Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance
This topic has arisen in various discussions related to what it means when a casino issues a check to a player, however it is an important topic with reference to how casinos operate in general.
Casinos are very strict especially nowadays with their anti-money laundering provisions.
31 CFR § 1021.210 provides that casinos must implement anti-money laundering provisions. Allowing a check to be issued in exchange for cash, for example, is definitely not anti-money laundering!
In general, a check issued by a casino is only pursuant to a win.
This was from 1996
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1996/jun/09/laundering-laws-keep-casinos-in-check/
Nevada also bars certain transactions the Bank Secrecy Act allows. Specifically, it says casinos can't:
* Exchange more than $2,500 in cash for bills of a larger denomination.
* Issue a casino check in exchange for more than $2,500 in cash.
* Transfer more than $2,500 by wire or other means.
Again, the above were the rules in 1996.
And the rules are MUCH stricter today. Today they won't allow even one penny in cash to be converted to a casino check. For example, back in the very early 2000s people could still "money play" at the tables. Nowadays that is not allowed and only chips may be played at the tables. Just in general everything is much stricter now than it was, but even in 1996 there was no way anyone could convert any meaningful sum of cash into a check at a casino.
These are representative of the newer, stricter guidelines in place today:
https://www.americangaming.org/sites/default/files/Best%20Practice%202017.pdf
These are suggested rules for casinos, which have been adopted by nearly all Nevada casinos these days:
How does this play out in some real world examples?
1) Casino issued checks:
Bottom line:
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to receive a CHECK from a casino for cash put into action. That would be straight money laundering.
A check issued by the casino may be for only two things: (1) a return of a front money deposit made by cashier's check or bank wire, or (2) a verified win. END OF STORY. If the check is marked "Verified Win" or “Pit Winnings” it means verified win – such a notation is not placed on the check lightly, and is pursuant to the Casino’s Compliance Division. Some casinos do not bother to mark their check memos with anything at all, however, ANY check issued by a casino would be ONLY for (1) or (2) as described above.
At the cage when cashing out chips of any substantial value the cage must verify (A) that no markers (credit line instruments representing money borrowed) are owed, and (B) that the pit boss has verified the exact win. If the win is not verified the casino will not cash any chips at all, especially not high denomination ones, and will certainly not issue a check for any chips unless it verifies every penny of the win.
Yes you may “find” a 100 or even 500 chip, maybe even a 1000 chip at a high end casino, and cash it out for cash, without having to establish how you got it, but nowadays show up at the cage with thousands in chips and you are not getting anything back for those until you establish how you got them. And in any case, NO casino will issue a paper check for chips turned in at the cage unless it represents either a return of cashier’s check or wired in front money or a verified win.
2) Casino policies with reference to front money deposits.
I had a conversation with a WOV member about front money and credit and how it works as far as whether front money or credit is drawn against first when playing.
In general it is correct to say that if you have a credit line and win, and choose to deposit the winning chips at the cage, or deposit cash that you won somewhere else (another casino or say at sports book) that future draws at the tables will deduct against the front money first, and then against your line if you deplete all the front money with draws.
However what doesn’t seem to make sense, is the way the cage likes to hold on to all of your deposited chips or cash as one separate account, running a tally of what you have deposited, and a separate tally of any markers you have drawn, and then settle at the end of the trip. In other words, even though yes, in this scenario of depositing chips or cash at the cage any draws at the tables are technically drawn against front money first, still, the cage is keeping separate accounts and doesn’t like to give you your front money drawn markers back against a reduction of front money, until the end of the trip.
Let's say you have a $100K credit line and lose $50K in markers and then win $50K at another casino, come in and deposit $50K cash at the cage. Now you'd think, okay my line is clear. Now you have $50K in markers outstanding, $50K cash on deposit, and $100K available again.
However, in this instance, the casino doesn't like to give you your markers back yet, they prefer to just keep things running until the end of the trip, and settle everything then. Just the way they work.
This creates a somewhat odd situation where if you are playing at a table and lose, and want to pay off your markers with cash, the easiest way to do it, notwithstanding that it takes forever for the dealers to count it, is to pay cash at the tables. If you deposit the cash at the cage, the cage tends to want to hold both your cash – and your markers, until trip’s end.
To me, as a credit line player, getting into a situation where the casino has both your cash and your markers, doesn’t make sense to me, so in situations where I have lost at one casino, and won at the other, I either get a check from the winning casino, deposit it, get my own cashier’s check and then pay off the losing casino, or just get cash from the winning casino and give the cash at the tables of the losing casino and have them count it against my markers and give me back my markers then and there.
3) Casino acceptance of checks or bank wires
Another rule with reference to casinos is what form of checks, cashier’s checks or bank wires they will accept. Due to Compliance rules which essentially come down to anti-money laundering, casinos will accept only checks or cashier’s checks that are made out from the player himself. Banks will not issue cashier’s checks without putting down the name of the remitter, and for a casino to accept that cashier's check that remitter name must match the name of the player at the casino. Similarly incoming bank wires will be rejected unless they show as coming from the player.
In some circumstances, where the remitter of a cashier’s check or bank wire is an entity that the casino has verified as being 100% solely owned by the individual player, the casino will accept payment from that source as well.
In general these rules come down to that casinos are working hard to prevent cash from being converted to any other form of funds other than cash, and to prevent transfers of funds between individuals.
Cash in, cash out.
Check or wire in, check or wire out.
Checks only for winnings or return of check or bank wire front money.
Funds other than cash accepted only from the individual player or his solely owned entity.
And basically, no funds of any substantial amount (over $10,000 USD) accepted or credit issued until full identification of the player including, especially for U.S. players, tax identification numbers.
There is a whole related topic about when and where casinos will report cash transactions, but these reporting requirements are for CASH only – they do not apply to incoming or outgoing checks or bank wires.
FYI, read and learn, stop the dumb questions!
https://tier1fin.com/alessa/blog/money-laundering-casinos-red-flag-indicators/
Marcus Clark
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i play slots/vp and i've gotten a w2-G for any win of $1200 or more.
Most of the time i ask for a check since it's easier for me and takes almost the same amount of time for the slot attendant to return with cash or check.
i also play poker (east coast).
you get a 1099 for hitting a poker promo of $600 or more. (ie: high hand promo, bad beat jackpot)
the poker room pays you in chips.
i've never asked for a check but i've also never hit a big promo either.
(Wonder why it's a 1099 instead of w2-G?)
the bad beat jackpot is normally 5 figures, sometimes 6 figures.
if i hit that, i'm assuming since i provided ID for the 1099, i can get a check?
(i really dont want to be carrying 5figures in cash and be paranoid about people following me home)
payouts are 5figures easy and sometimes 6 figures.
do this twice a week, every week and you have a nice stack of casino checks.
Quote: 100xOdds
i also play poker (east coast).
you get a 1099 for hitting a poker promo of $600 or more. (ie: high hand promo, bad beat jackpot)
the poker room pays you in chips.
i've never asked for a check but i've also never hit a big promo either.
(Wonder why it's a 1099 instead of w2-G?)
A W-2G is for when you make a wager and win a specific amount. Place a lucky ladies bet,, win $10,000. Place a slot wager, hit a jackpot.
A 1099 is when you win something without a specific bet. Play poker, win the bad beat jackpot. Get a royal flush, win $1,000. Get a ticket for a drawing, win a car.
ZCore13
A question as to where you got the money to pay $500 a spin might come up. If you are using a card there would be a record of your activity, if you are gaming enough at that level there's a chance they could file a SAR on you. Not using a card at that level might be a red flag. You are also giving up whatever the machines holds with a ton of variance.Quote: 100xOddsNow that im thinking about the topic, whats to stop someone from going into the high limit slots area and playing $500/spin to launder $?
payouts are 5figures easy and sometimes 6 figures.
do this twice a week, every week and you have a nice stack of casino checks.
Quote: AxelWolfA question as to where you got the money to pay $500 a spin might come up. If you are using a card there would be a record of your activity, if you are gaming enough at that level there's a chance they could file a SAR on you. Not using a card at that level might be a red flag. You are also giving up whatever the machines holds with a ton of variance.
If you don't create a log the IRS will count each jackpot as your profit and not allow for losses, correct?
So you just say the first jackpot was your first spin ($500 is not a huge amount) and you got lucky. Then it financed your further gambling.
Of course the IRS can then say what about the spins you didn't win but if that's where they are going then they have to accept your logs or lack thereof and get less taxes as a result.
Funny, I don't see them doing that.
As for not using a player card it's an option they give even at that level and with winning Jackpots and having to show ID, I don't see why a red flag would go up. You obviously are not hiding. You just are a high roller who doesn't give a damn about comps. Actually saves them promo expenditures
They realized this was a way for them to cash in their small denomination bills by hiring smurfs for a few bucks an hour stuffing the money into the machines. The next part was ingenious. They recruited a couple of small-time horse trainers into their scheme.
The trainers would list a horse in a race later in the week. The smurfs would pump the money into the machines and before the race, the horse would scratch and the tickets would be refunded in nice clean big bills.
It seems like a lot of work but the days of walking into a bank and depositing duffle bags full of twenties are long gone.
Perhaps the setup involved, Business licenses, accounting, banking, risk of being audited and things not making sense.Quote: billryanWhy would anyone try to launder money thru a casino when there are literally thousands of small businesses that have far fewer eyes on them and don't have state regulators all over them.?
I think a mid to high-level poker player persona could be a solution. I have only been asked for my information one time while buying chips, and never when cashing out chips.
People buy chips off each other right at the table all the time and it doesn't seem like anyone is keeping track of that.
I guess it all comes down to how much money and how often you need to launder and what kind of time you want to spend doing it.
I also seem to recall some lines from Scarface:
10% on the first million in denominations of twenty
8% on ten dollar bills
6% on fives
i.e. that when it comes to money laundering, smaller bills are easier to rinse than larger....
In any case, Money laundering is converting cash into some form other than cash i.e. getting it into the bank, and casinos will not payout at table games in checks other than for winnings.
I don't play slots but are people saying that a person may sit there in front of a slot machine sliding in paper money, and then if he wins receive a check for the winnings? That makes sense in that the check is just for the winnings, but it doesn't seem like much in the way of money laundering in that (1) slot machines are losers, (2) the recipient must receive a W-2 G for any significant win and identify himself fully.
Over all, yes, if someone is willing to accept the loss I suppose casinos will convert cash to check IF you win, but still - the check is issued only for the winning portion.
Quote: MDawgConverting small bills into larger ones is something, but it's still just cash. It's not like the smaller bills had some sort of inherent stigma attached to them that made them ostensibly different from the larger bills.
I also seem to recall some lines from Scarface:
10% on the first million in denominations of twenty
8% on ten dollar bills
6% on fives
i.e. that when it comes to money laundering, smaller bills are easier to rinse than larger....
In any case, Money laundering is converting cash into some form other than cash i.e. getting it into the bank, and casinos will not payout at table games in checks other than for winnings.
I don't play slots but are people saying that a person may sit there in front of a slot machine sliding in paper money, and then if he wins receive a check for the winnings? That makes sense in that the check is just for the winnings, but it doesn't seem like much in the way of money laundering in that (1) slot machines are losers, (2) the recipient must receive a W-2 G for any significant win and identify himself fully.
Over all, yes, if someone is willing to accept the loss I suppose casinos will convert cash to check IF you win, but still - the check is issued only for the winning portion.
What is being said about say $500 denom slots is the intent is to play cash in and win Jackpots.
If you wager $5 and win $15 it's no big deal. Same game, same symbols same potential win @ $500 a spin means a $1500 win and a jackpot. Simply because you are playing a high denom.
You would get paid in check or cash, that doesn't matter. What matters is the W2G. And yes, you would have to identify yourself but that's the point!
I have one hundred fifty grand from drug money. I want to buy a car. I go play slots and Walk out after just a day or two with proof I won $120,000 (that's assuming a 20% loss from variance. You could get lucky and actually win money) and now when I plunk down money on that car and the IRS asks where it came from, here you go, my W2-G!
EDIT:. At $500 a spin it takes very little to earn Jackpot s since just winning 2/12 times wager triggers one but you eventually will hit some really big wins. A bonus round for example with free spins could give you tens of thousands.
I have played $200 per spin and won as much as twenty grand on a single bonus round and that wasn't even full symbols on any of my wins.
Play $100/coin 9/6 Jacks and you can get a casino check without really winning but it still qualifies as a win.
I dont play baccarat but it seems to me that if you also just break even you'd also qualify for a check that says "winnings." Just like in video poker.
Quote: darkozI have one hundred fifty grand from drug money. I want to buy a car. I go play slots and Walk out after just a day or two with proof I won $120,000 (that's assuming a 20% loss from variance. You could get lucky and actually win money) and now when I plunk down money on that car and the IRS asks where it came from, here you go, my W2-G!
However, how do you get the $150,000. cash into the casino for play in the first place without being reported with a CTR, which is issued for any deposit or withdrawal of 10000 or more per 24 hours, or a SAR, if you try to structure it into there a little bit at a time? Then if the Treasury Dept. sees that inflow of cash they are going to weigh it against the W2-G for winnings.
When an anonymous or even non-anonymous player tries to stay under the radar, whether at slots or table games, and is careful to keep his cash in/out flows under 10K per 24 hours, is he guilty of structuring?
Quote: AlanMendelsonI dont play baccarat but it seems to me that if you also just break even you'd also qualify for a check that says "winnings." Just like in video poker.
This comes down to not understanding how things work.
If you arrive at the table with $10,000. cash buy in, and leave with $10,000. in chips you are not getting a check for anything. No win - no check.
Quote: MDawgConverting small bills into larger ones is something, but it's still just cash. It's not like the smaller bills had some sort of inherent stigma attached to them that made them ostensibly different from the larger bills.
Money laundering is converting cash into some form other than cash i.e. getting it into the bank, and casinos will not payout at table games in checks other than for winnings.
I don't play slots but are people saying that a person may sit there in front of a slot machine sliding in paper money, and then if he wins receive a check for the winnings? That makes sense in that the check is just for the winnings, but it doesn't seem like much in the way of money laundering in that (1) slot machines are losers, (2) the recipient must receive a W-2 G for any significant win and identify himself fully.
Over all, yes, if someone is willing to accept the loss I suppose casinos will convert cash to check IF you win, but still - the check is issued only for the winning portion.
There are numerous ways to get a check from a casino.
I have had at least 100 checks issued to me from casinos, not including jackpot winners.
I had so many checks issued to me at one group of casinos that they finally called me to ask to come in and explain what was up before they would issue me my pending checks. I did explain, they were happy with my explanation and just asked me to limit getting checks to x per month since with was causing extra work for their accounting department. If people are wondering why I was doing that, I'm just going to say that it was nothing nefarious, it was just a +EV situation, and I will leave it at that.
You can get checks issued from casinos without losing or winning a penny.
You can get a check issued in an amount for MORE than you actually won.
FYI, If you are laundering money in a casino, you probably want the W-2 G to identify you.
Quote: MDawgHowever, how do you get the $150,000. cash into the casino for play in the first place without being reported with a CTR, which is issued for any deposit or withdrawal of 10000 or more, or a SAR, if you try to structure it into there a little bit at a time? Then if the Treasury Dept. sees that inflow of cash they are going to weigh it against the W2-G for winnings.
When an anonymous or even non-anonymous player tries to stay under the radar, whether at slots or table games, and is careful to keep his cash in/out flows under 10K per 24 hours, is he guilty of structuring?
You don't need $150,000 in the slots. You just need $500.
Of course you probably won't win that first spin but if you actually lose $150,000 before your first single w2g I would suggest it's not working.
What actually will most likely happen is you lose a few grand before getting your first jackpot. And then you can just say you took that money and kept playing (which is almost certainly going to be the truth anyway. Most people pump it back.)
You are obviously paying taxes on your W2-G wins so if the IRS wants to now subtract the losses then they are basically screwing themselves aren't they?
And of course, you don't have to start with $500 slots. You can start with $100 slots and work your way up. Any money you are gambling is from previous Jackpots you have won. Highly doubtful the IRS asks where you got a couple hundred bucks
YES.Quote: MDawg
When an anonymous or even non-anonymous player tries to stay under the radar, whether at slots or table games, and is careful to keep his cash in/out flows under 10K per 24 hours, is he guilty of structuring?
And anyone at this forum who plays at a casino TODAY (not years ago) should be able to verify this first hand.
Quote: MDawgIf you inflow over 10K cash over a 24 hour period into the casino it must be reported. Which then begs the question of where the cash came from in the first place. Your example doesn't solve anything, does it?
I can tell you now that you are one hundred percent wrong.
I regularly gamble $200 a spin sometimes being down twenty or thirty grand and have had as high as $70,000 in W2-G reporting in a single day. I usually go after Must Hits in this manner.
I have played this way at a number of Casinos. I have never been asked to prove where my money originated from and the IRS is only too happy to accept my tax returns at the end of the year.
When I file my returns there is nothing but W2-G documents. I don't work a regular job. Neither my accountant nor the IRS seems to have a problem with this
Quote: billryanScarface took place long before the Federals got serious about money laundering. While I'm sure that there are a few rogue operations out there, most banks would not allow you to bring in duffles of cash. Heck, many modern banks don't have vaults big enough to store that kind of cash.
Agreed!
I was just using it as an example that supposedly smaller bills are easier (charged less by the money launderers) to rinse than larger.
Quote: darkozI can tell you now that you are one hundred percent wrong.
I regularly gamble $200 a spin sometimes being down twenty or thirty grand and have had as high as $70,000 in W2-G reporting in a single day. I usually go after Must Hits in this manner.
I have played this way at a number of Casinos. I have never been asked to prove where my money originated from and the IRS is only too happy to accept my tax returns at the end of the year.
When I file my returns there is nothing but W2-G documents. I don't work a regular job. Neither my accountant nor the IRS seems to have a problem with this
CTR / SAR are not issued to the player. They are filed secretly with the Dept. of Treasury. You wouldn't know if one had been filed on you, and their filing is mandatory.
Your example was of a drug dealer. I assume you file as some sort of professional gambler so the IRS figures your cash originated from gambling. And from your story, you started with little and built your way up.
The drug dealer example you gave suddenly has $150K in unreported cash! Surely you must understand that for that guy, after the CTRs or SARs are filed against his massive inflow at the casinos, the government is not going to accept that he won whatever from the W2-G legitimately. In other words, you example of a drug dealer arriving at the casino with a sack of of cash and rinsing it without being detected is not on point.
Most of the time on slots they are not paying attention or keeping track of that.Quote: MDawgIf you inflow over 10K cash over a 24 hour period into the casino it must be reported. Which then begs the question of where the cash came from in the first place. Your example doesn't solve anything, does it?
Someone could easily hit up a bunch of different casinos while playing machines and generate a bunch of W2G's at a very low cost with little or no variance.
There are machines where you can simply put in bills and then cash out and then get a hand pay. They shouldn't issue you a W2G for this, but I have had to fight them to not give me a W2G for accumulated credits. Obviously, that isn't the standard, but if you really wanted to, you would be able to find enough places that would do this.
You can fit one million dollars in $100s in a carry-on bag. that weighs 20 pounds.
A million dollars in $20 bills weighs over a hundred pounds and fills two large suitcases
The same amount in $10 bills weighs two hundred pounds and fills four large bags
If it were all in $5 bills, it would be four hundred pounds and fill eight large suitcases.
Quote: MDawgCTR / SAR are not issued to the player. They are filed secretly with the Dept. of Treasury. You wouldn't know if one had been filed on you, and their filing is mandatory.
Your example was of a drug dealer. I assume you file as some sort of professional gambler so the IRS figures your cash originated from gambling. And from your story, you started with little and built your way up.
The drug dealer example you gave suddenly has $150K in unreported cash! Surely you must understand that for that guy, after the CTRs or SARs are filed against his massive inflow at the casinos, the government is not going to accept that he won whatever from the W2-G legitimately. In other words, you example of a drug dealer arriving at the casino with a sack of of cash and rinsing it without being detected is not on point.
Regardless if would not take much to "build" your way up even as a drug dealer.
I don't understand why you have a problem with the $150,000 concept at the slots. It's not uncommon for someone with just 1,000 to make ten thousand dollars in wagers.
No drug dealer NEEDS to show up with $150,000. I don't understand why you keep insisting on that.
He only needs about ten grand probably and will hit his first jackpot. By the end of the day he probably never had more than ten grand in cash at any one time but kept feeding in his wins ALL THE WHILE RACKING UP $150,000 IN W-2G documents. All this while his actual $150,000 from drug dealing is stashed at home or wherever he keeps it
The last thing he wants is to appear on the radar, and whether via CTR, SAR or W2-G, suddenly he becomes a known entity.
Take a look at the original post, the Nevada casino rules from 1996, even, and then the current ones.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/#post813352
None of that sounds money launderer friendly.
Quote: MDawgA drug dealer who has a vast sum in unreported cash is not going to get away with rinsing it at a casino. It's absurd to think that he could.
I knew if I waited long enough, you'd finally post something I can agree with.
Are we talking about laundering or turning small bills into big ones?Quote: billryanI knew if I waited long enough, you'd finally post something I can agree with.
This was from 1996
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1996/jun/09/laundering-laws-keep-casinos-in-check/
Nevada also bars certain transactions the Bank Secrecy Act allows. Specifically, it says casinos can't:
* Exchange more than $2,500 in cash for bills of a larger denomination.
* Issue a casino check in exchange for more than $2,500 in cash.
* Transfer more than $2,500 by wire or other means.
Again, the above were the rules in 1996.
And the rules are MUCH stricter today.
Quote: MDawgA drug dealer who has a vast sum in unreported cash is not going to get away with rinsing it at a Nevada casino. Not these days. It's absurd to think that he could.
The last thing he wants is to appear on the radar, and whether via CTR, SAR or W2-G, suddenly he becomes a known entity.
Take a look at the original post, the Nevada casino rules from 1996, even, and then the current ones.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/#post813352
None of that sounds money launderer friendly.
Well I don't gamble in Vegas.
But where I do gamble I have never been asked where my money comes from.
I certainly wouldn't say using other people players cards lol.
They can make up whatever strict laws, regulations, prevention methods, special divisions, and task-forces they want, that doesn't mean it's going to prevent it from happening on grand scales. You know, like how the war on drugs actually prevented drugs.Quote: MDawgFrom the original post:
This was from 1996
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1996/jun/09/laundering-laws-keep-casinos-in-check/
Nevada also bars certain transactions the Bank Secrecy Act allows. Specifically, it says casinos can't:
* Exchange more than $2,500 in cash for bills of a larger denomination.
Carolina
* Issue a casino check in exchange for more than $2,500 in cash.
* Transfer more than $2,500 by wire or other means.
Again, the above were the rules in 1996.
And the rules are MUCH stricter today.
Quote: AxelWolfAre we talking about laundering or turning small bills into big ones?
The absurdity of drug dealers using casinos for money laundering.
Quote: darkozI can tell you now that you are one hundred percent wrong.
I regularly gamble $200 a spin sometimes being down twenty or thirty grand and have had as high as $70,000 in W2-G reporting in a single day. I usually go after Must Hits in this manner.
I have played this way at a number of Casinos. I have never been asked to prove where my money originated from and the IRS is only too happy to accept my tax returns at the end of the year.
When I file my returns there is nothing but W2-G documents. I don't work a regular job. Neither my accountant nor the IRS seems to have a problem with this
Any player that the casino floor has their id, dob and SS number, will automatically file the forms with no notice or communication with the player. $10,000.00 WITHIN a 24 hour period. The first time an unrated player, non id'd is stopped for hitting the 10k limit (if not SAR) the casino personnel usually approaches with the government form. That is commonly interpreted that all future filings will be the same way, but they are not.
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
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You might want to do some research on that.Quote: billryanThe absurdity of drug dealers using casinos for money laundering.
I've read quite a few articles about large-scale money laundering using casinos.
you can start this headline...
River Rock casino accepted $13M in $20s in a month.
That's 13 MILLION in 20's people were getting away with.
You guys are confusing what the casinos are supposed to be doing and what they are actually doing. Sure, they do it often and some casinos are more diligent, but I think the percentage is very low on how often and what is actually getting reported.Quote: Marcusclark66Any player that the casino floor has their id, dob and SS number, will automatically file the forms with no notice or communication with the player. $10,000.00 WITHIN a 24 hour period. The first time an unrated player, non id'd is stopped for hitting the 10k limit (if not SAR) the casino personnel usually approaches with the government form. That is commonly interpreted that all future filings will be the same way, but they are not.
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications
Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
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Baccarat Winning Session Record: 6 out of 6 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session
Quote: Marcusclark66Any player that the casino floor has their id, dob and SS number, will automatically file the forms with no notice or communication with the player. $10,000.00 WITHIN a 24 hour period. The first time an unrated player, non id'd is stopped for hitting the 10k limit (if not SAR) the casino personnel usually approaches with the government form. That is commonly interpreted that all future filings will be the same way, but they are not.
Marcus Clark
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Baccarat Winning Session Record: 6 out of 6 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session
So player puts $2000 into slot. Loses $1900.
Wins $1900 jackpot
Puts $1900 back in slot.
Repeat that four times.
He has to explain to the IRS where he got $10,000 even though he only walked in with $2000?
Quote: billryanWhy would anyone try to launder money thru a casino when there are literally thousands of small businesses that have far fewer eyes on them and don't have state regulators all over them.?
A friend told me they were at an AC casino and saw someone putting bills into various machines and cashing out without playing.
He (probably drunkenly) went up to him and asked him where the laundromat was. The guy said nothing and left immediately.
Quote: MDawgFrom the original post:
This was from 1996
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1996/jun/09/laundering-laws-keep-casinos-in-check/
Nevada also bars certain transactions the Bank Secrecy Act allows. Specifically, it says casinos can't:
* Exchange more than $2,500 in cash for bills of a larger denomination.
* Issue a casino check in exchange for more than $2,500 in cash.
* Transfer more than $2,500 by wire or other means.
Again, the above were the rules in 1996.
And the rules are MUCH stricter today.
Different states add their own to be in compliance. I will tell you most of the Midwest casinos dropped that $2,500.00 number to a much lower level, like $300 and $500, especially on paper money exchange, smaller to larger.
Marcus Clark
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Baccarat Winning Session Record: 6 out of 6 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session
Quote: darkozSo player puts $2000 into slot. Loses $1900.
Wins $1900 jackpot
Puts $1900 back in slot.
Repeat that four times.
He has to explain to the IRS where he got $10,000 even though he only walked in with $2000?
No, first time a non id'd player hits the threshold, he is asked for id. If he fails to give, his play is stopped. As far as where the money came from, the casino will not and does not ask.
And yes, all cash transactions are counted. Green cash from the player and yes, if he won it on the slots, cashed out and then bought in again. That counts towards the $10k.
Marcus Clark
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Baccarat Winning Session Record: 6 out of 6 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session
He was probably up to something else. Other than turning small bills into large ones, there is no good reason to do this. There has to be an easier way to turn small bills into big ones.Quote: gamerfreakA friend told me they were at an AC casino and saw someone putting bills into various machines and cashing out without playing.
He (probably drunkenly) went up to him and asked him where the laundromat was. The guy said nothing and left immediately.
I'm fairly certain there are places that will sell you precious metals without reporting if it's under 10k, and they will probably take your 20's.
I'm sure guys buying and selling crypto will take small bills.
Or with what someone who works in the industry like MarcusClark66 says.
Then we have someone like AxelWolf who comments, "I'm sure people are getting away with something." Or talks about how millions in cash go through casinos. What's the relevance? I see people dump hundreds of thousands in bills into the slot at Baccarat tables. Doesn't mean they aren't being identified and reported for it. Every time I see any significant cash dropped the pit boss demands a player card or ID, and if the player is not fully identified including with SSN his cash over any significant amount is not accepted.
I can see someone dropping some hundreds into a slot machine without identifying himself, but $150,000. (DarkOz's figure)? without being CTR'ed/SAR'ed or identifying himself? No way.
Quote: MDawgI'd go with what someone like me who is actually playing at the tables knows and said. No win - no check.
Or with what someone who works in the industry like MarcusClark66 says.
Then we have someone like AxelWolf who comments, "I'm sure people are getting away with something." Or talks about how millions in cash go through casinos. What's the relevance? I see people dump hundreds of thousands in bills into the slot at Baccarat tables. Doesn't mean they aren't being identified and reported for it. Every time I see any significant cash dropped the pit boss demands a player card or ID, and if the player is not fully identified including with SSN his cash over any significant amount is not accepted.
Maybe you should play the, “Someone who knows,” card with a person who isn’t a professional gambler.
By the way, haven’t some hosts gotten high-end clients blow and hoes before? I want to say that those things are illegal.
Or, I guess I could submit to the notion that Commercial Casinos, the paragons of social responsibility, moral integrity and honesty that they undoubtedly are, do things by the book 100% of the time.
Allegedly.Quote: MDawg
Or with what someone who works in the industry like MarcusClark66 says.
Anyways, I was not talking about table games.
When I say "casino winnings" I mean that casino winnings were the ACTUAL trigger for the audit.
I've been audited twice. Once for the big daddy of audits, the Taxpayer Compliance Measurement Program audit. The second time it was an audit when I sold my Internet company -- and that was the same year I had $2.6-Million in W2Gs.
In BOTH cases the auditors did not even look at my casino records. When my accountant asked why they were ignored the auditors responded "our position is no one has a profit from casinos."
So again, has anyone here ever had a casino-triggered audit?
Quote: gamerfreakA friend told me they were at an AC casino and saw someone putting bills into various machines and cashing out without playing.
He (probably drunkenly) went up to him and asked him where the laundromat was. The guy said nothing and left immediately.
I'm sure criminals love working in an environment where cameras capture their every move.
Quote: AxelWolfAnyways, I was not talking about table games.
I assume AxelWolf knows much more about slots than I do. I play table games only.
But still, everything everyone has said to this point still points to that must win even at slots to get a check.
And yes, I agree, it makes perfect sense that the casino wouldn't run right up and demand ID and SSN from every person who is dropping cash into a slot machine, but anyone who is dropping serious cash into a machine would eventually be identified, either through CTR/SAR for incoming, or W2-G for outgoing, or both.
It's not just slots I was talking about(this would include poker and other things), but I get your point.Quote: MDawgI assume AxelWolf knows much more about slots than I do. I play table games only.
Using words like IMPOSSIBLE when talking about certain things seems a bit overstated.
Quote: MDawgI assume AxelWolf knows much more about slots than I do. I play table games only.
But still, everything everyone has said to this point still points to that must win even at slots to get a check.
And yes, I agree, it makes perfect sense that the casino wouldn't run right up and demand ID and SSN from every person who is dropping cash into a slot machine, but anyone who is dropping serious cash would eventually be identified, either through CTR/SAR for incoming, or W2-G for outgoing.
No, it doesn’t point to that. You could ask for a check if you had a win that would result in a W2-G, even if you were down for the day, and you would probably get it. If someone was playing without a card, how would the casino know whether or not the person is up or down for the day? Even what the card says might not necessarily be correct.
Anyway, you should have stopped at, “I assume AW knows much more about slots than I do.”
Imagine a player putting in 20’s who switched machines a lot. Do you REALLY believe that it would even be possible to keep track of that for every player on the floor?
I’m not saying they make ZERO effort to track it. Here are some things they do.
1. W2-G (Hit of $1,200+) automatic.
2. Some machines will, “Lock up,” if certain amounts are hit that do not result in a W2-G. $1,000 is common. I’ve heard $500 before, but have never had that happen to me.
3. Some machines will, “Lock up,” when the accumulated credits on a machine add up to a particular amount, or more. I’ve personally seen $1,500 on this, but I’ve had machines accumulate more than that at a different casino without locking up.
So, there you go. But, a player feeding $20 at a time who doesn’t hit anything big and at least sometimes switches machines? Nope. I would say they’d generally have no idea how much that player was up or down.
Do you think surveillance comes in to switch shifts and exchanges physical descriptions of every single slot player and how much up or down they are?
Anyway, you guys are mostly just talking past each other, but at least you both seem to realize that now, to some extent.
