Having to tip dealers is ridiculous
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhy did he go nuts?
Because the dealer didn't catch the mistake,
the player did. So that made a dealer a thief,
which the player kept yelling over and over.
An eruption of applause occurred (albeit it not at my table but all the other dealers (most were watching the table next to mine))—apparently, the player had an orange chip in the betting circle and purple out for the dealer…he was dealt 8,8 versus dealer 6 and split…for another 8 (putting up another orange and another purple for the dealer)…on his first 8 of three 8's he received, yup, a 2…he doubled putting out another orange and yes, another purple for the dealer…he got the 10 for 21…on the second 8 of the three 8's he was dealt, here we go again, a 2…he doubled putting out another orange and :gulp: another purple for the dealer…he was dealt a 7 for 17…on the final 8, of course he was dealt a 3…he doubled putting out another orange and yet another purple for the dealer…he was dealt a Queen for 21…….the dealer had a 6, turned over a 10…then drew a 9 for 25…the guy made 6k and the dealers made 3k very nicely done!
Everyone's thoughts on whether you would have just kept the original tip play up and leave it at that or if you would keep adding with each subsequent split/double if you were playing
Quote: aceofspadesThe following happened while I was playing this weekend (taken from my trip report):
An eruption of applause occurred (albeit it not at my table but all the other dealers (most were watching the table next to mine))—apparently, the player had an orange chip in the betting circle and purple out for the dealer…he was dealt 8,8 versus dealer 6 and split…for another 8 (putting up another orange and another purple for the dealer)…on his first 8 of three 8's he received, yup, a 2…he doubled putting out another orange and yes, another purple for the dealer…he got the 10 for 21…on the second 8 of the three 8's he was dealt, here we go again, a 2…he doubled putting out another orange and :gulp: another purple for the dealer…he was dealt a 7 for 17…on the final 8, of course he was dealt a 3…he doubled putting out another orange and yet another purple for the dealer…he was dealt a Queen for 21…….the dealer had a 6, turned over a 10…then drew a 9 for 25…the guy made 6k and the dealers made 3k very nicely done!
Everyone's thoughts on whether you would have just kept the original tip play up and leave it at that or if you would keep adding with each subsequent split/double if you were playing
I don't play that high but I hate getting a split/double on a tip..... makes the situation awkward if you don't put out another chip.
Quote: aceofspadesthe guy made 6k and the dealers made 3k very nicely done!
I think you have it backwards... the guy made $3000 and the dealer made $6000.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think you have it backwards... the guy made $3000 and the dealer made $6000.
The guy had six pumpkins and the dealer had six Barneys.
To the question. If it's going to make you nervous don't put out that much money. If you do make the bet be prepared to follow it through.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think you have it backwards... the guy made $3000 and the dealer made $6000.
The guy had 1k up with 3 splits and 3 doubles for a total of 6 bets of 1k (6 bets *1k = 6k)
Along with that he had 500 up for the dealer and put it up on the three splits and three doubles (6 bets * 500 = 3k)
Quote: 1BBThe guy had six pumpkins and the dealer had six Barneys.
Right, so the guy made $3,000 and the dealers made $6,000.
Quote: aceofspadesThe guy had 1k up with 3 splits and 3 doubles for a total of 6 bets of 1k (6 bets *1k = 6k)
Along with that he had 500 up for the dealer and put it up on the three splits and three doubles (6 bets * 500 = 3k)
The guy put out $9k in chips. All bets paid 1:1, so there were $18k in chips out there.
The guy took back $12k chips. (His 6 yellows, plus the 6 yellows that were paid for his bets). Profit = $12k - $9k = $3k
The dealer took the remaining $6k ($3k in dealer bets + $3k in winnings). This is all profit (the dealers didn't put a cent out there)
Quote: sabreRight, so the guy made $3,000 and the dealers made $6,000.
There was a total of 9k on the table
Dealers took 6k
Player took back 12k…if you subtract his original 6k bet, he still profited 6k
I do not discount for tips as you have to believe that is an out of pocket expense - not an out of bankroll expense (or, at least, that is how I do it)
Quote: aceofspadesThere was a total of 9k on the table
Dealers took 6k
Player took back 12k…if you subtract his original 6k bet, he still profited 6k
I do not discount for tips as you have to believe that is an out of pocket expense - not an out of bankroll expense (or, at least, that is how I do it)
The guy's total profit was still $3k. Regardless of accounting tricks, at the end of the hand, his stack had $3k more in it than before the hand, and the dealers had an extra $6k in tokes (and the casino was $9k poorer, to complete the zero-sum game)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe guy's total profit was still $3k. Regardless of accounting tricks, at the end of the hand, his stack had $3k more in it than before the hand, and the dealers had an extra $6k in tokes (and the casino was $9k poorer, to complete the zero-sum game)
Sorry, that's not accounting tricks to me. The 9K left the guy's stack, whether it paid the dealers or the house. Had he lost the hand, he would have been out the full 9K. As it was, he only got 1:3 on his bets because he did not get back the money he bet to win the dealer's side.
I kind of double-budget tips; they're an expense, but they come out of bankroll, and so they're part of winning and losing. More like an add-on to the HE, which is why I generally always only tip on winnings.
Quote: beachbumbabsSorry, that's not accounting tricks to me. The 9K left the guy's stack, whether it paid the dealers or the house. Had he lost the hand, he would have been out the full 9K. As it was, he only got 1:3 on his bets because he did not get back the money he bet to win the dealer's side.
I kind of double-budget tips; they're an expense, but they come out of bankroll, and so they're part of winning and losing. More like an add-on to the HE, which is why I generally always only tip on winnings.
Meh. Fair enough I guess. I view money as being fungible; I don't differentiate between money in this bucket and money in that bucket. I find that doing so tends to leads to logical errors and bad decisions.
But, anyway, regardless of how much you feel the player made, there is no way that "the dealers made $3k" is defensible. The dealers made $6k.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceMeh. Fair enough I guess. I view money as being fungible; I don't differentiate between money in this bucket and money in that bucket. I find that doing so tends to leads to logical errors and bad decisions.
But, anyway, regardless of how much you feel the player made, there is no way that "the dealers made $3k" is defensible. The dealers made $6k.
You are completely correct, and I had not looked at it that way myself, so good point.
In for a penny, in for a pound!! Else, don't put up the penny!!Quote: djatcI don't play that high but I hate getting a split/double on a tip..... makes the situation awkward if you don't put out another chip.
I once had a dealer thank me for putting up his bet and reminding me its not required to Double Down the dealer's bet, only your own.
Nice dealer, nice rule... but as long as you don't have to borrow that pound from somewhere... when the best play for you is to Double Down, then Double Down and don't be stingy doing it.
Quote: beachbumbabsI kind of double-budget tips; they're an expense, but they come out of bankroll, and so they're part of winning and losing. More like an add-on to the HE, which is why I generally always only tip on winnings.
I think that is pretty much how most players feel. Its obvious that dealers, if sensible, want the players to win like mad because that way the players will be more likely to tip like mad. Even if the players keep their cool while winning, its still more likely for a winner to tip larger than someone who is simply rewarding an under paid employee whose income is known to be tip derived.
The saying is tip for the service and if you won to tip even more generously, but that is not always what is done. Tips for winning is what makes craps dealers keep track of your betting style and odds bets. Its what makes a dealer "hand off" your winnings to you if your were not paying attention rather or at least speak to you about them. Its always good to get a dealer on "your" side, he can't change the rules or the dice rolls but he can at least stay alert and keep you in mind. He can stand there half asleep and still get tips but he knows he will get far more tips if he stays on the ball and actually earns them.
That's not exactly right.Quote: FleaStiffI once had a dealer thank me for putting up his bet and reminding me its not required to Double Down the dealer's bet, only your own.
You can always "double for less". THAT'S why doubling the toke is optional.
On the flip side, you can't split for less, so most (all?) casinos require you to pay to split the toke bet.
You can split and not put out more money on the dealers hand the tip ussualy remains on the first hand.Quote: IbeatyouracesNot all require it.
I absolutely can't stand this. I will then purposely stiff them if they start doing this.Even if I'm the one who was doing the tipping. It's a form of chip hustling. If it continues I will mention it to the pit boss.Quote: PhattyDIf I have a tip out and get a double or split, I usually don't add to the tip. Occasionally on a double, but never a split. I'd say I'm an average tipper, but there is one dealer I will never tip. Everytime he deals, he makes a comment to the tippers, "thanks for wanting to win". He deals a good game, but is always making a big to-do when acknowledging a tipper. Pretty annoying.
Quote: aceofspadesI just came across this Craigslist Rant
(no, it is not mine)
It's fine if a patron does not want to tip, but, since the entire economy of restaurant dining in the US is predicated on the tip model, it is only fair for that patron to tell the waiter beforehand that he or she is not going to get a tip. That way things can balance themselves out naturally.
Quote: MoscaQuote: aceofspadesI just came across this Craigslist Rant
(no, it is not mine)
It's fine if a patron does not want to tip, but, since the entire economy of restaurant dining in the US is predicated on the tip model, it is only fair for that patron to tell the waiter beforehand that he or she is not going to get a tip. That way things can balance themselves out naturally.
Are you suggesting vigilante serving?
I do, however, have a problem that you think tipping a dealer makes you an 'idiot.' I'm a dealer - but BEFORE I was even a dealer, I tipped well for good service and mediocre for mediocre service. If a dealer is a jerk-off to you, sure, stiff 'em. But if a dealer is extremely nice to you, roots for you, etc., what's the harm in throwing them $5 when you leave? There's really nothing more laughable than a guy who colors up for $1031 and still keeps the single white cheque.
Also, your logic is quite funny. You'll tip a cocktail waitress who brings you a 'free' drink (not really free anymore, is it?) but not a dealer who would be paying you money if you won. I'm sure you don't lose EVERY time you go, do you? Not to mention, you don't think casinos would somehow get your money from you elsewhere to pay the dealers? Hm, free drinks? Sir, that'll be $11 for your Corona. Comped meals? Gone. Menu prices all around? Gotta raise those too. Hotel rooms are no longer free and now it's 20% more to stay in a room? Ok, but maybe you don't partake in these luxuries... Well, uh, hey, your free entry to the casino floor becomes "WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S $20 TO GET IN?" No more $5, $10 or $15 games? Nope, $25 minimum. No 3:2 blackjack, only 6:5? Ouch. Adding rules to games to increase house edge by 7%? Yup, let's get 'em all! No more match/direct bet play? Ouch.
Yeah your tip money means the house doesn't have to pay out of 'their' pockets but on that note - it's not like the casino caps off a dealers tips per hour and keeps the overage. But sure, go ahead and stick it to the man.
Quote: nobetthisrollI really have no problem with the fact that some people, like yourself, are against tipping a dealer. Don't get me wrong; some of my favorite dice players and baccarat players are also stiffs. So, no, being a stiff won't cause me to be outright rude, make mean comments or not smile when you win - but especially on craps, yeah, if you're a stiff and also rude/loud/obnoxious/whiny to the high heavens, yeah, you might lose some privileges. Late bet because you're slow to get your bet in? No bet this roll. Forgot your odds even though I know you're always betting them? Yeah, not gonna remind you and certainly not gonna pay you for the odds you were going to bet. You like your dice sent out quickly? Nah, I'll send them at my own pace, thanks. You throw your bets in to the stick without any warning or verbal acknowledgement of the bet, the amount of action, etc. and you splash cheques everywhere and it gets locked up by accident after YOU make a mess? Too bad.
I do, however, have a problem that you think tipping a dealer makes you an 'idiot.' I'm a dealer - but BEFORE I was even a dealer, I tipped well for good service and mediocre for mediocre service. If a dealer is a jerk-off to you, sure, stiff 'em. But if a dealer is extremely nice to you, roots for you, etc., what's the harm in throwing them $5 when you leave? There's really nothing more laughable than a guy who colors up for $1031 and still keeps the single white cheque.
Also, your logic is quite funny. You'll tip a cocktail waitress who brings you a 'free' drink (not really free anymore, is it?) but not a dealer who would be paying you money if you won. I'm sure you don't lose EVERY time you go, do you? Not to mention, you don't think casinos would somehow get your money from you elsewhere to pay the dealers? Hm, free drinks? Sir, that'll be $11 for your Corona. Comped meals? Gone. Menu prices all around? Gotta raise those too. Hotel rooms are no longer free and now it's 20% more to stay in a room? Ok, but maybe you don't partake in these luxuries... Well, uh, hey, your free entry to the casino floor becomes "WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S $20 TO GET IN?" No more $5, $10 or $15 games? Nope, $25 minimum. No 3:2 blackjack, only 6:5? Ouch. Adding rules to games to increase house edge by 7%? Yup, let's get 'em all! No more match/direct bet play? Ouch.
Yeah your tip money means the house doesn't have to pay out of 'their' pockets but on that note - it's not like the casino caps off a dealers tips per hour and keeps the overage. But sure, go ahead and stick it to the man.
I for what ever it is worth agree with you.... And im not a dealer just a player..
This is what it is all about... Just like a good server in a restaurant, if the service is good tip accordingly. In the case of craps if the dealer or dealers are helping you with odds and payouts etc. Tip them. Or, if they are pleasant, happy, enjoying their job and truly helping. tip them. (Only if you win) Or a small toke just because.
would do it if they didn't get tipped. Not
even for a 'decent' wage, whatever that
is. Every cheapskate I've known who rants
and raves about tipping usually has many
other problems as well, like no friends and
a couple divorces.
. With regards to the first part, being a dealer is also a crappy job that no one would do if they didn't get tipped. Listen to whiny players all day and 1/3 of them blast you with smoke. Can't really go anywhere if the players a dick, just have to deal with it, especially if they lose a lot. Now there's about 10% of dealers jobs that are way overpaid and somehow that affects a lot of people's perceptions. Toke sharing does more harm than good, it ruins the incentive. Everyone has a right to their own policy and opinion on dealer tokes and whether or not they do so, but it's ironic when players who never toke and try to induce dealer errors then bitch about dealers. They're getting paid $5-8 an hour to deal to you. Most make 15-25, but to deal to you they're getting 5-8. I'm perfectly okay with keeping an overpayment when it happens and pointing it out when your shorted, but trying to induce errors is as classless as one can get.Quote: EvenBobWaiting tables is a crappy job and nobody
would do it if they didn't get tipped. Not
even for a 'decent' wage, whatever that
is. Every cheapskate I've known who rants
and raves about tipping usually has many
other problems as well, like no friends and
a couple divorces.
Quote: mcallister3200I'm a dealer 3 days a week and card counter 3 days or so a week for full disclosure on my opinion. I tip lightly, about 5-10% of my ev if I win, usually towards 5%, and a buck or two if I lose, don't at all if I get just clobbered. Most probably think I'm cheap when I win lol. That's a general guide.
Interesting to hear your circumstances, of playing both sides, mcallister3200. Your tipping regiment, seems fair, but it would be problematic for me. The key word, or actually letters is EV. You tip 5-10% of your EV.
Now, I play very short sessions and move around ALOT. I am rarely at a table more than 30 minutes, and sometimes there for less than 5. But let's go with 30 minutes. That's about $40-$50 in EV for me (average), depending on rules and number of decks. So 5-10% of that EV would be somewhere between $2 and $5. Now unfortunately the wins and losses don't flow like that. While the EV for that session might be $40 bucks it isn't unusual to have actual wins and losses in the hundreds or even thousands of dollars.
So if I were to win say, $800 or $1000 and tip 5-10% of my EV, or $2-$5, I usually get a pretty nasty reaction. Even nastier than not tipping at all. I have had dealers actually say to me,""thanks now I can buy a newspaper", when I tipped a couple bucks. Now lets go the other way. If I sit there and lose $800 or $1000 in 20 to 30 minutes, well....I don't feel much like tipping. I realize it's not the dealers fault, but that's the way it is.
That player might have dropped $3,000 the day before.
Quote: aceofspadesAre you suggesting vigilante serving?
No, but since the convention and expectations implied in the "contract" include a tip, it only seems fair that if one party plans to unilaterally change the terms of the deal, the other party should be informed before the service is performed.
It only seems fair, after all.
Quote: MoscaNo, but since the convention and expectations implied in the "contract" include a tip, it only seems fair that if one party plans to unilaterally change the terms of the deal, the other party should be informed before the service is performed.
It only seems fair, after all.
Why not negotiate a range ahead of time depending upon how well the server attends to your table?
Quote: aceofspadesWhy not negotiate a range ahead of time depending upon how well the server attends to your table?
Hey, I'm a tipper. I tip 20% or more. I've been fortunate in this life, and I believe in sharing it. I don't understand people who don't tip, (True AP players excepted, who are certainly below .1% of gamblers; they are making a living, I am getting a service.)
When it's all over, all I have is my name. I want it to be said with joy.
Quote: MoscaHey, I'm a tipper. I tip 20% or more. I've been fortunate in this life, and I believe in sharing it. I don't understand people who don't tip, (True AP players excepted, who are certainly below .1% of gamblers; they are making a living, I am getting a service.)
When it's all over, all I have is my name. I want it to be said with joy.
I'm a George as well but the statement that there is an implied contract between server and customer such that the customer must tip leaves no contingency for horrible service
Quote: aceofspadesI'm a George as well but the statement that there is an implied contract between server and customer such that the customer must tip leaves no contingency for horrible service
I believe, and I may be wrong but the only time there is a contract for tipping between guest and server is for parties of 6 or more where the restaurant reserves the right to add a "surcharge" onto the bill.
Otherwise tipping is expected but it can never be enforced.......IMVHO
Quote: TomspurI believe, and I may be wrong but the only time there is a contract for tipping between guest and server is for parties of 6 or more where the restaurant reserves the right to add a "surcharge" onto the bill.
Otherwise tipping is expected but it can never be enforced.......IMVHO
Tom...I was referring to Mosca's post:
Quote: MoscaNo, but since the convention and expectations implied in the "contract" include a tip, it only seems fair that if one party plans to unilaterally change the terms of the deal, the other party should be informed before the service is performed.
It only seems fair, after all.
My point is that, if you know that 1) the staff is under compensated hourly because the management expects tips to make up most of the income, and 2) the meal is priced accordingly, then it follows that, assuming the service was fine, you didn't tip because you intend to get tipped service for no tip. If in fact you are NOT attempting to steal service, but that you are opposed to tipping on principle, then principle should also demand that you make the server aware; otherwise you are a thief. Perhaps not legally, but we are only in the court of opinion here.
Quote: BuzzardMosca, wasting your time. Jerks that don't tip, won't tip. Cheap bastards.
Yeah, I know. I'm just taking a jab at that spot inside them where they know it's wrong but do it anyhow. I'm not fooled by the platitudes. I know no one is actually going to do what I suggest; if they did, they wouldn't be able to get over on the single mom serving their meal at the end of a double shift.
