 50% of the world's population harbor H. pylori in their upper gastrointestinal tract. Infection is more prevalent in developing countries, and incidence is decreasing in Western countries. H. pylori's helix shape (from which the generic name is derived) is thought to have evolved to penetrate the mucoid lining of the stomach.[4][5]"



Treatment

Further information: Helicobacter pylori eradication protocols
Once H. pylori is detected in patients with a peptic ulcer, the normal procedure is to eradicate it and allow the ulcer to heal. The standard first-line therapy is a one week "triple therapy" consisting of proton pump inhibitors such as omeprazole, lansoprazole and the antibiotics clarithromycin and amoxicillin.[48] Variations of the triple therapy have been developed over the years, such as using a different proton pump inhibitor, as with pantoprazole or rabeprazole, or replacing amoxicillin with metronidazole for people who are allergic to penicillin.[49] Such a therapy has revolutionized the treatment of peptic ulcers, and has made a cure to the disease possible; previously, the only option was symptom control using antacids, H2-antagonists or proton pump inhibitors alone.[50][51]

An increasing number of infected individuals are found to harbour antibiotic-resistant bacteria. This results in initial treatment failure and requires additional rounds of antibiotic therapy or alternative strategies, such as a quadruple therapy, which adds a bismuth colloid, such as bismuth subsalicylate.[38][52][53] For the treatment of clarithromycin-resistant strains of H. pylori, the use of levofloxacin as part of the therapy has been suggested.[54][55]

An article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found evidence that "ingesting lactic acid bacteria exerts a suppressive effect on Helicobacter pylori infection in both animals and humans," noting that "supplementing with Lactobacillus- and Bifidobacterium-containing yogurt (AB-yogurt) was shown to improve the rates of eradication of H. pylori in humans." - From Wiki

Quote: Keyser

H pylori is now treated with antibiotics. We tend to catch such infections as children. If you catch it, then you should most definitely treat it. I have "Barretts Esophagus" as a result of it.

Sorry to hear that.

But the other info you quoted states over 50% of the world's population has it. How many develop problems from it? There are a lot of opportunistic bacteria that just hang around, kept in check by the immune system, and are dangerous only when the immune system weakens. Pseudomonas, for example. Some we might be able to erradicate with antibiotics, but I'm sure not all.

One other solution, which strikes me as better than antibiotics, involves developing genetically engineered variants that rean't dangerous. there are experimental treatments for Chron's disease, for example, and even a variant of the bug that causes cavities. The new one secrets alcohol ratehr than acid. The alcohol does not damage teeth and it's produced in amounts too small to affect most people.