We are Americans*

Thoughts?

can we have a healthy conversation without some one getting banned?

The one thing that we have been very good at is avoiding this issue. I have my opinions on it but this comment is more about the process than the problem. Trying to solve the whole problem in one piece of legislation will likely not work because there will be enough opposition to one or more parts of the bill that it will be unable to pass and/or be signed into law.

I'd rather have the Congress start addressing the issue in steps that they can agree on and then fight over the issues where they cannot come to an agreement.

First, close the door. Tight. I'm not talking about a fence or a mine field or anything like that--I am talking about a policy...for example, "If you come in illegally after this date, you will never be allowed to apply for lawful residence or citizenship"...

After that, address the myriad of issues that result from millions upon millions of illegal immigrants.

I know this is contrary from the way Congress (and Presidents) WANT to do things; they ALL want "my way or the highway"...

I've always thought a good first step would be allowing illegals to enlist in the military in exchange for amnesty. Dependents (anyone, really) would be allowed within reason... so like you couldn't include a dozen family members but your wife and parents would be fine. The number isn't important, I still believe in the core concept.

Quote: RonC

First, close the door. Tight. I'm not talking about a fence or a mine field or anything like that--I am talking about a policy...for example, "If you come in illegally after this date, you will never be allowed to apply for lawful residence or citizenship"...

Great idea ... assuming illegal immigrands WANT to become citizens.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Great idea ... assuming illegal immigrands WANT to become citizens.

What a tremendous point of view. It never occurs to people that this is probably true.

I don't think we need new rules, I think we need our law enforcement agencies to enforce the laws we do have. There are cities all over this country that openly defy deportation laws like LA, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Philly and many many others. I am all for allowing citizens of other countries to become American citizens. My wife's parents came over here from Italy in 1970. I also think, as with many things the government does, is they have to make the process to immigrate simpler as the waiting lists to do that are astronomical and there really isn't any incentive to do it the right way.

Quote: Gabes22

I don't think we need new rules, I think we need our law enforcement agencies to enforce the laws we do have.

We do not have the politicians with the backbone to make this a reality.

I agree, so what makes you think they will have the backbone to enforce the new ones? I think any new legislation is merely of the feel good variety. There is no doubt that there has been a criminal element brought to America via illegal aliens, just ask any cop about MS-13, however there are also people who are just looking to make a living and are good decent human beings. Where people sit on this issue is whether they think the good outweighs the bad or the bad outweighs the good.

My first thought is that we have to accept the fact that for the most part "Illegal Alien" = "Mexican." Way back in the movie "Born in East LA" they stated that the border patrol broke it into just 2 groups being "Mexicans" and "OTMs" meaing other-than-mexicans. There are spurts from other places, but illegal immigration is mostly a illegal mexican problem.

The next good point is the "do they want to become citizens?" comment. Stratfor.com has talked about this. In the past, immigrants came from Europe or some other place, mostly by sea, and if they ever returned home at all it was in their twilight years to see the old place for a vacation. They willingly dropped everything in their old life, mostly forever. They tried to blend into the new country and culture. Sure they kept some old customs, oldedr folk had a hard time with English. But they did not demand bilingual education and other things to keep their "old" way of life.

As Stratfor describes it, the USA southwest is a "borderland" where the two cultures straddle an undefined area in many ways but not politically. Even after the Mexican Cession there was travel between the two places, albiet with Mexicans coming here more than the other way around. New Mexico was broken out as a state because there was such a Mexican influence it was felt it would be better than tacking it to TX/AZ. Borderlands exist all over the world, sometimes they change hands many times. Think Alsace and Lorraine. It is French-German but for now in French hands. Looking at the EU today it is not a stretch to see it go German again ovedr the years, maybe 20-50.

But the important thing is that in these places, people travel back and forth but have no intenton of switching their allegience or even staying for a long time. Mexicans in the USA are often the same. Sure, some want out of the drug-war-wasteland that are some parts of Mexico, but many just want to come and work, then go home for some extended period of time after the current hardship passes. When you emmigrate to a new country, unless you are very highly skilled, your employment level will probably fall below your skill level. This is logical in that you have no network. Even within a country this can happen. Imagine you were an accountant and moved to Vegas for a new life after your divorce. When you hit the ground you take what is available. Maybe you end up a dealer at El Cortez while you wait and look for a new accounting job. But if you go home you know 5 places that would take you. Same will happen for Mexicans here. Might be a semi-skilled position in Mexico among family and friends. But it pays less than picking lettuce or being a waiter in the USA. So you take the temp work in the USA, send money back, then one day return.

The other issue is never before has the USA had one culture so domminant an immigrant cutlure than it almost infringes on the status quo. Sure we had more net immigrants 1880-1930, but they were divided amongst manyh groups. Irish balanced out Itallians. Germans balanced out Poles. To live your life in your own neighborhood among your own people was to never leave your block. Today in a "sanctuary city" to live in your own group is to easily survive in a major metro area.

The big problem is politicians have put too much at stake to do anything about the problem. Cities get federal aid for anyone in a school or public housing so they are not turned away. Low-skill employers like the labor pool. Inner-city businesses like charging to send money and sell prepaid phone cards along with other items. And liberals anb the media have made "reaching out to hispanics" synonomous with thinking illegal immigration should be unlimited. Until this last one is confronted the issue will get worse and worse.

New Policy

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/report-white-house-halt-deportation-young-illegal-immigrants-133800284.html

Quote: only1choice

New Policy

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/report-white-house-halt-deportation-young-illegal-immigrants-133800284.html

A completely political move. If this President really BELIEVED that this was the best policy for the country, he would not have waited until a few months before the election to announce this new policy.

i can't believe obama would politicize the office of the presidency like that.
this must be the first time in history a president has done that.
he must be really desperate to get re-elected.
no other president has ever been desperate to be re-elected.

Quote: WongBo

i can't believe obama would politicize the office of the presidency like that.
this must be the first time in history a president has done that.
he must be really desperate to get re-elected.
no other president has ever been desperate to be re-elected.

I so agree with you...they are ALL desperate to stay in office as are the people in Congress...they want to live high off of your dime. Republicans, Democrats, all of them...except maybe a very few...

This President is more desperate than most. We can disagree on that, of course, but that is my opinion after watching what is going on and studying reports from a variety of outlets.

"People under 30 who entered the country illegally or overstayed their visas when they were under the age of 16 will be immune from deportation if they have not committed a significant misdemeanor or felony and have graduated from a U.S. high school or joined the military."

While I realize that the school systems are not checking on immigration status (which I think is a mistake), is the military really not doing background checks on those who enlist? Wouldn't they know that a new recruit is an illegal immigrant?

Quote: Paradigm

"People under 30 who entered the country illegally or overstayed their visas when they were under the age of 16 will be immune from deportation if they have not committed a significant misdemeanor or felony and have graduated from a U.S. high school or joined the military."

While I realize that the school systems are not checking on immigration status (which I think is a mistake), is the military really not doing background checks on those who enlist? Wouldn't they know that a new recruit is an illegal immigrant?

Unless they have radically changed the rules in the last 10 years, the policy was that only those with a green card, or approved for a green card, were allowed to enter the military. Each applicant had to provide proof of birth and, if not born in the US, of their status...

Quote: Paradigm

While I realize that the school systems are not checking on immigration status (which I think is a mistake), is the military really not doing background checks on those who enlist? Wouldn't they know that a new recruit is an illegal immigrant?

One of my favorite lines from "The Simpsons" is when Homer enrolls in the military. The recruiter goes around telling assignments (all of which are Front Line Infantry), and to the minor celebrities there who think they'll be doing promo videos the recruiter says, "You know where you'll get good footage? Front line infantry."

To all the immigrants who are fighting for our country, I'm pretty sure the recruiter is saying, "Front Line Infantry. Front Line Infantry."

Quote: AZDuffman

But the important thing is that in these places, people travel back and forth but have no intenton of switching their allegience or even staying for a long time. Mexicans in the USA are often the same. Sure, some want out of the drug-war-wasteland that are some parts of Mexico, but many just want to come and work, then go home for some extended period of time after the current hardship passes. When you emmigrate to a new country, unless you are very highly skilled, your employment level will probably fall below your skill level. This is logical in that you have no network. Even within a country this can happen. Imagine you were an accountant and moved to Vegas for a new life after your divorce. When you hit the ground you take what is available. Maybe you end up a dealer at El Cortez while you wait and look for a new accounting job. But if you go home you know 5 places that would take you. Same will happen for Mexicans here. Might be a semi-skilled position in Mexico among family and friends. But it pays less than picking lettuce or being a waiter in the USA. So you take the temp work in the USA, send money back, then one day return.

Pardon me for asking, but is the part I put in bold a significant part of the problem - that the money ends up in other countries?

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: AZDuffman

But the important thing is that in these places, people travel back and forth but have no intenton of switching their allegience or even staying for a long time. Mexicans in the USA are often the same. Sure, some want out of the drug-war-wasteland that are some parts of Mexico, but many just want to come and work, then go home for some extended period of time after the current hardship passes. When you emmigrate to a new country, unless you are very highly skilled, your employment level will probably fall below your skill level. This is logical in that you have no network. Even within a country this can happen. Imagine you were an accountant and moved to Vegas for a new life after your divorce. When you hit the ground you take what is available. Maybe you end up a dealer at El Cortez while you wait and look for a new accounting job. But if you go home you know 5 places that would take you. Same will happen for Mexicans here. Might be a semi-skilled position in Mexico among family and friends. But it pays less than picking lettuce or being a waiter in the USA. So you take the temp work in the USA, send money back, then one day return.

Pardon me for asking, but is the part I put in bold a significant part of the problem - that the money ends up in other countries?

It does and could be described as a "hidden trade deficit."

Quote: only1choice

New Policy

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/report-white-house-halt-deportation-young-illegal-immigrants-133800284.html

more info regarding this.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/watch-live-obama-explains-decision-legalize-young-illegal-165949610.html

It would appear to me that, companies hiring people without the right to work in the US are your problem. Stop hiring people without the legal ability to work. Of course, this may have knock on effects on the ability to hire people at a wage point that allows you to be competitive, but that's a problem I am sure would resolve itself one way or another.

I hope all those worried about illegal immigrants in the US are performing adequate checks on their employees have the legal right to work in the US.

I know for my area I had to prove residency and legality to work in Canada, but I'm not working in a minimum wage service or manual labour sector. I know the one person I pay money to directly in that sector is legal to work in Canada.

Quote: thecesspit

Stop hiring people without the legal ability to work.

Why?

Consider this:

In normal economic times, the US has no problem absorbing millions of ilelgal immigrant workers, perhaps tens of millions.

Why?

The only reason I can think of is that there is a labor shortage in times of low unemployment.

If this is so, then why does the US keep to a Byzantine, time-consuming, complex and expensive immigration system? All that does is increase the numbers of people entering ilelgaly. If you try to use the door and are told to spend a small fortune and come back ina few years, you'll try the backdoor. That's also expensive, or can be, but it takes days at most.

Take a look at what's required for legal immigration. If standards half as harsh were imposed on people born within America's borders, you'd have to expel well over half the popualtion.

Quote: P90

Why?

Well if illegal immigration is a problem, which I am told it appears to be, and they cannot legally work in the US... surely they shouldn't be hired as it is illegal for them to work, and by hiring them you are allowing them to do something illegal.

Seems obvious to me, but maybe I am missing something...

But you didn't say anything new. We already know that illegal immigration is illegal.

Is your sole point that we shouldn't do things that are illegal? Now that deserves interrupting regular TV programming on all channels. I'd throw in a few Thunderbolts per city for good measure.

Quote: P90

But you didn't say anything new. We already know that illegal immigration is illegal.

Is your sole point that we shouldn't do things that are illegal? Now that deserves interrupting regular TV programming on all channels. I'd throw in a few Thunderbolts per city for good measure.

:) Well, yes.. I guess it is bloody obvious, but it strikes me that if illegal immigrants are coming here and finding work, it's not the immigrants who may be the problem, but the people employing them?

There is a deeper-rooted issue here though.
What right, aside from might alone, do modern Americans have to decide who is a legal immigrant and who an illegal one?

Everyone in the United States today, more precisely almost everyone, came as an immigrant or was born to a line of such. These earlier immigrants didn't have a visa, a permit, anything of the sort. Some were convicted here, more came on their own accord.
At best they came to a free land of opportunity - and at some point decided that now it's fine for them to deny others the same.
At worst they came illegally to pre-existing countries and you know the rest of the story.

There is no moral right for modern Americans to deny others the same. Zero. None. Only the right of force - but if you follow the "might makes right" principle, you can't make moral judgments about others; everyone who meets their objective is automatically right in that value system.

As a practical matter (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic) but we have some Americans who are life-long criminals and illegal immigrants who except for their legality really just want to work.

It would be net gain to deport the first permanently and keep the second, though I don't think there's any way to really do that.

Quote: rxwine

As a practical matter (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic) but we have some Americans who are life-long criminals and illegal immigrants who except for their legality really just want to work.

It would be net gain to deport the first permanently and keep the second, though I don't think there's any way to really do that.

You cannot deport someone from their country of origin. But you can exile him. Of course that would mean having some county wanting such people. Or you could build a prison colony and control access to transportation, but that's a really dated option that woulnd't fly today.

The US did have open immigration until, I think, sometime in the 30s. Typically anyone was allowed in who wasn't sick or had a criminal record, or something like that. While other countries operated under similar principles, few received as many immigrants. At the time, too, the main influx came from Europe.

yeah, exile was the word I should of used. At any rate, it's not likely possible.

Quote: rxwine

yeah, exile was the word I should of used. At any rate, it's not likely possible.

These dyas about the only kind you see is self-exile, at least from free and semi-free countires. Sometiems "political prisoners" from totalitarian states are "exiled" abroad. But that's a reward if you ask me.

Oh, those who exile themselves from their home country usuallya re on the lam, too. Some for good reasons, like those who tried to run gamblig sites, and some for bad reasons, like Roman Poalnski.

Quote: P90

There is a deeper-rooted issue here though.
What right, aside from might alone, do modern Americans have to decide who is a legal immigrant and who an illegal one?

Everyone in the United States today, more precisely almost everyone, came as an immigrant or was born to a line of such. These earlier immigrants didn't have a visa, a permit, anything of the sort. Some were convicted here, more came on their own accord.
At best they came to a free land of opportunity - and at some point decided that now it's fine for them to deny others the same.
At worst they came illegally to pre-existing countries and you know the rest of the story.

There is no moral right for modern Americans to deny others the same. Zero. None. Only the right of force - but if you follow the "might makes right" principle, you can't make moral judgments about others; everyone who meets their objective is automatically right in that value system.

That probably applies to most countries. My distant ancestors arrived in the UK from Scandanavia and from Spain (via Ireland). And before then, distantly back to the Great Rift Valley.

Your argument, which seems parsimonious if not practical, is that countries require no borders to stop economic migration (or migration of any sort?). Thus anyone should be allowed into the US... provided they obey the laws of the land (or otherwise... what moral right does anyone have to apply the laws of the US to someone from elsewhere... you only set those laws up at some previous point).

Quote: thecesspit

That probably applies to most countries. My distant ancestors arrived in the UK from Scandanavia and from Spain (via Ireland). And before then, distantly back to the Great Rift Valley.

And all ultimately arrived most likely from Africa. But these situations are not all equal. While older countries started out as uninhabited and the story of their settlement has been long lost, the history of America is all too recent and all too well known.

Everyone currently living in US, unless they are from the tribes, has no basis for grandstanding and no more moral right to be here than any other person in the world, be it from Mexico, Britain, China or anywhere else.

The only coherent moral justification for the current Americans to have the right to deny others immigration is that we have bigger guns and can kick their asses out. But the same morality justifies "illegals" just as much - if they can get here and avoid the authorities, they are fully in their right in doing it.

venganza para la guerra del 47.

Quote: rxwine

As a practical matter (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic) but we have some Americans who are life-long criminals and illegal immigrants who except for their legality really just want to work.

Yeah, and a lot of other criminals, that except for their crimes are just fine.

Quote: P90

The only coherent moral justification for the current Americans to have the right to deny others immigration is that we have bigger guns and can kick their asses out. But the same morality justifies "illegals" just as much - if they can get here and avoid the authorities, they are fully in their right in doing it.

And how is the same logic not applicable to bank robbers? Banks are obviously predators, preying on people's misfortune. The only justification for police to enforce the law - any law - is that they have bigger guns. But if you can escape them, everything is fair game, right?
Well, in a way, you are right. I can't blame illegal immigrants or bank robbers for violating the law, if the government refuses to do its job enforcing it. The government needs to be fired.

Quote: weaselman

And how is the same logic not applicable to bank robbers? Banks are obviously predators, preying on people's misfortune.

That's not obvious at all. Doesn't makes any sense.
Moral doctrines against initiation of violence are fairly common and self-explicable.

Quote: weaselman

The only justification for police to enforce the law - any law - is that they have bigger guns.

Sometimes there are other justifications, in different moral systems.
Other than that, man's law is just the preferences of the guy with the biggest stick. Worshiping a big stick is just as gay as it sounds.

Quote: weaselman

I can't blame illegal immigrants

You missed the point about the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants being arbitrary.

There is power justification - we can kick them out because we can - but no viable moral justification. So there is no basis for grandstanding. Like them or hate them, but unless you're a tribal, don't act like you have any more moral right to be here than they are, because you don't.

Quote: P90

That's not obvious at all. Doesn't makes any sense.
Moral doctrines against initiation of violence are fairly common and self-explicable.

Of course. I am talking about non-violent crimes (which most bank robberies are actually).
If you don't like bank robbery, consider fraud, or tax evasion.
I am just saying that, if you dismiss the idea that the law needs to be obeyed simply because it is the law, then much of everything is fair game.

Quote:

You missed the point about the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants being arbitrary.

It is as arbitrary as the distinction between your money and my money. Or, if you prefer, the distinction between your money and government's money.

Quote:

So there is no basis for grandstanding.

I think, there is. The basis is, I have little respect for people who do not respect the laws of the country they live in. More precisely, no respect at all. Especially, when I happen to live in the same country. I want all criminals prosecuted, and, perhaps, more importantly, I want all possible future criminals to understand there is very high chance, they will be prosecuted if they commit a crime.

Quote:

Like them or hate them, but unless you're a tribal, don't act like you have any more moral right to be here than they are, because you don't.

No, it can be said about any country in the world, but name one that just lets anyone come and live, and work there if they feel like it.
I have more right to be here because I have not violated any laws, and they have. I also pay taxes, and they don't, but that's secondary.

Quote: P90

There is no moral right for modern Americans to deny others the same. Zero. None. Only the right of force - but if you follow the "might makes right" principle, you can't make moral judgments about others; everyone who meets their objective is automatically right in that value system.

Was there ever a moral right to owning property? Somebody squats, perhaps a group codifies it as govenrment that they "own" that property.

It's all by force. The idea of statue of limitations is also just made up. Just because we don't know who lived there before doesn't mean the person who does now owns it. Maybe that person is on extended vacation (or a hunt)

If Genghis Khan showed up your neighborhood, you likely no longer owned your property, your wife, or your life.

Not sure where you were going with this, so just musing some.

Quote: weaselman

I have more right to be here because I have not violated any laws, and they have. I also pay taxes, and they don't, but that's secondary.

/takes bait

Say wha?

/bait

Also, I'm guessing the border of the U.S. laws, and relation to other nations is probably a combination of battles already fought with other nations, and treaties signed, and all that in respect to why the people living here are the primary land owners or citizens and what not.

We signed agreements with native Americans too. Of course, we killed a bunch of them too so they became somewhat compliant.

Then at some point, we said, times up. New rules for new immigrants from now on, if anyone else shows up (more or less, I suppose)

I think it's hilarious when people say "I pay taxes, illegals don't"

Illegals pay a ton more in taxes. If two employees are being paid at $12.00 an hour, one illegal and one legal, the illegal one is paying taxes, and getting no benefits. They don't get social security, they don't get medicare, they can't get unemployment. When it comes time to get a tax return, the illegal cannot file, the legal one does, and is taxed at a rate around 5-10% so gets a refund.

Our country is PROFITING off illegals - from taxes and from their labor.

They illegals are benefiting too, don't get me wrong, but they aren't taking jobs from hardworking Americans. They're taking jobs from lazy Americans.

Finally, you can be upset at the ones that cross the border illegally. It's tough to hold it against their children. Their children are born in Mexico, at age 2 move to the US. 20 years later, they get kicked out of their jobs, and possibly deported if they are discovered. How is that fair to them? They don't know anyone in Mexico, and some don't even know Spanish that well.

All I'm saying, is that now that we use E-Verify to make sure everyone we hire are legal, we're having a lot harder time finding good, hardworking employees...

Quote: FinsRule

I think it's hilarious when people say "I pay taxes, illegals don't"

I knew someone would say that, I just knew.

Quote:

Illegals pay a ton more in taxes.

Now, that is hillarious.

Quote:

If two employees are being paid at $12.00 an hour, one illegal and one legal, the illegal one is paying taxes, and getting no benefits.

Why would he pay taxes? Is he stupid?
Ok, maybe, you've seen a few stupid illegals, that were also able to find an employer stupid enough to hire them officially, so that they would have to deduct the taxes ... But to say, that it is in a any way common ... just hilarious.

Quote:

They don't get social security, they don't get medicare, they can't get unemployment.

Oh, poor criminals ... they can't get unemployment :'(

Quote:

When it comes time to get a tax return, the illegal cannot file,

Why can't he file? No SSN? How did he pay taxes then in the first place? I think,you are trying to eat the cake and have it too. Either he does not pay taxes, or he cannot file the tax return, not both at the same time.

Quote:

Our country is PROFITING off illegals - from taxes and from their labor.

LOL.

Quote:

Finally, you can be upset at the ones that cross the border illegally. It's tough to hold it against their children.Their children are born in Mexico, at age 2 move to the US.

Yeah ... well, children of criminals often get tough lives. Being born in Mexico and moving to US isn't the worst of it. Some criminals give birth in prison. Some are drug addicts. Some beat their kids to death. In two words, it sucks to be a child of a criminal. Now, what's new?

Quote:

How is that fair to them?

It's not. And they have their criminal parents to thank for it. There is a lot of unfairness in life.
If you are worried about fairness, think about the kids, who stayed back in Mexico. How is it fair to them, that these ones are going to be rewarded with free education, free health care, free housing etc., etc., just because their parents are criminals, while those left in Mexico, are going to suffer, because their parents were too honest to break the law. Is this fair?
And what about those, left in Albania ... just because they are on another continent, they are not getting the freebies. How fair is that? Perhaps, we should send a few jets to pick them up and bring over here. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to just walk across the border.

Weaselman, maybe you've never had a job. A lot of your comments reflect a lack of knowledge of the workforce. But when you get a job, you fill out tax forms. On these forms, you need to declare your withholding.

Then, on your paycheck, taxes are taken out for social security and medicare automatically. Then, federal and state taxes are taken out based on your withholding.

To think that this is not common, is insane. I feel like you have to know that this is true, and this must be some game your playing to see if someone will respond. So maybe I'm the idiot who fell for it.

I never said I feel sorry for them. Except for the ones that came here with their parents. I'm just saying that we make money off their labor.

Quote: weaselman

I am just saying that, if you dismiss the idea that the law needs to be obeyed simply because it is the law

Of course it doesn't. Man's law needs to be obeyed if and because it is fair and mutually beneficial.

You can look up stupid laws about not walking by a particular lake on Thursdays or freely shooting Scotsmen in a particular locale. These are not upheld. At a very slow rate, obsolete laws are being repelled. There is a number of more recent laws that are offensive as well, and fortunately they as well are rarely followed.

When a law is unfair or harmful, it should be, to the extent that it is practical to do so, circumvented, evaded, opposed and ultimately removed.

Quote: weaselman

I want all criminals prosecuted

Have you ever violated any law of your country?

This is a yes or no question.
If yes, please turn yourself in with proof of your crimes and insist on being prosecuted.
If no, please finally patch up the Commandments, it's time to remove "Thou shalt not covet" and add "Thou shalt not cross borders without a visa". And what's with the shellfish.

Fins, there is a large segment of undocumented worker that do not pay income or payroll taxes. Well, at least not like we do. They are more like slaves. They make less than 1/4 of the pay that a "legal" worker would make. Who they gonna run to and tell? I see them nearly everyday in my line of work. Out there everyday, picking lettuce, tomatoes, or whatever. We ain't built a machine yet than can pick those sensitive plants in a way that would be suitable. Some of them make as little as 2 bucks an hour. And again, who are they gonna call? They live together in long barracks like structures, sometimes with over 100 people when there is room for maybe 25 there. They work the entire time the sun is up for next to nothing so we can buy our lettuce for 99 cents a head at Wal-Mart.

Of course, sometimes ICE will come in and take a few. This is normally brokered by the company. They have agreements to sacrifice a few so the feds will leave the rest alone. Very interesting piece on this in the documentary Food, Inc. Describes this arrangement between Smithfield (the meat packaging company for those who don't know), and the feds. And again, who are these people going to run to? Those conditions are still better than what they can hope to achieve at home, so they deal with it. The companies are engaged in human trafficking. No better than the pimps that "staff" the cantinas in Houston, the "clubs" in North Las Vegas, or the "spas" in San Francisco. I agree with Cess, if the government was really wanting this to stop, they would go after the employers.

Sure there are some illegals that cause problems, and "break" the law (more than just being here), but the majority that I am in contact with (every other day), are just hard working people trying to take care of their families and have a better life. Kinda the same as I do. And as far as the lack of paying taxes, free healthcare, and all the other "benefits" that our "citizens" are tired of paying for...you really are getting a bargain. Take them out of the labor pool and see what happens at the register at your favorite store or in the cost of building projects. When you are paying $6.99 per head of lettuce, you may want them back.

Seems like we could find a much more productive way to "fix" the problem, but it ain't gonna happen. And remember, less than 50% of the actual citizens on the US pay any income taxes at all, however, they do pay the same taxes as illegals for gas, phone service, and any other myriad of taxes that we pay on a daily basis.

Back to my cave, I am sure I will be marked as an illegal sympathizer, and ostracized for my position.

And BTW Fins, I wasn't indicting you as one who wants to get rid of all the "criminals", was just answering the tax statement.

Quote: P90

You can look up stupid laws about .... freely shooting Scotsmen in a particular locale.

That was a law passed where you could freely shoot a Scotsman within the city walls of York. I always kept it quite I was half-Scots. I didn't want to be half-shot when I lived there.

Sweden Transitioning To Cashless Economy

I've always thought that one of the side effects of a cashless society, was that it would be much more difficult to be an illegal immigrant. Sweden is circulating US$1,387 per person in large denomination (equivalent US$75 and $150 banknotes) and US$282 per person in small banknotes and coins (US$15 to 15 cents).

I've always assumed that the government would take away the large banknotes first to prevent tax evasion, drug trade, and cash home repair projects (as well as robberies). However, it occurs to me that it might be more effective to stop printing the small notes. While most citizens can easily get cards to take care of small transactions, they will still have the privacy afforded by the big notes. The poor immigrants won't be able to function on a day to day basis without getting a card.

If you take away the 20, 50 and 100 note, then you might be able to pay an illegal immigrant with a larger banknote, but he can do very little with it. He needs to have a phone or a card or something to buy anything. That way you leave a trace.

The problem with articles like this is that they always hold up the most qualified and shining examples of that group. There could be someone who just barely passed high school who would be eligible under this amnesty (and it is amnesty, even if I may agree with parts of it). Any seemingly "objective" standard, like grade point average, would get watered down because sympathetic teachers would up their status a grade level if doing so would lead the student not to get deported. Even this current standard allows people to claim that they are younger than they actually are, in order to qualify for the amnesty. After all, well the feds spend the money to verify the veracity of foreign documents, especially from countries known for their petty corruption?

I would use the citizenship test and standardized tests to determine if we want people in this country. At the very least we should be picking the cream of the crop. So you can't just pass high school and be coasting through a community college. You have to take the citizenship test and score at least 1800 on the SAT (you get two tries for this). You also have to hold a conversation in English for 15 minutes on a topic selected from a list of important issues. Before you sign up for this program, you have to agree that you will be immediately deported if you fail the test. Once you pass this, you will be treated as a non-resident for income tax purposes, for the amount of time it would take for you to get a green card had you stayed in your home country. In addition to the increased taxation, you will also pay back the education that you received from our government, through an income offset similar to that used for student loan repayment. We don't want you to live in poverty, but for the future lawyer who is currently undocumented, they will be happy to pay 75% of their income in taxes and loan repayment, because they would be making one tenth of that in their home country.

Unfortunately this proposal legalizes too many people for the right, and is too hard on the immigrants for the left, most of whom had poor school systems (although there was nothing stopping them from going to the library and learning on their own). This country needs more bright people. It does not need more dishwashers and burger flippers. For the migrant labor issue, which is legitimate, we can reinstate the bracero program, but declare immediately that any children born from a member of the bracero program is to be swiftly placed for adoption, to avoid the anchor baby issue, and that they would be disqualified from the program in the future. But before this is implemented, the pay must be increased to twice the minimum wage such that legal immigrants and Americans will consider taking the job, if it means double what they get stocking shelves at Target.

Quote: FinsRule

Weaselman, maybe you've never had a job. A lot of your comments reflect a lack of knowledge of the workforce.

Nah, I am too rich. I leave working for the poor, and the stupid. There are better things in life for normal people to enjoy then stupid work.

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But when you get a job, you fill out tax forms. On these forms, you need to declare your withholding.

Yeah. And SSN.
Or you just work for cash, and don't fill any papers at all, like most of the illegals actually do.

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To think that this is not common, is insane.

Well, then it looks like in your world it is common to be insane. Or insane to be common.
One way or the other,you need to take off your pink glasses.

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I feel like you have to know that this is true, and this must be some game your playing to see if someone will respond.

I actually feel the same exact way about you.

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I never said I feel sorry for them. Except for the ones that came here with their parents. I'm just saying that we make money off their labor.

Well, as long as this invisible money we "make" is enough to pay unemployment to all the lazy Americans who would have to take their jobs otherwise, I guess, it is ok. We just need to raise the unemployment amount so that the lazy can actually survive on it while illegals are busy producing the money for us.