Toll Roads in Mexico

Nareed was discussing the toll prices in Mexico which are considerably higher than in the USA (even than around NYC). From Mexico City to the nearby state capital of Morelia which are less than 200 miles apart you must stop and pay 7 tolls that total 337 pesos each way (around $28). The spacing of the toll booths is often very close so you are forced to stop over and over.

#	Toll-Booth	Pesos	km	Dollars	miles
1	La Venta	62		$5.13
			48.5		30.1
2	Xonacatlán	39		$3.23
			27.0		16.8
3	El Dorado	28		$2.32
			30.0		18.6
4	Atlacomulco	28		$2.32
			17.0		10.6
5	San Juanico	37		$3.06
			47.0		29.2
6	Contepec	37		$3.06
			75.3		46.8
7	Zinapécuaro	106		$8.77
	Total	337	244.8	$27.87	152.1

A round trip first class bus between these destinations is about US$60 (virtually the same as the tolls on the highways).

The reasons are complex. Limited access highways were almost non-existent in Mexico until the late 1980's when most of the nation's principal highways were built in a gigantic effort that spanned the single 6 year term of President Carlos Salinas (one of the more corrupt presidents in recent memory). A few weeks after he left office, the peso collapsed almost 50% in a single month against the dollar. The long term maintenance contracts of the highway had to be completely renegotiated. In general Mexico doesn't have the tax revenue of USA in the '50s - '70s to build the interstate system.

As many of you know, the USA built and maintains it's interstate system primarily without directly charging the driver. There is a gasoline tax which charges city driving and intercity driving equally.

The long term lament of mass transit activists is that as long as US drivers are not obviously paying their share of the road system and as long as it paid for through general taxes there is very little incentive to ride mass transit. Mexico has probably the most elaborate and extensive bus system in the world, while it is an afterthought in the USA.

Clearly over half the country's population lives within 350 miles of Mexico City. More distant cities like Tijuana (1430 air miles to Mexico City) generate a lot more air traffic since it is over 30 hours by bus.

Do you think tolls should rise in the USA to pay for rail system (or in the short haul to encourage luxury bus transport)?

Who wants to ride trains or buses in the USA?
Decent people want to go on THEIR schedules and not be bothered with crowds of poor people on buses and trains. Any train ride would have to be atleast twice as fast than car just to be on an equal footing. Any bus ride would have to be at least three times as fast. People don't like the weirdos, winos and whackos that ride buses and they don't want to interact with some dumb rude arrogant civil-service fool of a bus driver. Often the systems are designed to be annoying. In Phoenix there are check stops where a bus waits and departs only at the scheduled time. Sure the buses all run on time... but that means you have to leave yesterday to get anywhere tomorrow. Every bus just creeps along annoying the riders but sticking to a schedule.

Why so many closely spaced toll booths in Mexico. Can't they get ONE toll pass and split the revenue?

Most roads in the USA were originally toll roads (public or private) or else were paid for by lotteries.

Quote: pacomartin

Nareed was discussing the toll prices in Mexico which are considerably higher than in the USA (even than around NYC). From Mexico City to the nearby state capital of Morelia which are less than 200 miles apart you must stop and pay 7 tolls that total 337 pesos each way (around $28). The spacing of the toll booths is often very close so you are forced to stop over and over.

Your info must be from before Jan 1st 2011, when tolls went up. I made the trip on Feb. 2nd and still have the receipts. I paid 416 pesos each way. And I guess you looked at a different route, not taking into account belt roads around Toluca and Morelia (they're both rather new), each with its own tolls.

The problem isn't just the number, but the time spent on each. Last time I spent over 10 minutes in line at Atlacomulco on the way back. The booth coming in from Toluca also sometimes backs up considerably. If I'm headed home, though, I leave for the Chamapa-La Venta highway and bypass that mess entirely.

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A round trip first class bus between these destinations is about US$60 (virtually the same as the tolls on the highways).

The bus has the same stops, but pays more in tolls. Tolls are charged depending on vehicle size and weight. Cars and light trucks pay the least, buses a lot more, and tractor-trailers pay the most. This is fair since heavier vehicles wear the road out more.

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The reasons are complex. Limited access highways were almost non-existent in Mexico until the late 1980's when most of the nation's principal highways were built in a gigantic effort that spanned the single 6 year term of President Carlos Salinas (one of the more corrupt presidents in recent memory).

He's the one whose corruption got the most exposure, but far from the most corrupt. That honor goes to Jose Lopez Portillo, better known as the dog (now a late, unlamented dog). Hey, the man robbed the banks twice, and got applause from his rubber-stamp legislature.

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A few weeks after he left office, the peso collapsed almost 50% in a single month against the dollar.

The peso then stood at around 3.50 per dollar. Now it's at 12.20 per, or nearly three and a half times more than it used to cost. Yeah, he was to blame for that devaluation, but his successor, Zedillo, handled the matter badly, too. There was no reason for the near-meltdown of 1995. But when you say on Friday the peso is strong, then devalue it on Saturday, well, any lingering confidence bolts out the window.

Anyway, the highways in mexico are lousy by US standard. Most have two lanes going each way, and only a few have three lanes. This is nevertheless a vast improvement over the two-way highways we used to live with. I wouldn't drive as far as Morelia if I had to contend with a two-way road at high speed for hundreds of kilometers.

Quote:

Do you think tolls should rise in the USA to pay for rail system (or in the short haul to encourage luxury bus transport)?

No. Train and bus tickets and freight should pay for trains and buses. If they can't there's no economic reason to keep them around.

Quote: FleaStiff

Why so many closely spaced toll booths in Mexico. Can't they get ONE toll pass and split the revenue?

It was built as a collection of tiny little toll roads. I don't know how much is automated with a transmitter in the trunk like in the USA. Pennsylvania has a toll turnpike that goes back to the 1930's, and you get a ticket and pay a different fare depending on how far you travel.

In the USA we usually speed up toll collection by only charging for one direction across bridges and tunnels. In Mexico, by law, the toll roads must parallel a free road, which is incredibly overcrowded and with lots of stops. As you can imagine with those kind of tolls, and with minimum wages under US$6 per day, most of the traffic is on the free roads. Access to free highways was seen as a way to build the post world war economy in the USA, so by and large toll roads were rejected. Most of the toll roads in the East, were toll roads before the war.

Nareed, there is a site on the Secretary of Transportation that calculates distances and tolls. I put the name of the toll booth, because I figured that it wouldn't calculate local tolls.

Quote: pacomartin

It was built as a collection of tiny little toll roads. I don't know how much is automated with a transmitter in the trunk like in the USA.

Most of them are.

Only it's not so simple. The device goes in the dash, stuck to the windshield or attached to the outside fo the car. You don't just zip through, either, but stop at a barrier in the exclusive lane, get scaned, and then the barrier goes up. You can either pre-pay or charge the tolls to a credit card.

I don't use it because the company won't spring for it, and I don't travel enough to justify paying for it myself.

Also there are different companies operating on different highways. Mex to Morelia is operated moslty by IAVE, but the Toluca portion is done by someone else. The systems are not intercompatible, either.

Quote:

Nareed, there is a site on the Secretary of Transportation that calculates distances and tolls. I put the name of the toll booth, because I figured that it wouldn't calculate local tolls.

I counted my receipts. I went through 11 toll booths each way all told. This includes the two belt roads I mentioned above (three stops), which you may be missing, and the booth at Interlomas near my place (one stop). You do seem to have the updated fares. If you take the Chamapa highway to La venta, you pay 31 pesos in the former and only 30 at La Venta rather than 62 because you bypass part of the Toluca highway (the part from Santa Fe to La Venta).

Anyway, the belt roads cut some of the total travel time, so they're worth paying for. Especially the one in Toluca. I missed it once on the way back and wound up stuck 45 minutes in Tolucan rush-hour traffic. The one in Morelia leads to the main highway faster and a lot farhter East than going the other way.

Quote: pacomartin

The spacing of the toll booths is often very close so you are forced to stop over and over.

Time to go with E-ZPass.

Hey Paco, there's a bit of an update. I drove to Acapulco and back yesterday on business. I count six stops each way, for a total charge of 540 pesos each way. That's 12 stops and 1,080 pesos round trip. according to my car's odometer, total trip length was 770 kilometers. This started at the office and ended at home, though, so I still don't know how long exactly the trip is. According to the car's chronometer, I spent 10:40 traveling, this includes heavy traffic in the city heading out and going home. Total time in Acapulco was unedr 2 hours. I think I may have seen the ocean, though, from a few blocks away.

Oh, the last portion towards Acapulco is a 2-kilometer long tunnel called Maxitunel. It was interesting.

If you want to do a comaprison to the bus, the one to pick is the Diamante service by Estrella de Oro leaving from Taxqueña.

Note to other people interested in mass transit.

Mexico has 209 cars per 1000 people, so you know how difficult they must be to afford. That rate amounts to a toll rate of 5 miles per US$1 toll, or US$92 for a one day trip. Think how radically different our culture would be with tolls like that.

Quote: pacomartin

Note to other people interested in mass transit.

Mexico has 209 cars per 1000 people, so you know how difficult they must be to afford. That rate amounts to a toll rate of 5 miles per US$1 toll, or US$92 for a one day trip. Think how radically different our culture would be with tolls like that.

Toll roads in the USA used to be considerably more expensive back in the 1950s. Check the answers.com entry on NYS Thruway for example, in real dollars it was 2-3xs what it is now. I think what happened is that in the 190s/70s they didn't remotely keep pace with inflation and we all got used to the new real prices.

Mass transit will not happen in the USA. Few people go both to and from centralized locations at regular times, and the times and locations spraw more and more. I still say the old Skybus system like they put in WVU would be one of the most likely to work. Small cars, no operators. But it would still only work to move people around town, say around a downtown like Pittsburgh or San Francisco where things are already fairly compact. But from Chicago to Cleveland? Fugheddabaddit.

Quote: AZDuffman

Mass transit will not happen in the USA.

Well we will never resemble Japan, that's for sure. But 25% of Americans live on what amounts to land area equal to 1% of the continental USA. California is not going to make it to 50 million people on the current infrastructure it has.

Here in Grand Junction buses run once an hours from 6am to 7 pm and never on Sundays, Usually requires 2 buses for people
to get anywhere. So the City used a federal grant for $100,000 to build 2 bus pull over stops on North Avenue. Only 1 bus uses that 4 lane street and traffic is so light that at busy times never more than 6-8 cars at a stop light.
Numerous complaints about upcoming fare increases, Most people willing to pay more if hours were extended. Now City got some more federal money and is building a $12 Million Dollar bus terminal. Almost all federal money and Greyhound bus will share space
but not the cost. Why should they ? Never more than 2 buses in the current garage terminal snack bar they own !
This while unemployment at over 10% and people needing transportation for jobs.

New update, or half of it. I'm in Guanajuato right now, again on business (I saw enough of the local sights years ago, thank you). I left the receipts in the car, but leaving from Interlomas (using the La venta highway) there were 6 stops. About 365 kilometers. I'll post the cost and total distance tomorrow.

Unlike most highways leaving Mex City, the Queretaro highway has no mountains to contend with. Therefore it has less curves, less steep grades, and is a lot faster; except where too many trucks congregate. But for a distabce similar to the trip to Acapulco, I covered it in about 4 hours. Not bad at all.

I'm staying overnight at the Holiday Inn express, which is very near to the offices I'll be visiting. I like this chain. The hotels seem no-frills, but are actually well appointed. there is no restaurant, except a small one which opens only for breakfast (complimentary), but there's an Applebees right outside, and they do deliver to the hotel. There's also a business center with several PCs, internet access, a printer, fax service and copy service (B&W only). There's a gym with two treadmills, a stationary bike and an ellyptical machine. Also they ahve an indoor, heated pool. All this is complimentary.

The room is of decent size, with one king bed. There's a flat screen TV with cable, a coffee maker, the usual toiletries, A/C, wirelss internet and a safe. For once I'm taking advantage of the internet access, as I borrowed a laptop from a vacationing coworker. The rate is 1,065 pesos, or around US $89 at the current exchange rate.

Oh, I forgot to say I could have skipped the last stop and toll, as there is a way to reach Guanajuato through a free road for the last leg. But the toll road lets me into the city less than two kilometers from the hotel, while the free road enters about 15 kilometers away. That would mean navigating a more complicated route, with who knows what kind of traffic. Therefore the last stop and toll.

Great city

So there is a VIP'S here somewhere!

I take it you are objecting to building unneeded bus depots when extended hours would be more useful. Well, perhaps so, but local contractors probably like the idea of the depot.
Now if you were an employer in the area would hire an employee who had to ride a bus to get to work?
And why is six am to seven pm not adequate? Just what work shifts are there which are unmet by those hours?

As promised, here's the full information:

Tolls total about 640 pesos, or around US $28. the stops are, in order:

Cuatitlan Izcalli
Tepotzotlan
Palmillas
Queretaro
Salamanca
Guanajuato

On the way back I measured the distance from the hotel to my house as 362 kilometers. I also reset the average speed meter in the car, and I got an average of 92 kph. that seems low, considering the speed limit is 110 kph and I'll usually go at 120, but there are three thigns to take into account:

1) Six toll stops. I dind't run into traffic, but they do take time
2) truck traffic. Specially around Queretaro, it's common for heavy, slow trucks to take up much of the road and slow things down. This time, right outside Queretaro, there was a minor jam where too many slow trucks were trying to pass slower trucks.
3) I hit rain four times. The last was so bad I had to slow down to 60 kph just to be able to see the road with some degree of clarity.

Oh, total trip time was about 3:40 hours. All told not bad at all. I made one stop for gas and diet coke.

As comparison, the luxury bus costs 430 pesos, or about $36 US.

So that is 226 miles in 3:40, with 6 toll stops totaling $28 one way vs $36 one way for a luxury bus.

Generally, in Mexico I found that a nice bus was less than tolls plus gas. Nothing said about the cost of the car. The economics of travel are very different than in the USA.

Correction, the trip one way is 340 pesos or so, which is about $28 US.

Quote: pacomartin

So that is 226 miles in 3:40, with 6 toll stops totaling $28 one way vs $36 one way for a luxury bus.

If you say so.

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Generally, in Mexico I found that a nice bus was less than tolls plus gas. Nothing said about the cost of the car. The economics of travel are very different than in the USA.

I filled up the tank the day before I left. I drove around a bit in Guanajuato, less than 15 clicks all told. By the time I reached the exit from Queretaro on the way back, which is about 210 kilometers from home, I had about alittle less than halfway between half and one quarter tank of gas left. I guessed that was enough to get me back, but didn't want to risk it, so I stopped and put in 200 pesos worth of gas. Let's say I used up a full tank.

This comes to about 450 pesos or so, maybe. Now, if I'd taken the bus I'd have spent about 300 pesos in cabs to and from the station, or 250 pesos for parking overnight (say a full day plus ten or eleven hours). But:

1) Buses are slower (I passed plenty of them), meaning the trip is longer, say at least 4:30 hours.
2) The traffic from the bus station is hell. In this case I arrived home around 6:30 pm. If I'd taken the bus, assuming one had left near the time I did, I'd have arrived around 7:20 pm. At that time, given usual traffic, it being a Friday and the fact it had been raining, I'd be lucky to make it back home in under an huor, more likely 80 or 90 minutes. So let's say I'd be home after 8:30 pm. I'd gladly pay the difference to avoid being stuck in traffic after a long trip.
3) Buses are non-smoking. My car isn't.