Having to tip dealers is ridiculous
So... you get a bunch of signatures... and then what? Deliver it to... who? Nothing changes either way.
Quote: ontariodealerI would wager over half the regular posters here would not make good dealers. You would learn all the games and know everything inside out but that has zero to do with being able to do the job.
I resemble that remark. Only dealt a few months. Like being a player better. I can say F*** You when someone is rude to a dealer.
Usually remind them all decisions are made on our side of the table. Or dealers don't get many tips when we are losing. But some people need a soft FU. Has more integrity delivered that way.
I usually do, and expect you to respect my decision to do so just as I respect your decision to refrain.
Customers subsidize the employee's salary in many jobs, not just dealers. Do you think your hair-dresser, waiter or waitress, etc. would make a half-decent living without tips?
I can't support your petition. I don't mind tipping I just dont like people telling me I should tip and im a piece of crap and looked down on if i decide not to. I also don't like people telling others NOT to tip. People should ... MYOB when it comes to tipping.Quote: BlueOceansAgreed, please support our petition.
I don't like the fact that there is a standard of how much to tip and any thing less is considered dishonorable.
since your real gripe seems to be with poker tipping. You say that the casinos can more then afford to Pay the dealers from the rake. I'm not so sure about this, Haven't you notice some of the poker rooms in Vegas failing?
Also, I like most poker dealers, they get to keep there own tips and usually are very nice to me. I think they do work harder then a BJ dealer and offer more.
Quote: RS"Why should casino customers have to subsidize dealer salaries?"
Customers subsidize the employee's salary in many jobs, not just dealers. Do you think your hair-dresser, waiter or waitress, etc. would make a half-decent living without tips?
Right, and there are plenty of jobs where they do not! (Cashiers, bank tellers, etc...) I just think dealers (poker excluded actually), should be treated like the ones I mention. I know these tables are making enough to support paying a dealer $15 an hour.
Quote: FinsRuleRight, and there are plenty of jobs where they do not! (Cashiers, bank tellers, etc...) I just think dealers (poker excluded actually), should be treated like the ones I mention. I know these tables are making enough to support paying a dealer $15 an hour.
If the only expenses were to pay dealers, sure, they could pay 'em $15/hour. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Pit bosses, pit clerks, floor supervisors, not to mention the tables, felt, machines (CSMs, ASMs) etc. that are rented out. What about surveillance, cashiers, security, cleaning people, comps, property taxes, lighting, just to name a few? I'm not into all the financials and how casinos have been doing lately, but from what I've read, it looks like they've been going downhill. Casinos are like any other business, they seem like they're just "raking in the money", but you don't realize they have a shitton of expenses too.
Not to mention, if dealer's are getting paid good enough with the current system, why fix it? You think casinos are going to say, "We are now paying our employees $15/hour, so don't tip them."?
Do you think no one in any job should get tipped, but the employees should be paid a higher wage? How's that going to happen....magically? Or do you think food at your restaurant is going to cost more, your hair-cut will cost $40 instead of $25, house edge in casino games increase?
Tipping the dealers is not like a tip to a waiter; when tips are pooled it really is just a way to subsidize the employer. But I understand that. And when I chose to go to a casino I understand it'll be costing me around $4 more per hour due to my tipping habits. If I can't afford those small tips I'm not going.
I went to the dollar store yesterday. I am sure the cashier is making somewhere around minimum wage. I didn't tip her, even though she helped me find an item, because it is just not the custom to do so.
If any of you are 'cruisers', the tipping on those big ships adds up to big money. But what I liked about it was they give you a defined 'recommended amount'. So before I booked the trip I knew what the cost would really be. So the $1000 trip was going to be $1250. If I wasn't willing to pay $1250 for the cruise I wasn't going.
As far as the petition... seriously... who are you going to present it to?
The fact that you deal and AP and play craps (-EV?) gives you the right to comment on both sides. Some people who have extreme views (both sides). Some of them don't deal or gamble.Quote: RS
I would have to say, since you do all 3, I think we need to put more stock in your views on the subject.
Quote: RSIf the only expenses were to pay dealers, sure, they could pay 'em $15/hour. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Pit bosses, pit clerks, floor supervisors, not to mention the tables, felt, machines (CSMs, ASMs) etc. that are rented out. What about surveillance, cashiers, security, cleaning people, comps, property taxes, lighting, just to name a few?
Do you think no one in any job should get tipped, but the employees should be paid a higher wage? How's that going to happen....magically? Or do you think food at your restaurant is going to cost more, your hair-cut will cost $40 instead of $25, house edge in casino games increase?
A couple points in your post that I would like to address, RS.
1.) Your final point, comparing a dealer to a barber or restaurant server is very problematic for me. There are jobs where the employee provides a 'personalized service'. A waiter and barber are prime examples of that. I just don't put a dealer in that same category. I don't consider a guy dealing to a table full of players providing a personalized service. To me it falls more in the category of just a routine job dealing with the public, like the cashier and bus driver or receptionist at the doctors office.
2.) You inadvertently make the point that pit bosses and clerks, surveillance, security, cashiers, players club clerk, cleaning people and various other casino personnel ALL contribute to the casino experience. Yet is not expected that I tip any of them. Why should they be left out?
Quote: kewlj
1.) Your final point, comparing a dealer to a barber or restaurant server is very problematic for me. There are jobs where the employee provides a 'personalized service'. A waiter and barber are prime examples of that. I just don't put a dealer in that same category. I don't consider a guy dealing to a table full of players providing a personalized service. ?
That's because your are an AP. When I'm playing my Pai Gow Tiles or Pai Gow Poker, I'm always chatting with the dealers. If I'm alone with a dealer at Tiles, I always hand him or her one of my tiles, and 'ask' for a certain tile. In cards sometimes I'll 'beg' for the dealer to have a certain hand, and the dealer will play along. I can assure you, my dealers provide more personalized service to me than a waiter who does nothing more than bring food I order.
Doctors are forbidden by law from accepting a gratuity from a Medicare or Medicaid patient. All of the commercial insurance companies have the same rule as a condition for participation in that plan.
So you consider the the conversation and them rooting for you "playing along" as the value to you and you tip for this reason.Quote: SOOPOOThat's because your are an AP. When I'm playing my Pai Gow Tiles or Pai Gow Poker, I'm always chatting with the dealers. If I'm alone with a dealer at Tiles, I always hand him or her one of my tiles, and 'ask' for a certain tile. In cards sometimes I'll 'beg' for the dealer to have a certain hand, and the dealer will play along. I can assure you, my dealers provide more personalized service to me than a waiter who does nothing more than bring food I order.
Doctors are forbidden by law from accepting a gratuity from a Medicare or Medicaid patient. All of the commercial insurance companies have the same rule as a condition for participation in that plan.
Since some people(even non AP's) don't use or want this service they just want to play quietly and MTOB. Should they be expected to tip? They are only using the service the dealers are already being paid to do. The people who engage dealers as you do, should be the ones expected to tip. Again I'm not against tipping. I just think not tipping dealers should be the normal thing and when they get a tip they should know it was for GOOD service not because its expected.
Quote: AxelWolfSo you consider the the conversation and them rooting for you "playing along" as the value to you and you tip for this reason.
Since some people(even non AP's) don't use or want this service they just want to play quietly and MTOB. Should they be expected to tip? They are only using the service the dealers are already being paid to do. The people who engage dealers as you do, should be the ones expected to tip. Again I'm not against tipping. I just think not tipping dealers should be the normal thing and when they get a tip they should know it was for GOOD service not because its expected.
Mr. Wolf.... I am a follower when it comes to tipping..... if it is the 'norm', I do so. To me it is the norm to tip dealers. If I lived in Australia where it is the norm not to tip, I wouldn't tip.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe "just because everyone else is doing it" excuse is a pretty lousy excuse.
I disagree. Lets say you do not believe waiters provide a service that deserves additional compensation via tips. How do you think it will go for you when you return to your favorite restaurant after not tipping?
Lets say you are just comfortable in flip flops and T shirts. Are you going to your favorite French restaurant dressed as such?
You prefer standing to sitting. Are you standing the entire game at your baseball game?
You like chatting with your wife. You doing so throughout the opera?
Maybe not perfect examples.... but some things that 'everyone else is doing'.... it's just not worth not doing....
Yes and no.Quote: IbeatyouracesThe "just because everyone else is doing it" excuse is a pretty lousy excuse.
We all think its the Norm that Lem66 should have paid back the guy who he owed money to. Even after lem66 said that this guy used his addiction to con him, Lied, and stole money.
I bet 90% of guys on this forum would not dress up for a nice dinner. I have went to many fancy restaurants with other gamblers. AP's and people in general and they often show up in shorts and T-shirt.Quote: SOOPOO
Lets say you are just comfortable in flip flops and T shirts. Are you going to your favorite French restaurant dressed as such?
**Cough** Djatc
Quote:I bet 90% of guys on this forum would not dress up for a nice dinner. I have went to many fancy restaurants with other gamblers. AP's and people in general and they often show up in shorts and T-shirt.
The "dressing down of America" is pretty much all pervasive.
People don't dress up like they used to, whether to go to church, to gamble in a strip casino, or out to dinner at a very nice restaurant.
Things have changed.
Quote: AxelWolfI bet 90% of guys on this forum would not dress up for a nice dinner. I have went to many fancy restaurants with other gamblers. AP's and people in general and they often show up in shorts and T-shirt.
**Cough** Djatc
And they are more then welcome to not serve me if my attire is not fancy enough. I've never been kicked out for casual wear. 99.73% of places in Vegas just want to make sure you can pay or have a comp. And leave a tip.
You can do the same to restaurants, but I imaging the owner will say no if he is honest.
Quote: supergrasstell the pit boss that you will not tip dealer and ask him if you are still welcome. ... I imaging he will say yes.
I wouldn't be surprised if he also said "shuffle up" every time you change your bet, or said that you were of course welcome to play on a 1:1 CSM table.
Quote: Dieteror said that you were of course welcome to play on a 1:1 CSM table.
BJ paying 1 to 1? This is the same as replying 'no': move on or tip dealer.
Quote: DieterI wouldn't be surprised if he also said "shuffle up" every time you change your bet
not relevant (unless you count cards)
Quote: DieterI wouldn't be surprised if he also said "shuffle up" every time you change your bet
I can only dream of finding a casino that stupid.
Quote: supergrassBJ paying 1 to 1? This is the same as replying 'no': move on or tip dealer.
I would expect that this would be accompanied by a "player natural always wins", plus an option to double on the soft 21 for a potential loss or potential 2:1.
If it's 1:1, the game is not blackjack - it's 21.
Quote: djatcIn states where a gas attendant pumps your gas, do you tip them? I never do because it's a service I normally wouldn't use but is forced on me. Same could be said for other services but there's a line that must be drawn somewhere.
I was admonished by my relatives who live in NJ when I tipped a gas station attendant for pumping my gas - they said that is not customary.
Quote: AxelWolf
Why not tip lawyers. . .They also took the time to go to school for years and probably made sacrifices.
Here here!!!
Quote: aceofspadesI was admonished by my relatives who live in NJ when I tipped a gas station attendant for pumping my gas - they said that is not customary.
I drove through and filled up at a gas station in Oregon. I observed nobody tipping. It's safe to say not tipping an attendant isn't a big deal. However, not tipping a waiter is, unless you have an extremely good reason why not to.
Societal pressures me to tip no matter how bad the service is though... I've never left 0% before.
Quote: kewljA couple points in your post that I would like to address, RS.
1.) Your final point, comparing a dealer to a barber or restaurant server is very problematic for me. There are jobs where the employee provides a 'personalized service'. A waiter and barber are prime examples of that. I just don't put a dealer in that same category. I don't consider a guy dealing to a table full of players providing a personalized service. To me it falls more in the category of just a routine job dealing with the public, like the cashier and bus driver or receptionist at the doctors office.
2.) You inadvertently make the point that pit bosses and clerks, surveillance, security, cashiers, players club clerk, cleaning people and various other casino personnel ALL contribute to the casino experience. Yet is not expected that I tip any of them. Why should they be left out?
1. They offer personalized service. They tend to talk to their players (many like this, unfortunately). A dealer covers 1 table and has 4-5 people at it. A waiter covers 8-10 tables (actually I have no idea how many tables a waiters waits on). Rarely have I ever walked into a restaurant and an employee knows who I am. Plenty of times entering a casino, a couple dealers would say hi to me and the boss would go out of their way to welcome me...because they actually know who I am, not part of their "welcome everyone" thing.
2. I know bosses do not make minimum wage. I assume the same is true for security and surveillance, but I don't know for sure. Others like cashiers, cleaning people, etc. should get tipped, but has been pointed out above...some things are customary to tip and others aren't.
I pumped gas at a full service station for about a year in high school. Some people tip, but it is not customary and probably about 10% of customers, just a nice surprise when they did. Probably get tipped slightly less often than a barista, although I don't know I don't buy coffee at those type of places.Quote: djatcI drove through and filled up at a gas station in Oregon. I observed nobody tipping. It's safe to say not tipping an attendant isn't a big deal. However, not tipping a waiter is, unless you have an extremely good reason why not to.
Societal pressures me to tip no matter how bad the service is though... I've never left 0% before.
Quote: elvisCountermeasures are in place by all floor supervisors when someone does not tip. I have explained a few of them. Does not that concern you?
lol... no.
Because of this comment I will be stiffing a few dealers and refer your name as to the reason, I will suggest the same to friends and family. This kind of stuff is what hurts the casino industry, you are basically stealing and possibly lying.Quote: elvisKeep in mind that every table games supervisor knows or finds out what a player is tipping especially after a large win or series of winning hands. The predominant conversation in the break room among dealers is tipping and who does not tip and their names and descriptions. As a table games supervisor if a SOB does not tip my dealer after wins I cut his average bet to the minimum. I do not give him a break if there is a dispute and I will watch his blackjack play and try to get him fingered by the eye in the sky. Notes can be put on his players card profile which AUTOMATICALLY come up each time the card is entered. These notes stay on for three years. So don't tip you heathen. I will be happy to cut your comps and put notes on your card that you are an advantage player or are suspected of it. Don't anyone ever say they do not tip in front of me. I was a dealer also. Dick.
Personally, if you are table games supervisor(and I highly doubt it) I think you should be fired.
PS. I will be filled with joy if you get suspended.
I see there's more BS that needs to get taken care of. Anyway, I'm with Axel 1000% on this one. I also think you should be fired. If someone's average bet is $100, and you're dropping it down to the table min because of your own vindictive reasons, that's bull----Quote: elvisexplain yourself and your reasons for getting on the bad side of people. do you tip taxi drivers? how about if someone told you he would purposely give you a rough dangerous ride if you did not tip. I guess you still would not tip and say this is the attitude for my not tipping instead of seeing it from the cabbies viewpoint. Your attitude is the one that sucks. The cabbie is trying to make a living and his pay is mostly tips but you do not care at all about that. It is the same for dealers. I hope you come to a table of mine and not tip and vary your bet with the count and try to disguise your play in front of me. I will have the dealer tell me what your scheme is when he goes on break. I will put you as an advantage player and it will be broadcast to all the other casinos that we are affiliated with. Is not the cost of doing business longer and profitably worth giving tips to dealers? The worst thing I have seen recently was a player who won on the big six wheel on the 45 to 1 and the dealer and I clapped for him and gave him a round of congratulations. He did not leave a tip even after that 1200 dollar win. The notes of his profile are distinct and when he was drunk the following night that dealer fingered him and I had him arrested outside of the casino for trying to drive drunk. If he had tipped he might have gone under the radar. You are an idiot if you think you can get away with not tipping the dealer in a casino. There are repercussions and payback to that player might take a year or more but it will come from the dealer or floor person who saw him not tip. I remember the faces when I dealt and now they sheepishly want favors from me as a pit person. I deny them with vigor whenever possible and will continue to do so for him and anyone he is with. LOL I would not gamble with you or listen to anything you say and I remember a face even a disguised face for years and when I become a shift manager I will remember you.
But, for whatever reason, I doubt that you're really a pit manager. My guess is that you're (possibly) just a dual-rate who's gotten a little taste of authority and likes it. But if you truly are a pit manager, then which casino do you work at? I'd love to be able to tell everyone I know not to frequent your establishment. (Remember, you're the one who dared us to play at your casino, so unless you name it, I'm calling BS.)
Quote: elvisI hope you come to a table of mine and not tip and vary your bet with the count and try to disguise your play in front of me. I will have the dealer tell me what your scheme is when he goes on break
Here is the problem with this plan:
You and the dealer could work on it together for hours and you would still not be able to figure it out.
It's no surprise you use the no tipping angle to try to identify Counters. I doubt you could spot a counter if he was using a abacus @ the table.Quote: elvisexplain yourself and your reasons for getting on the bad side of people. do you tip taxi drivers? how about if someone told you he would purposely give you a rough dangerous ride if you did not tip. I guess you still would not tip and say this is the attitude for my not tipping instead of seeing it from the cabbies viewpoint. Your attitude is the one that sucks. The cabbie is trying to make a living and his pay is mostly tips but you do not care at all about that. It is the same for dealers. I hope you come to a table of mine and not tip and vary your bet with the count and try to disguise your play in front of me. I will have the dealer tell me what your scheme is when he goes on break. I will put you as an advantage player and it will be broadcast to all the other casinos that we are affiliated with. Is not the cost of doing business longer and profitably worth giving tips to dealers? The worst thing I have seen recently was a player who won on the big six wheel on the 45 to 1 and the dealer and I clapped for him and gave him a round of congratulations. He did not leave a tip even after that 1200 dollar win. The notes of his profile are distinct and when he was drunk the following night that dealer fingered him and I had him arrested outside of the casino for trying to drive drunk. If he had tipped he might have gone under the radar. You are an idiot if you think you can get away with not tipping the dealer in a casino. There are repercussions and payback to that player might take a year or more but it will come from the dealer or floor person who saw him not tip. I remember the faces when I dealt and now they sheepishly want favors from me as a pit person. I deny them with vigor whenever possible and will continue to do so for him and anyone he is with. LOL I would not gamble with you or listen to anything you say and I remember a face even a disguised face for years and when I become a shift manager I will remember you.
I doubt I will ever play Black Jack at the north town silver nugget, so i'm probably safe.
I normally tip however your attitude makes me stiff.
Its obvious you work at a place like I mentioned because $1200 win with no tipping is nothing, try 100s of thousand.
Its usually a dumb and dumber situation when dealers and supervisors talk.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHere is the problem with this plan:
You and the dealer could work on it together for hours and you would still not be able to figure it out.
Quote: elvisexplain yourself and your reasons for getting on the bad side of people. do you tip taxi drivers? how about if someone told you he would purposely give you a rough dangerous ride if you did not tip. I guess you still would not tip and say this is the attitude for my not tipping instead of seeing it from the cabbies viewpoint. Your attitude is the one that sucks. The cabbie is trying to make a living and his pay is mostly tips but you do not care at all about that. It is the same for dealers. I hope you come to a table of mine and not tip and vary your bet with the count and try to disguise your play in front of me. I will have the dealer tell me what your scheme is when he goes on break. I will put you as an advantage player and it will be broadcast to all the other casinos that we are affiliated with. Is not the cost of doing business longer and profitably worth giving tips to dealers? The worst thing I have seen recently was a player who won on the big six wheel on the 45 to 1 and the dealer and I clapped for him and gave him a round of congratulations. He did not leave a tip even after that 1200 dollar win. The notes of his profile are distinct and when he was drunk the following night that dealer fingered him and I had him arrested outside of the casino for trying to drive drunk. If he had tipped he might have gone under the radar. You are an idiot if you think you can get away with not tipping the dealer in a casino. There are repercussions and payback to that player might take a year or more but it will come from the dealer or floor person who saw him not tip. I remember the faces when I dealt and now they sheepishly want favors from me as a pit person. I deny them with vigor whenever possible and will continue to do so for him and anyone he is with. LOL I would not gamble with you or listen to anything you say and I remember a face even a disguised face for years and when I become a shift manager I will remember you.
When do you expect to become a shift manager,elvis?
"Such an Easy Question", "ask me","A hundred years from now", "It's Impossible" "Never Had a chance"Quote: 1BBWhen do you expect to become a shift manager,elvis?
When i think of Elvis, i think of" The fool" oh "fool, fool, fool" its already, end of the road, Big boss man,he'll have to go then Hard Luck in an alley
"C'mon Everybody" this is all "Just Pretend"
Tell us what north town casino you work at. We would love to come in stiffing away.Quote: elviscome and count at my table or any table if you stiff the dealers see if they think you are not stealing from them and their families by not tipping. You lie when you try to get friendly with the pit or floor or dealer and then turn around and count and then stiff the dealer while trying to steal from the casino as an advantage player. You put on fake moves and camouflage and then think you are above board and honorable. You are a fraud and should be investigated by the IRS. I will be filled with joy when you are audited and your friends are too.
