amateur traders beat Wall St. pros trading
January 28th, 2021 at 2:41:56 AM
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.....................
Using reddit's Wall Street Bets as a meeting place they pumped up the stock Gamestop
hedge funds had shorted Gamestop but a mass of little guys pumped it up and threatened the hedge fund's positions
fun to read article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/business/gamestop-wall-street-bets.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Using reddit's Wall Street Bets as a meeting place they pumped up the stock Gamestop
hedge funds had shorted Gamestop but a mass of little guys pumped it up and threatened the hedge fund's positions
fun to read article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/business/gamestop-wall-street-bets.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Please don't feed the trolls
January 28th, 2021 at 3:40:48 AM
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I have a good friend who couldn't resist calling me several times yesterday as he made about £3000 on the day trading these. I fear he's now totally hooked on the easy money to be had from day trading.Quote: lilredrooster.....................
Using reddit's Wall Street Bets as a meeting place they pumped up the stock Gamestop
hedge funds had shorted Gamestop but a mass of little guys pumped it up and threatened the hedge fund's positions
fun to read article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/business/gamestop-wall-street-bets.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
January 28th, 2021 at 6:56:07 AM
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GameStop just hit $414
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 28th, 2021 at 6:58:13 AM
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Quote: darkozGameStop just hit $414
I am very happy that no one took me up on my bet that it would go to $100 before $400.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
January 28th, 2021 at 7:22:08 AM
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Different platforms are shutting down apparently.
Word is Robinhood, TD, Schwab not allowing any more purchases of GameStop or AMC.
Trying to protect the hedge funds?
This is only going to get bigger
Word is Robinhood, TD, Schwab not allowing any more purchases of GameStop or AMC.
Trying to protect the hedge funds?
This is only going to get bigger
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 28th, 2021 at 7:32:11 AM
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Just to see what would happen, I tried to short it. I tried for 1000 shares short just on one of my stock trading accounts, didn't bother to try on the others. No shares available. This is typical, not just for this stock but others, but for this one it might have to do with a straight block on shorting it, at the brokerage.
Then I tried to go long - the first time I tried, it was halted. I tried again just now for 1000 shares long and the order went through, then I cancelled it. I had placed it well below market anyway it was just a test to see if the brokerage would accept the order, which it did.
There's no need to trade risky stocks like this though. With just 50 shares, I booked an easy $500. on AMZN in the pre- early this morning, and if I had let it ride just twenty minutes longer, I could have made $2500., as it hit 3253 just minutes after I sold at 3213. However, after I got the fill at 3203, it dropped to as low as 3198 I think it was - and there's where you separate the amateurs from the pros. I knew it would come back, and put in an order to sell for 10 points higher and held to it. An amateur would have panicked and either sold at a loss, or lowered his sell order.
Again, as far as trading: When I put in an order I know it's a good price. I don't waiver. At most, if it plummets, I will average in more shares, and sooner or later, I always make money. Every time. Part of it has to do with picking the right stocks, and the rest is timing, patience, and knowledge of what price to set for the buy and the sell. Sufficient buying power and not getting greedy are key too.
I have a bottom fishing order in for trading shares of TSLA at 805, if it dips that low. I will cancel it now, as the lowest it hit after I placed it was around 810, and now it's all the way up to 837 or so.
Meantime, I am confident that my long term AMZN and TSLA will continue to rise. Just stick with blue chip tech stocks, or blue chip other stocks, whether for investing, or trading. Stay away from crap like GME, AMC, CYDY and the like. I try to avoid negative -EPS companies, period, let alone hyped crap like this.
Then I tried to go long - the first time I tried, it was halted. I tried again just now for 1000 shares long and the order went through, then I cancelled it. I had placed it well below market anyway it was just a test to see if the brokerage would accept the order, which it did.
There's no need to trade risky stocks like this though. With just 50 shares, I booked an easy $500. on AMZN in the pre- early this morning, and if I had let it ride just twenty minutes longer, I could have made $2500., as it hit 3253 just minutes after I sold at 3213. However, after I got the fill at 3203, it dropped to as low as 3198 I think it was - and there's where you separate the amateurs from the pros. I knew it would come back, and put in an order to sell for 10 points higher and held to it. An amateur would have panicked and either sold at a loss, or lowered his sell order.
Again, as far as trading: When I put in an order I know it's a good price. I don't waiver. At most, if it plummets, I will average in more shares, and sooner or later, I always make money. Every time. Part of it has to do with picking the right stocks, and the rest is timing, patience, and knowledge of what price to set for the buy and the sell. Sufficient buying power and not getting greedy are key too.
I have a bottom fishing order in for trading shares of TSLA at 805, if it dips that low. I will cancel it now, as the lowest it hit after I placed it was around 810, and now it's all the way up to 837 or so.
Meantime, I am confident that my long term AMZN and TSLA will continue to rise. Just stick with blue chip tech stocks, or blue chip other stocks, whether for investing, or trading. Stay away from crap like GME, AMC, CYDY and the like. I try to avoid negative -EPS companies, period, let alone hyped crap like this.
Last edited by: MDawg on Jan 28, 2021
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
January 28th, 2021 at 8:45:54 AM
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GameStop plunged 60% after restrictions put on their trades.
Apparently they favored short sales but not buys
Hedge fund managers putting in a fix?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/robinhood-app-td-ameritrade-restrict-trading-of-gamestop-amc-stock/
Apparently they favored short sales but not buys
Hedge fund managers putting in a fix?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/robinhood-app-td-ameritrade-restrict-trading-of-gamestop-amc-stock/
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 28th, 2021 at 1:45:44 PM
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/markets/robinhood-lawsuits-gamestop-amc-restrictions.amp
First lawsuits against Robinhood initiated.
I expect a slew of suits. Probably a class action.
First lawsuits against Robinhood initiated.
I expect a slew of suits. Probably a class action.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 28th, 2021 at 1:58:38 PM
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Quote: darkozGameStop plunged 60% after restrictions put on their trades.
Apparently they favored short sales but not buys
Hedge fund managers putting in a fix?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/robinhood-app-td-ameritrade-restrict-trading-of-gamestop-amc-stock/
you're suggesting that the stock market - Wall Street - the backbone of our financial system is rigged?
I'm totally shocked that anybody could even think such a thing
Please don't feed the trolls
January 29th, 2021 at 6:06:41 AM
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Quote: darkozFirst lawsuits against Robinhood initiated.
I honestly don't get why anybody would restrict those trades. Isn't it supposed to be a free market?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 29th, 2021 at 6:27:53 AM
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Quote: WizardI honestly don't get why anybody would restrict those trades. Isn't it supposed to be a free market?
Yes.... but apparently the owner of Robinhood had some sort of interest in the hedge funds which were being killed by the Reddit attack. So as opposed to thinking it just provided a service, these companies are not as independent as we would think. This is third hand from younger son......
January 29th, 2021 at 6:48:47 AM
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.............................
it's a gigantic issue for Wall Street and for the SEC
the reddit "Wall Street Bets" gang has a play in their playbook now
they could gang up and push up many stocks that are being shorted by hedge funds and the funds will be caught in a short squeeze
if they buy to close out their short position that will push the stock even higher and make it worse for other funds still short
not to mention that in this situation the funds that buy to get out would lose a ton of money
if the Street somehow protects those funds it looks really, really bad - especially since these funds make money on the misery of others when shorting
*
it's a gigantic issue for Wall Street and for the SEC
the reddit "Wall Street Bets" gang has a play in their playbook now
they could gang up and push up many stocks that are being shorted by hedge funds and the funds will be caught in a short squeeze
if they buy to close out their short position that will push the stock even higher and make it worse for other funds still short
not to mention that in this situation the funds that buy to get out would lose a ton of money
if the Street somehow protects those funds it looks really, really bad - especially since these funds make money on the misery of others when shorting
*
Please don't feed the trolls
January 29th, 2021 at 6:52:30 AM
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Quote: lilredroosterthe reddit "Wall Street Bets" gang has a play in their playbook now
they could gang up and push up many stocks that are being shorted by hedge funds and the funds will be caught in a short squeeze
if they buy to close out their short position that will push the stock even higher and make it worse for other funds still short
not to mention that in this situation the funds would lose a ton of money
This is getting out of my area, but this would seem to me a part of the gamble of a short sale.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 29th, 2021 at 6:57:31 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster.............................
it's a gigantic issue for Wall Street and for the SEC
the reddit "Wall Street Bets" gang has a play in their playbook now
they could gang up and push up many stocks that are being shorted by hedge funds and the funds will be caught in a short squeeze
if they buy to close out their short position that will push the stock even higher and make it worse for other funds still short
not to mention that in this situation the funds that buy to get out would lose a ton of money
if the Street somehow protects those funds it looks really, really bad - especially since these funds make money on the misery of others when shorting
*
If this becomes an ongoing thing, how will Reddit know what stocks hedge funds are shorting?
I thought Melvin capital said something publicly about shorting GME this time. Obviously they won’t be doing that in the future.
January 29th, 2021 at 7:00:49 AM
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Quote: WizardThis is getting out of my area, but this would seem to me a part of the gamble of a short sale.
yes, you're correct - the problem for the funds is that this is a new and powerful gang they're facing off against
and they have billions invested in some of their shorts
I think it's unlikely but the hedge fund Long Term Capital went down in 1998 - there were massive losses (it was run by a Nobel prize winner) there was a fear, perhaps unrealistic, that it could bring the entire economy down with it
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Please don't feed the trolls
January 29th, 2021 at 7:03:59 AM
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Quote: gamerfreakIf this becomes an ongoing thing, how will Reddit know what stocks hedge funds are shorting?
that stuff becomes known - journalists - loose lips, rumors, chat rooms, etc.
and I think the funds may be required to publicly post some info by the SEC
*
Please don't feed the trolls
January 29th, 2021 at 7:12:23 AM
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I pay it minimal attention, but "Short Interest" is a fundamental that indicates what percentage of a stock is currently shorted. This metric is freely available on Seeking Alpha, and likely many others. I'm sure somewhere, you can find a stock screener that will filter stocks based on Short Interest.Quote: gamerfreakIf this becomes an ongoing thing, how will Reddit know what stocks hedge funds are shorting?
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
January 29th, 2021 at 7:33:48 AM
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Quote: JoemanI pay it minimal attention, but "Short Interest" is a fundamental that indicates what percentage of a stock is currently shorted. This metric is freely available on Seeking Alpha, and likely many others. I'm sure somewhere, you can find a stock screener that will filter stocks based on Short Interest.
Correct. Before this new Reddit attack, high short interest implied ‘those in the know’ expected the stock to go down. Joe Blow (me!) would AVOID stocks with lots of shorted shares!
This is going to be super interesting from a legal standpoint. Will this type of stock price manipulation end up being a legal technique, or a felony? I’ve heard 100% opinions on both sides!
January 29th, 2021 at 8:31:15 AM
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Quote: JoemanI pay it minimal attention, but "Short Interest" is a fundamental that indicates what percentage of a stock is currently shorted. This metric is freely available on Seeking Alpha, and likely many others. I'm sure somewhere, you can find a stock screener that will filter stocks based on Short Interest.
Thanks I figured there might be some sort of technical indication
January 29th, 2021 at 8:32:35 AM
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My admittedly shallow knowledge of the crash of 1929 was that margin calls - borrowing money against the current price of your stock results in calls to make up the difference when the price goes down - was what got the avalanche started.
Shorting stocks that go up, and borrowing money to pay for the investment - isn't that the same thing only in reverse?
And isn't this whole mess essentially a manipulation of the market in the extremely short term having nothing to do with the underlying company? Pick a stock, any stock, and just keep hitting on it - in either direction, short or long - and turn a profit on the totally artificial swing?
Shorting stocks that go up, and borrowing money to pay for the investment - isn't that the same thing only in reverse?
And isn't this whole mess essentially a manipulation of the market in the extremely short term having nothing to do with the underlying company? Pick a stock, any stock, and just keep hitting on it - in either direction, short or long - and turn a profit on the totally artificial swing?
January 29th, 2021 at 1:16:51 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOYes.... but apparently the owner of Robinhood had some sort of interest in the hedge funds which were being killed by the Reddit attack. So as opposed to thinking it just provided a service, these companies are not as independent as we would think. This is third hand from younger son......
You have a link for that? I hadn’t seen that theory. I’m not one to defend Robinhood. They sell their customers flow to hedge funds that front run it. Disgusting.
But, the explanation I read is that Robinhood’s prime brokerage loan was undercollateralized because all the buys would take T+3 to settle. So they actually couldn’t effectuate more buys until the pledged available cash (they didn’t have enough because of T+3) or other assets. They then quickly raised $1b to ameliorate the issue overnight. Not really the actions of someone in cahoots with the short sellers.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
January 29th, 2021 at 2:51:46 PM
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Quote: unJonYou have a link for that? I hadn’t seen that theory. I’m not one to defend Robinhood. They sell their customers flow to hedge funds that front run it. Disgusting.
But, the explanation I read is that Robinhood’s prime brokerage loan was undercollateralized because all the buys would take T+3 to settle. So they actually couldn’t effectuate more buys until the pledged available cash (they didn’t have enough because of T+3) or other assets. They then quickly raised $1b to ameliorate the issue overnight. Not really the actions of someone in cahoots with the short sellers.
No link. Just phone call with son. Your explanation sounds reasonable. It is all so disgusting to me.
January 29th, 2021 at 3:01:01 PM
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To see how disgusting it is Robinhood limited orders
How much?
After refusing new orders yesterday they reopened ordering with a five stock limit IN AGGREGATE.
So if you already owned three shares of GameStop you could only buy two more.
They lowered THAT to just being able to own one share.
Let me repeat. If you want to own shares of GameStop via Robinhood you can only buy one share period.
BTW they are not limiting hedge fund managers in any way.
There seems like a fix in to me.
Here is the link. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/1/29/22256419/robinhood-limits-wall-street-bets-stock-buys
How much?
After refusing new orders yesterday they reopened ordering with a five stock limit IN AGGREGATE.
So if you already owned three shares of GameStop you could only buy two more.
They lowered THAT to just being able to own one share.
Let me repeat. If you want to own shares of GameStop via Robinhood you can only buy one share period.
BTW they are not limiting hedge fund managers in any way.
There seems like a fix in to me.
Here is the link. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/1/29/22256419/robinhood-limits-wall-street-bets-stock-buys
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 29th, 2021 at 3:01:01 PM
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...............
this is what is really, really, really bad -
from a CNBC story from 2 hours ago:
"On Thursday, Robinhood told clients it was ONLY ALLOWED TO SELL SHARES, not buy new ones, in certain securities that were garnering social media attention from Reddit crowds."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/robinhood-is-still-severely-limiting-trading-gamestop-holders-can-only-buy-one-additional-share.html
*
this is what is really, really, really bad -
from a CNBC story from 2 hours ago:
"On Thursday, Robinhood told clients it was ONLY ALLOWED TO SELL SHARES, not buy new ones, in certain securities that were garnering social media attention from Reddit crowds."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/robinhood-is-still-severely-limiting-trading-gamestop-holders-can-only-buy-one-additional-share.html
*
Please don't feed the trolls
January 29th, 2021 at 3:13:27 PM
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Is Robin Hood the only place to buy these shares?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
January 29th, 2021 at 3:26:09 PM
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Quote: billryanIs Robin Hood the only place to buy these shares?
I have a TD Ameritrade acct
It's so convenient and easy to buy stocks and mutual funds.
I dont know about puts, calls, shorts, margins, ect
Just a ploppy
I am pretty sure I can buy GME with no issues and have the trade go through instantly when the market is open because I buy out of a cash account.
I fund the account then I buy stocks
I really love my TD app
It makes it so easy it's a bit scary.
I think Robinhood is popular for buying partial shares. Take Amazon. 1 share is over 3k. I actually own 1 share. Lol
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
January 29th, 2021 at 3:31:05 PM
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the survival of Robinhood is in question because there are no minimum deposits and they charge no commission on trades. And they allow these same easy entry people to buy on margin.
liquidity is a question mark, investors came up with a much needed 1 billion dollars yesterday
liquidity is a question mark, investors came up with a much needed 1 billion dollars yesterday
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
January 29th, 2021 at 3:35:19 PM
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Quote: terapinedI have a TD Ameritrade acct
It's so convenient and easy to buy stocks and mutual funds.
I dont know about puts, calls, shorts, margins, ect
Just a ploppy
I am pretty sure I can buy GME with no issues and have the trade go through instantly when the market is open because I buy out of a cash account.
I fund the account then I buy stocks
I really love my TD app
It makes it so easy it's a bit scary.
I think Robinhood is popular for buying partial shares. Take Amazon. 1 share is over 3k. I actually own 1 share. Lol
Ed.... I am pretty sure there were times over the past few days you would not have been able to buy GME even if you had cash in the account to cover the purchase. They I believe did just what Robinhood did, but maybe not for as long.
I don't think anyone has answered me yet...... If you sold your GME on the Robinhood platform, and Robinhood customers were not allowed to buy GME, ...... while typing I figured it out..... It would be bought by a customer on a platform that was allowing trades....
Just as a reminder.... the exchanges (NYSE, NASDAQ) do halt trading BOTH WAYS when certain pre determined up or down percentages are reached. I am against that too, but have no real problem with it as it is clearly known by any investor when they are involved in buying or selling stocks. This was the companies (Robinhood, TD) making their own rules ON THE FLY!
January 29th, 2021 at 4:24:02 PM
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Every once in awhile someone finds an untruth, or imbalance, in the system. Michael Milken found something like this when he realized how much safer some junk bonds were and was able to exploit it . This is no different.
Robin Hood is running a huge, albeit legal, pump and dump and, like they always do, sooner or later someone (a lot of someone’s) will be the LFI and be stuck holding the bag when the stock(s) return to what is their true fair value.
What they do needs to remain legal or you send the message that nobody is allowed to make money except for large funds
I’ve been trading for nearly 27 years and remember the housing bubble, the internet bubble, and most recently the Covid crash. What’s different is that now you have a bunch of inexperienced millennials who are gambling and neither trading nor investing. I already know how this is going to end for most of the people trading via Robinhood. History repeats itself.
Robin Hood is running a huge, albeit legal, pump and dump and, like they always do, sooner or later someone (a lot of someone’s) will be the LFI and be stuck holding the bag when the stock(s) return to what is their true fair value.
What they do needs to remain legal or you send the message that nobody is allowed to make money except for large funds
I’ve been trading for nearly 27 years and remember the housing bubble, the internet bubble, and most recently the Covid crash. What’s different is that now you have a bunch of inexperienced millennials who are gambling and neither trading nor investing. I already know how this is going to end for most of the people trading via Robinhood. History repeats itself.
The best things in life are not free.
January 29th, 2021 at 6:02:33 PM
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I found https://www.highshortinterest.com/ to be a good place to look at short interest.
January 29th, 2021 at 6:34:57 PM
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99% of day traders lose money....unless you listen to the forums. Then 99% make money.
January 29th, 2021 at 7:19:47 PM
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Shark Tanks Kevin O'Leary:
(about shorting)
“You now run a new risk: that these effective social media vigilantes are going to come after you and squeeze you as a short,” O’Leary said, a reference to the popular Reddit forum WallStreetBets. “That’s going to make a lot of hedge funds think a second time before they try and go short stocks, which I think is great.”
I agree.
(about shorting)
“You now run a new risk: that these effective social media vigilantes are going to come after you and squeeze you as a short,” O’Leary said, a reference to the popular Reddit forum WallStreetBets. “That’s going to make a lot of hedge funds think a second time before they try and go short stocks, which I think is great.”
I agree.
January 29th, 2021 at 11:10:43 PM
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.....................
a different but similar subreddit "Satoshi Street Bets" ganged up and pumped up the cryptocurrency "Dogecoin" and it soared over 800% before falling to gain of about 150% for the day
these gangs are so powerful - they apparently decided to pump it up randomly
its' market capitalization increased by more than $7 billion in 24 hours
Elon Musk is involved in this - cheering on the gangs on twitter and elsewhere
he hates short sellers because they caused him trouble in the past by shorting TSLA
he has previously been disciplined by the SEC for remarks he made about stocks
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/dogecoin-cryptocurrency-rises-over-400percent-after-reddit-group-talks-it-up.html
a different but similar subreddit "Satoshi Street Bets" ganged up and pumped up the cryptocurrency "Dogecoin" and it soared over 800% before falling to gain of about 150% for the day
these gangs are so powerful - they apparently decided to pump it up randomly
its' market capitalization increased by more than $7 billion in 24 hours
Elon Musk is involved in this - cheering on the gangs on twitter and elsewhere
he hates short sellers because they caused him trouble in the past by shorting TSLA
he has previously been disciplined by the SEC for remarks he made about stocks
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/dogecoin-cryptocurrency-rises-over-400percent-after-reddit-group-talks-it-up.html
Please don't feed the trolls
January 30th, 2021 at 12:00:36 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster.....................
a different but similar subreddit "Satoshi Street Bets" ganged up and pumped up the cryptocurrency "Dogecoin" and it soared over 800% before falling to gain of about 150% for the day
these gangs are so powerful - they apparently decided to pump it up randomly
its' market capitalization increased by more than $7 billion in 24 hours
Elon Musk is involved in this - cheering on the gangs on twitter and elsewhere
he hates short sellers because they caused him trouble in the past by shorting TSLA
he has previously been disciplined by the SEC for remarks he made about stocks
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/dogecoin-cryptocurrency-rises-over-400percent-after-reddit-group-talks-it-up.html
I'm sorry but most short sellers are #@@$$.
They get what they deserve
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 30th, 2021 at 4:54:39 AM
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I have no problem with an individual who thinks a stock is going to go down deciding to make a short play.
Hedge funds who go all out and actually do extra things to make the stock go down - that I think could be reined in. That business of more stocks being shorted than actually exist was a surprise to a lot of people.
Hedge funds who go all out and actually do extra things to make the stock go down - that I think could be reined in. That business of more stocks being shorted than actually exist was a surprise to a lot of people.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
January 30th, 2021 at 5:10:01 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitI have no problem with an individual who thinks a stock is going to go down deciding to make a short play.
short sellers are often considered the dark side of the market - the short sellers are looked at as the bad guys
I'm not so sure that's accurate
without shorts sellers everything would be buy, buy, buy or sell only to take a profit or cut losses
it seems to me that without short sellers, the market looks even more like a Ponzi scheme than it already does
I think short sellers may serve a purpose in smacking down extremely overvalued stocks
that seems to me to make the market a more efficient estimate of true value
*
Please don't feed the trolls
January 30th, 2021 at 6:32:46 AM
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Much of this thread reads like a bunch of third graders discussing physics. i'd thought a few posts were intended to be humourous, but now I'm not so sure.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
January 30th, 2021 at 6:38:39 AM
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Exactly. And pump and dump schemes are the most notorious for ripping off the uneducated day trader. When there is no value, you cannot create value by shouting really loud. Tulips. Beanie babies. Etc. Now that the short squeeze is mostly over, the only question left is who's going to be left holding their overpriced shares when the price becomes rational again?Quote: TDVegas99% of day traders lose money....unless you listen to the forums. Then 99% make money.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
January 30th, 2021 at 8:00:28 AM
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EDIT: Before replying to this post read the next one as well
A business going public is trying to raise capital to help finance it's further success
People who buy those stocks are putting their money out to share that success
No company would sell short stocks. No company would offer stocks promoting their failure.
No investor wants the company they invested in to fail. No investor would loan out their shares to a short seller who is hoping to ruin the company.
Short sellers are borrowing shares for a fee from financial institutions that are using the shares held in their possession. Those are the investors shares being loaned out without their knowledge or even permission (BTW-MDawg did correctly state that if you put a large GTC on your order the shares cannot be borrowed. The financial institution could not settle a GTC if those shares were loaned out so they are prevented from loaning them)
So basically financial institutions are milking the cow and slaughtering it for beef. They are making a borrow fee while holding onto investors shares without them knowing about it.
Imagine how you would feel if you knew YOUR SHARES of a company you believe will make you money were being loaned out by your stock trader to someone who believes that your stock will fail and who actively works against your self-interest.
So what happens when the stock does phenomenal in. Quick time? Those who "borrowed" (not brought but borrowed. They don't own anything) have to give back the borrowed stock at cost.
If the cost went sky high and the borrower doesn't have the money to cover, hmmm? Who is on the hook? I mean, who loaned out these shares without asking?
That's right, the fiduciary company that loaned them out. Who's interest would it be for a company like Robinhood to say, no buying, only selling?
Come on, Robinhood didn't want to be on the hook for all the borrowed shares that short sellers were going to say they couldn't cover.
So they rigged it to protect their financial ass. And it worked. GameStop dropped over three hundred bucks in a few hours.
But it's so obvious they may not escape sec, government and investor scrutiny.
We will see.
A business going public is trying to raise capital to help finance it's further success
People who buy those stocks are putting their money out to share that success
No company would sell short stocks. No company would offer stocks promoting their failure.
No investor wants the company they invested in to fail. No investor would loan out their shares to a short seller who is hoping to ruin the company.
Short sellers are borrowing shares for a fee from financial institutions that are using the shares held in their possession. Those are the investors shares being loaned out without their knowledge or even permission (BTW-MDawg did correctly state that if you put a large GTC on your order the shares cannot be borrowed. The financial institution could not settle a GTC if those shares were loaned out so they are prevented from loaning them)
So basically financial institutions are milking the cow and slaughtering it for beef. They are making a borrow fee while holding onto investors shares without them knowing about it.
Imagine how you would feel if you knew YOUR SHARES of a company you believe will make you money were being loaned out by your stock trader to someone who believes that your stock will fail and who actively works against your self-interest.
So what happens when the stock does phenomenal in. Quick time? Those who "borrowed" (not brought but borrowed. They don't own anything) have to give back the borrowed stock at cost.
If the cost went sky high and the borrower doesn't have the money to cover, hmmm? Who is on the hook? I mean, who loaned out these shares without asking?
That's right, the fiduciary company that loaned them out. Who's interest would it be for a company like Robinhood to say, no buying, only selling?
Come on, Robinhood didn't want to be on the hook for all the borrowed shares that short sellers were going to say they couldn't cover.
So they rigged it to protect their financial ass. And it worked. GameStop dropped over three hundred bucks in a few hours.
But it's so obvious they may not escape sec, government and investor scrutiny.
We will see.
Last edited by: darkoz on Jan 30, 2021
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 30th, 2021 at 8:35:31 AM
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Andrew Left and his company Citron may be names you are hearing about with this mess.
Let me explain the significance.
What Andrew Left claims is he helps the market by exposing companies that are going to fail and announces them through his "research company" Citron.
Citron has correctly predicted stocks that failed giving them credibility.
So when Citron says a stock will fail, that alone usually causes it to fail.
In essence, Citron didn't discover failing stocks so much as CAUSING THEM TO FAIL.
Oh BTW, forgot to mention that Citron owner Andrew Left ALWAYS takes a short position in the stock he is announcing will fail prior to his announcement.
Here is his pronouncement on GameStop the day before the Reddit community piled on. I guarantee many of those people were investors who got burned by Andrew Left on other stocks.
This is what happens when you profit off other people misery.
Let me explain the significance.
What Andrew Left claims is he helps the market by exposing companies that are going to fail and announces them through his "research company" Citron.
Citron has correctly predicted stocks that failed giving them credibility.
So when Citron says a stock will fail, that alone usually causes it to fail.
In essence, Citron didn't discover failing stocks so much as CAUSING THEM TO FAIL.
Oh BTW, forgot to mention that Citron owner Andrew Left ALWAYS takes a short position in the stock he is announcing will fail prior to his announcement.
Here is his pronouncement on GameStop the day before the Reddit community piled on. I guarantee many of those people were investors who got burned by Andrew Left on other stocks.
This is what happens when you profit off other people misery.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 30th, 2021 at 8:37:12 AM
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dark.... have a friend who loans out his shares in a small company for a fee..... the brokerage does NOT do it without his permission.... Are you saying brokerages loan out shares without the knowledge or consent of the owners of the shares? (I'll bet if they do it is probably in the fine print of your brokerage agreement...) If so, why do they pay my friend to borrow his?
January 30th, 2021 at 8:55:51 AM
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Quote: HullabalooShark Tanks Kevin O'Leary:
(about shorting)
“You now run a new risk: that these effective social media vigilantes are going to come after you and squeeze you as a short,” O’Leary said, a reference to the popular Reddit forum WallStreetBets. “That’s going to make a lot of hedge funds think a second time before they try and go short stocks, which I think is great.”
I agree.
Yep. No question. Guys like famed short seller Jim Chanos (TESLA) will think twice before they go on any financial news network spouting about their latest short.
Good.
Not only was he wrong on Tesla...but he had free reign to trash the company unfettered. Mark my words, he will now be silent.
January 30th, 2021 at 9:00:58 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOdark.... have a friend who loans out his shares in a small company for a fee..... the brokerage does NOT do it without his permission.... Are you saying brokerages loan out shares without the knowledge or consent of the owners of the shares? (I'll bet if they do it is probably in the fine print of your brokerage agreement...) If so, why do they pay my friend to borrow his?
Yes, it's buried deep within their terms that they can do it so from a legal perspective they have received your permission
Most investors would not be happy to lend out shares to people actively hoping for their failure imo.
It would be like betting pass line, loaning some guy chips to put on don't pass and then he screams at the shooter "YOU'RE GONNA FAIL, CRAP OUT MAN CRAP OUT"
Would you keep loaning that guy chips?
(Maybe not the greatest analogy but until something better comes along)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 30th, 2021 at 10:05:10 AM
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I've had stocks that Citron shorted. They don't just short it, they bash it too. They wrote a big article stating a bunch of problems, many of which were completely false.
I found this online today:
"Melvin Capital has closed out of its short position in GameStop, incurring billions of dollars in losses. Citron said by video it has closed out of most of its GameStop short position at a 100% loss 3 days ago"
I have no idea if it's true, and there are indications that Citron is lying.
As for Robin Hood, they are claiming they had to do what they did because of regulatory requirements. Who knows if that's true, but it looks pretty sleazy no matter what since shorts could continue while buyers could not. And it probably isn't a coincidence that one of the shorts was a major backer for Robin Hood.
And I've also read through a lot of wallstreetbets on reddit and it appears this isn't just a short issue, it's far more than that going back to the Great Recession and more. Back then the banks screwed up big time, yet the treasury made them whole and not a single person was indicted for their malfeasance. And everything is set up so the "big boys" can run the show, and also have all kinds of perks to make sure they pay very little in taxes. Meanwhile, scores and scores of Americans got waked and lost everything. So part of this is an attempt to give "regular folks" a chance.
I don't see this ending anytime soon unless regulatory agencies do something, which would seem to be good for retail investors.
I found this online today:
"Melvin Capital has closed out of its short position in GameStop, incurring billions of dollars in losses. Citron said by video it has closed out of most of its GameStop short position at a 100% loss 3 days ago"
I have no idea if it's true, and there are indications that Citron is lying.
As for Robin Hood, they are claiming they had to do what they did because of regulatory requirements. Who knows if that's true, but it looks pretty sleazy no matter what since shorts could continue while buyers could not. And it probably isn't a coincidence that one of the shorts was a major backer for Robin Hood.
And I've also read through a lot of wallstreetbets on reddit and it appears this isn't just a short issue, it's far more than that going back to the Great Recession and more. Back then the banks screwed up big time, yet the treasury made them whole and not a single person was indicted for their malfeasance. And everything is set up so the "big boys" can run the show, and also have all kinds of perks to make sure they pay very little in taxes. Meanwhile, scores and scores of Americans got waked and lost everything. So part of this is an attempt to give "regular folks" a chance.
I don't see this ending anytime soon unless regulatory agencies do something, which would seem to be good for retail investors.
January 30th, 2021 at 10:33:08 AM
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......................
manipulation of the market, as apparently was done in this instance is flat out wrong - and there should be punishment for market manipulation
and the big guys should never have a significant advantage - I don't know if that will ever change
but to me if shorts are not allowed it's kind of like this:
the Chiefs are -3.5 in the Super Bowl
so the book says to you - you can bet the Chiefs to win but you can't bet on the Chiefs to lose (or the Bucs to win)
you can take your money out after you win if you win
or if with 5 minutes left and its very likely you will lose we will sell your bet to someone and you can get some of the money back
shorts ensure that the price is related to earnings, prospects, debt levels, revenue, etc.
without them it seems like everybody would be betting on numbers that are not related to anything
if this guy - Chanos - is touting shorts that shouldn't be shorted the stock will go up and he will get creamed as will everybody who listened to him
the truth will eventually come out
and he will lose his credibility and his audience
and what about put options - the bet that a stock will go below a certain point
in a market without shorts would put options also not be allowed?
*
manipulation of the market, as apparently was done in this instance is flat out wrong - and there should be punishment for market manipulation
and the big guys should never have a significant advantage - I don't know if that will ever change
but to me if shorts are not allowed it's kind of like this:
the Chiefs are -3.5 in the Super Bowl
so the book says to you - you can bet the Chiefs to win but you can't bet on the Chiefs to lose (or the Bucs to win)
you can take your money out after you win if you win
or if with 5 minutes left and its very likely you will lose we will sell your bet to someone and you can get some of the money back
shorts ensure that the price is related to earnings, prospects, debt levels, revenue, etc.
without them it seems like everybody would be betting on numbers that are not related to anything
if this guy - Chanos - is touting shorts that shouldn't be shorted the stock will go up and he will get creamed as will everybody who listened to him
the truth will eventually come out
and he will lose his credibility and his audience
and what about put options - the bet that a stock will go below a certain point
in a market without shorts would put options also not be allowed?
*
Please don't feed the trolls
January 30th, 2021 at 10:58:48 AM
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Quote: TDVegas99% of day traders lose money....unless you listen to the forums. Then 99% make money.
I can believe that. I have yet to meet the person who loses at raked poker ... but somebody must be.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 30th, 2021 at 11:16:32 AM
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Every poker player plays an above average game.Quote: WizardI can believe that. I have yet to meet the person who loses at raked poker ... but somebody must be.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
January 30th, 2021 at 11:19:20 AM
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I don't believe that 99% of day traders lose money. What I've found is people usually give up a good job to day trade, find it is more work and much harder than they realized, come to appreciate the benefits their job offered and return to work. It's not that they lost money, it's that they can make more elsewhere.
I'd imagine those that lose out were under-funded and shouldn't have been in the game in the first place.
I'd imagine those that lose out were under-funded and shouldn't have been in the game in the first place.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
January 30th, 2021 at 11:31:48 AM
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Quote: billryanI don't believe that 99% of day traders lose money. What I've found is people usually give up a good job to day trade, find it is more work and much harder than they realized, come to appreciate the benefits their job offered and return to work. It's not that they lost money, it's that they can make more elsewhere.
I'd imagine those that lose out were under-funded and shouldn't have been in the game in the first place.
I doubt it. As soon as they go long or short, they are already fighting and at a disadvantage to the spread. Throw in short term capital gains taxed as regular income, under funded, etc....and I would believe 95% to 99% fail.
Hell, even Warren Buffet admits he would go broke trying to day trade. Yet Johnny Stockman makes a go of it? Rare individual makes it, imo.
January 30th, 2021 at 2:43:47 PM
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FWIW, the guy credited with starting the ball rolling, Kieth Gill a.k.a. Roaring Kitten, is neither an amateur nor a day trader. From what a saw on his YouTube videos he comes across a mensch and pretty smart. It's worth checking out the 10 minute video where he explains his approach to investing. There's also one from back in August where he goes in to detail on why GameStop is a good bet.
My goal of being well informed conflicts with my goal of remaining sane.
