What are your gambling leaks?

Everybody says that they only engage in +EV play, but I doubt that is true.

What forms of gambling do you enjoy, despite it being -EV?

I like throwing down a few small sports bets (even though I'm bad at it) and playing small stakes Texas hold em with alcohol in my system.

$1 Craps at a crowded table is also quite fun, and dirt cheap if you just stick to pass/Don't pass with odds. You can play for hours on just $20-$30 (and get all that free booze)

I work full time so enjoying my time spent gambling is just as important as AP-ing. If I was concerned with making as much money as possible, I'd probably just pick up a 2nd job.

I think the first year I got into football I bet on the hawks most games, regardless of the line. Luckily it was the year they won the superbowl.

All my gambling is at -EV games: high limit slots and craps.

Sure, I hate to lose, and overall I do lose.

But not all the time.

Hey, it's stimulation, it's recreation, it's something I enjoy, and the best thing is I only risk losing money (something I have earned and saved quite a bit of over the years, so it's really no big deal).

I could have spent an equivalent amount on pursuing another hobby, but the hobbies that I'd want to take up would probably cause me to incur a risk I'd rather not undertake.

Sky diving / base jumping, car / boat racing, cheating on my wife: all would offer stimulation, but oh what a potential price I might have to pay when things go south, as they often do.

I don't mind tilting against windmills.

Scratch off lottery tickets. I only get ones that are crosswords or bingo and take a while to scratch off, usually I'll spend 30 mins on one while watching TV. A $3 ticket with an EV of ~$1.50, that's cheap entertainment in my book.

I only do this maybe once a week. My last 2 tickets won $50.

When we go on trips and have bigger plays... We'll sometimes "relax" and throw some low limit craps and drink to have some fun. Also do the same with some VP, though I can't bring myself to play anything less than .25 because if I hit a $200 royal, I think I'd hate myself.

Quote: MrV

All my gambling is at -EV games: high limit slots and craps.

Sure, I hate to lose, and overall I do lose.

But not all the time.

Hey, it's stimulation, it's recreation, it's something I enjoy, and the best thing is I only risk losing money (something I have earned and saved quite a bit of over the years, so it's really no big deal).

I could have spent an equivalent amount on pursuing another hobby, but the hobbies that I'd want to take up would probably cause me to incur a risk I'd rather not undertake.

Sky diving / base jumping, car / boat racing, cheating on my wife: all would offer stimulation, but oh what a potential price I might have to pay when things go south, as they often do.

I don't mind tilting against windmills.

You're a degenerate. The funny thing is, you have constantly called me an idiot whether on this forum or another. How in the hell can you go and call me an idiot or something similar when you're just a degenerate losing all of his money? The fact of the matter is, you're the idiot. For every other AP on here knowingly playing a -EV game, you guys also have problems. You guys are one step closer to becoming a degenerate. Once you do that, you're not a winning player anymore, you're just a degenerate gambler looking for an excuse to get action in with things like "Well, it's just a hobby and i enjoy it, i would waste money doing other hobbies I enjoy" or "I just do it recreationally", but in the end those are just excuses you tell yourself so you can be a degenerate. Even if people AP more than they play -EV games, it doesn't matter, you now crossed the side from a winning player to a losing player and it's just a matter of time.

If I dont think I have an edge, I never touch any other game whatsoever, i just don't see the point in -ev gambling. I have no interest whatsoever. Even when I bet sports years back, i was trying to backtest algorithms and systems to see if long term I had an edge. I would think of a strategy and backtest it by going back in time and recording every game I saw to see if the theory indeed worked. Sure it's still a small sample size, but the principle was still there and it did well. The point is, no bet was placed until I really thought I had some type of edge. I do still think sports handicapping has potential and could be an AP move, but it just doesnt intrigue me enough to find out in the long run in case im wrong, so i just stopped with it.

Even when Im counting blackjack, i cringe every time i have to play heads up knowing im at a disadvantage off the top. If something is -EV, it just gives me no enjoyment or interest whatsoever. I think many on this forum have serious gambling problems.

I wouldn't say I have "Gambling Leaks" but I would say I make mistakes. I've made some clown mistakes with progressives. Playing too fast and making the wrong hold in VP. Other mistakes as well like thinking some girl is interested in me at 2 am in the Casino and forgetting they are all hookers. The mistake that really upsets me is when I miss my Free Play or forget about one of them or forget to go get a bunch of free food and let my comp coupons expire. The problem is when you start having over 10k in free play a month and a ton of comp you tend to make some mistakes... especially the older you get.

Quote: MrV

All my gambling is at -EV games: high limit slots and craps.

Sure, I hate to lose, and overall I do lose.

But not all the time.

Hey, it's stimulation, it's recreation, it's something I enjoy, and the best thing is I only risk losing money (something I have earned and saved quite a bit of over the years, so it's really no big deal).

I could have spent an equivalent amount on pursuing another hobby, but the hobbies that I'd want to take up would probably cause me to incur a risk I'd rather not undertake.

Sky diving / base jumping, car / boat racing, cheating on my wife: all would offer stimulation, but oh what a potential price I might have to pay when things go south, as they often do.

I don't mind tilting against windmills.

Not all the Time??? Gambling is one long session... it isn't I won today and lost yesterday so I'm a winner today. Your money... do what you want with it. I don't understand playing the bad game when the good game is right next door? I think you have to admit that a hobby is different compared to playing a losing game and giving an evil empire your dough. Sky Diving and the others aren't the same as losing money on plays where your supposed to lose. Cheating on your WIfe??? Completely different... come on!? Spending money on a hobby like flying remote control airplanes is not the same thing as falling into the dice pit or Reels with no way to win.

Quote: ZenKinG

You're a degenerate. The funny thing is, you have constantly called me an idiot whether on this forum or another. How in the hell can you go and call me an idiot or something similar when you're just a degenerate losing all of his money? The fact of the matter is, you're the idiot. For every other AP on here knowingly playing a -EV game, you guys also have problems. You guys are one step closer to becoming a degenerate. Once you do that, you're not a winning player anymore, you're just a degenerate gambler looking for an excuse to get action in with things like "Well, it's just a hobby and i enjoy it, i would waste money doing other hobbies I enjoy" or "I just do it recreationally", but in the end those are just excuses you tell yourself so you can be a degenerate. Even if people AP more than they play -EV games, it doesn't matter, you now crossed the side from a winning player to a losing player and it's just a matter of time.

If I dont think I have an edge, I never touch any other game whatsoever, i just don't see the point in -ev gambling. I have no interest whatsoever. Even when I bet sports years back, i was trying to backtest algorithms and systems to see if long term I had an edge. I would think of a strategy and backtest it by going back in time and recording every game I saw to see if the theory indeed worked. Sure it's still a small sample size, but the principle was still there and it did well. The point is, no bet was placed until I really thought I had some type of edge. I do still think sports handicapping has potential and could be an AP move, but it just doesnt intrigue me enough to find out in the long run in case im wrong, so i just stopped with it.

Even when Im counting blackjack, i cringe every time i have to play heads up knowing im at a disadvantage off the top. If something is -EV, it just gives me no enjoyment or interest whatsoever. I think many on this forum have serious gambling problems.

You actually make sense here. A little raw and upfront but still have to agree with you. There is a difference between an AP and a Gambler. Some APs are more disciplined than others is the point you are making here. I think you forgot that Mr V is on the side of the guys who wear 6000 dollar sweaters and 60,000 dollar watches... I however am not. As a matter of fact, I have stated that person deserves to get rolled if found strolling down the street (unprotected).

If by 'leak' one means a deviation from perfect play then there are the usual 'socially mediated' events. The initial tie bet in Baccarat is a 'leak'. Later TIE bets are certainly a leak, but it is indeed such fun when it wins. The Don't Better who if explaining the game to a companion starts out with a bet on the Pass Line is deviating from his intended style of play but its only a few bucks and a few decimal places, The tip to the waitress is a 'leak' to some degree... a socially induced bet on a more prompt return visit and a stiffer drink made even more of a leak if she is a sweet young thing that is half naked.

I would rarely make a hard six bet but if six rolled three times in succession and each time came hard, you bet I'm going to develop a leak real fast. Its a negative expectation game overall but the essence of gambling is the belief that 'overall' won't happen because 'overall' is something that happens to the casino and to other players, but some deviation is going to happen to the gambler on that particular roll of the dice. The casino will have the law of large numbers but the gambler will have the very next number.

If a dealer performs a stellar service, a gambler who tips him is engaging in a 'leak' event but its probably wise to do so.

I don't do this constant CandE usually that everyone else does but sometimes you just go along.

I rarely play slots but occasionally its a temptation to just pause while passing by and drop in a few coins at a random machine on which you've not even read the placard and don't even know if its aliens, horses or reels or whatnot. Is it sensible? No. Is it strict adherence to your favorite gambling scheme of playing the percentages? No. But life is short, you are a bit soused and what the heck... why not.

Its similar to the poker play who usually plays a very tight game but who occasionally raises after announcing he has not even looked at his cards. Its a leak, but sometimes it pays off handsomely.

Making a decision at a craps table based on how lucky the shooter has been recently or how boisterous his behavior has been or how he was treating his girlfriend is a 'leak' but its just about as valid as just standing there and staying on the Don'ts all night long.

To dismiss gambling as a form of entertainment is a bit ridiculous. There's a huge difference between the degenerats grinding through -EV Blackjack hands at 4am like it's a chore, and someone shooting a bit of craps for fun.

News flash: there's plenty of recreational players who do so responsibly and are not addicts.

Quote: Dyvan13

I work full time so enjoying my time spent gambling is just as important as AP-ing. If I was concerned with making as much money as possible, I'd probably just pick up a 2nd job.

Playing casino games gives me so much more enjoyment than virtually anything else available in the workforce. Based on that, by only playing with a player edge and avoiding anything with a house edge is the by far the best way to get any enjoyment.

-----

Many days I'll play the GameKing blackjack games to run off any change on a ticket. Less than $50 per year in total action, or a loss of less than 1-cent per day. Once or twice per year I'll play up to $10 to show someone something about a game. A loss of less than $1 per year.

-----

Tipping is an expense that comes with being a customer. No more or less a leak than gas or groceries

-----

If I ever had a desire to play craps or roulette or -EV VP or blackjack, I would just get an app for my phone and play as much as I wanted without losing any money

Additionally, we all misjudge our edges at times. Even if we commit fully to only making plays where we have the edge, we will fall short due to lack of information. Being overly cautious of those times would actually mean losing out on profits

Quote: ZenKinG

You're a degenerate.

Quote:

How in the hell can you go and call me an idiot or something similar when you're just a degenerate losing all of his money?

Quote:

The fact of the matter is, you're the idiot.

Do these qualify as Personal Insults? I just want to make sure. Is it cool if I go ahead and do my job on this one?

See you next week.

You should be commended for showing restraint on not dropping a longer one due to the short period of time between them. Unfortunately I feel like we're delaying the inevitable here, guys been banned in at least 3 different names where he migrated from. I'd prescribe anger management, or weed, same difference.

I will say that I don't understand for the life of me AP who also gamble recreationally -EV even at small stakes and am hesitant to work with them. I just can't understand it is all.

Quote: mcallister3200

You should be commended for showing restraint on not dropping a longer one due to the short period of time between them. Unfortunately I feel like we're delaying the inevitable here, guys been banned in at least 3 different names where he migrated from. I'd prescribe anger management, or weed, same difference.

I will say that I don't understand for the life of me AP who also gamble recreationally -EV even at small stakes and am hesitant to work with them. I just can't understand it is all.

1.) I appreciate your commendation very much. It is especially meaningful that you would say that when you have been critical of me in the past, but in my opinion, always objective and willing to listen to my defenses of myself when you are critical.

2.) I technically should not drop a longer ban because my previous ban was fully rescinded. I really cannot hold him accountable to the previous ban when I withdrew it.

3.) I hope that it is not inevitable. I actually rather enjoy reading ZK's stories when they are not taking on an overly grandiose or whining and accusatory tone. I also think he's a pretty smart guy, but he seems to either not realize or not care that he is not free to say whatever he wants, here.

4.) Some people just like gambling and/or the games, I'm one of them. I probably like Craps and Video Keno the best, Craps because the game is just fun and VK because I think it's relaxing. I typically bet $0.10 at a time on VK, so you're talking 1,000 draws before I've hit roughly $10 in -EV. That's over an hour of entertainment for $10, at least, that entertains me. I think it's difficult to get an hour of entertainment for $10 short of staying at home, so my conclusion is that it is decent entertainment time value for the money, better still if at a place where alcohol is free. 2,000 draws and I'm at roughly $20 in -EV and 2.5 hours and definitely have had enough and am ready to go home.

Also, I do look at things in terms of EV, so I'm willing to risk 10% of my +EV on -EV games at a maximum. In other words, before I'll make $200 in VK bets ($20 -EV), I'll have to have found $200 +EV elsewhere.

Quote: ZenKinG

You're a degenerate. The funny thing is, you have constantly called me an idiot whether on this forum or another. How in the hell can you go and call me an idiot or something similar when you're just a degenerate losing all of his money? The fact of the matter is, you're the idiot. For every other AP on here knowingly playing a -EV game, you guys also have problems. You guys are one step closer to becoming a degenerate. Once you do that, you're not a winning player anymore, you're just a degenerate gambler looking for an excuse to get action in with things like "Well, it's just a hobby and i enjoy it, i would waste money doing other hobbies I enjoy" or "I just do it recreationally", but in the end those are just excuses you tell yourself so you can be a degenerate. Even if people AP more than they play -EV games, it doesn't matter, you now crossed the side from a winning player to a losing player and it's just a matter of time.

If I dont think I have an edge, I never touch any other game whatsoever, i just don't see the point in -ev gambling. I have no interest whatsoever. Even when I bet sports years back, i was trying to backtest algorithms and systems to see if long term I had an edge. I would think of a strategy and backtest it by going back in time and recording every game I saw to see if the theory indeed worked. Sure it's still a small sample size, but the principle was still there and it did well. The point is, no bet was placed until I really thought I had some type of edge. I do still think sports handicapping has potential and could be an AP move, but it just doesnt intrigue me enough to find out in the long run in case im wrong, so i just stopped with it.

Even when Im counting blackjack, i cringe every time i have to play heads up knowing im at a disadvantage off the top. If something is -EV, it just gives me no enjoyment or interest whatsoever. I think many on this forum have serious gambling problems.

It was inevitable a post like this would show up in this thread.......... There's a lot of greed and arrogance in the AP community.

Quote: Dyvan13

It was inevitable a post like this would show up in this thread.......... There's a lot of greed and arrogance in the AP community.

The sad thing is, it's these "degenerates" that allow him to make money in casinos.

I think that if you're an AP, you should not spend any time at -EV games. That would be like me showing up at my commissioned job and not trying to sell stuff. I'm not there because I like it (although I do), I'm there to make money.

For me, gambling is what I do for fun, and I don't care that it is -EV. My goal is to limit the risk and have some fun taking a chance. When it's time to make money I go back to work.

Quote: Mosca

I think that if you're an AP, you should not spend any time at -EV games. That would be like me showing up at my commissioned job and not trying to sell stuff. I'm not there because I like it (although I do), I'm there to make money...

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.
7) etc.

The list could go on.

Quote: Romes

5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.

Pai Gow Poker is such a slow game that if youre playing at like $10-$15 minimum Im fairly certain its cheaper than drinking at almost any bar.

Quote: ZenKinG

You're a degenerate. ... If something is -EV, it just gives me no enjoyment or interest whatsoever. I think many on this forum have serious gambling problems.

The difference between us is the difference between recreational gamblers and advantage players.

Recreation / avocation vs. vocation.

Gambling to me is no different than any other form of entertainment that I must budget for.

To you it's your livelihood.

I don't like to lose, but I expect to, and that's just fine: I'm a big boy, I can afford it, and my discipline is such that gambling is most certainly NOT a problem for me.

Oh, ZK: what exactly do you mean when you say I am a "degenerate?"

For that matter, what the hell do you actually know about me, my gambling frequency, my average bets, my wins, my losses?

I gave / give you grief because of your cocksure attitude, your refusal to accept advice, and your dismissive, holier-than-thou posts (cause and effect).

Quote: Mission146

Do these qualify as Personal Insults?

While I took little umbrage, I believe his flames are in violation of the applicable forum rule.

mr v...its like when I called that idiot superick an idiot......that was an insult.

Quote: Romes

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.
7) etc.

The list could go on.

1 & 2 are essentially +EV if your intention is to scout and practice. Buying software in it of itself is -EV, but the gains you get from it make it +EV. Driving around different casinos and checking conditions is the same -- the act itself is -EV, but it can (and should) yield to +EV situations.

Idk what #3 means, unless you mean it as a form of cover play. In this case, although the cover play itself is -EV, overall its +EV because it allows you to play the main game for more hours.

#4 is definitely -EV.....unless you want to go the route of comparing that to something else you'd do for entertainment....but I think that's also a slippery slope and can be dangerous thinking.

#5 if your goal is to get drinks cheaper than you'd get them instead, then it's sorta +EV....like if you're going out clubbing or whatever y'all young whippersnappers do now a days with your face unions and SnackChats, cheaper to get loaded up at the bar for a few bucks than it is in the club for $20+/drink.

#6 yes this is -EV.



I've known several APs who are too scared to play anything without knowing 100% they have an advantage. It's like they don't realize they can play a game for a few minutes at a 1 or 2% HE, and if it's no good they can get up and leave.....but if it's good, they can play it at an advantage ranging from maybe 3% up to like 100% advantage, and they can play at such an advantage for hours.

It seems like the same kind of APs are the ones who won't touch "bad" games. They'll only play VP if it's 99.54% (9/6 JOB) or higher return....not even considering that the 8/5 JOB may yield a much higher advantage. I was playing a promotion next to another AP. He was playing something like 9/7 DB and I was playing something I don't even remember what it was (8/6 DDB maybe? Or super bonus?) but a good 1-1.5% lower base return. I asked him why he was playing the DB and he said it's the highest returning game and "would you rather play a 99% game or a 97.5% game?" I said "I'd rather play a 104% game than a 103% game." He didn't figure it out....plus he was an a**hole.

Quote: RS

I've known several APs who are too scared to play anything without knowing 100% they have an advantage.

Guiltyyyyyyyyyyyyy.jpg

Quote: Romes

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.

I play LOTS of -EV games.

If you are playing to make money, a possible guideline (considering only cash, not non-cash benefits) is:
(A) (Gross Profits on +EV games) - Expenses - Leaks (Gross Loss/Profit on -EV games, Errors on +EV games, Gross Loss/Profit on Unknown EV games) >= 0 (or desired profit)

There is no mathematical reason one has to play "only" +EV games.
(B) If Leaks < Net Profits (on +EV games), you are still +EV overall.

Even if your Leaks are 50% of your Net Profits, you can still be quite profitable.

------
Beyond Romes's good list, some other cute reasons to play -EV games.
7) For fun. (And Leaks < Net Profits as above).

8) Confusing AP competitors...about new games. If you have a known history among APs for recreationally blowing money on junk -EV games, you might be able to play a new game for X weeks before everyone else gets wise. Sometimes most of the profit in a new game occurs in the first few months.

AP competitors might include (a) slot APs (b) other APs who play a little slots (c) "player-hustlers" - regular heavy players who learn some AP methods

9) Confusing AP competitors...about when to play progressives. Playing a -EV game, or passing up a +EV game. P.S. You might only play a -EV progreesive for a few minutes or for a very small dollar amount (e.g. put in $100, but never intend to spend more than $5).

10) Playing Free Play. Sometimes no +EV games are available.

11) "Representing yourself" as a "particular type" of player for casino staff/Hosts (possibly part of a chain). You might say that this has long-term +EV.

------
P.S. To answer the OP's question.
a) My biggest current leak is Sub-100% Video Poker. I'm down about -20K in the past 2 years (roughly 97.5%). Lifetime loss is about the same.
b) Craps. Lifetime, I might be down -5K to -20K. Didn't keep records.
c) Horse betting. Tried twice. Lost both times. Got a "free" T-Shirt.
d) -EV slots. If you include mistakes (where I thought the game was +EV), games which I'm not sure about EV, R&D (Research & Development), fun, camouflage, could be -50K to -100K (or more) lifetime.
i keep track of "fun/camo" play separately from gross profits, but not usually mistakes & R&D.

There are many games where I thought I might have a winning strategy, won $1,000+, and ended up losing most/all of the profits.

Quote: Romes

As an AP, I disagree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play non-AP...

1) Checking new games for vulnerabilities (both known and "new" games).
2) Learning how a new game works/is played in a particular casino (online practice doesn't always equate to actual casino experience).
3) Putting in 'some' action at games other than your primary AP game.
4) As TomG pointed out, there could be "some" entertainment value for VERY cheap -EV.
5) Near "free" (cheap) drinks lol.
6) Hanging out with non-AP friends and wanting to have fun with them.
7) etc.

The list could go on.

I can see how some of those would be part of APing, though. The others, hanging with friends and cheap entertainment value, I guess that's a choice I hadn't considered. Over the years of hanging here, I've developed a picture of APers as loners and misanthropes. (That's neither good nor bad, I'm pretty much a loner, and I'd be a misanthrope if I thought I could pull it off.)

Quote: MrV

All my gambling is at -EV games: high limit slots and craps.

Sure, I hate to lose, and overall I do lose.

But not all the time.

Hey, it's stimulation, it's recreation, it's something I enjoy, and the best thing is I only risk losing money (something I have earned and saved quite a bit of over the years, so it's really no big deal).

I could have spent an equivalent amount on pursuing another hobby, but the hobbies that I'd want to take up would probably cause me to incur a risk I'd rather not undertake.

Sky diving / base jumping, car / boat racing, cheating on my wife: all would offer stimulation, but oh what a potential price I might have to pay when things go south, as they often do.

I don't mind tilting against windmills.

I thought skydiving was extremely safe.

As long is there are no rap concerts within 25 miles of the skydiving store.

Quote: RS

...It seems like the same kind of APs are the ones who won't touch "bad" games. They'll only play VP if it's 99.54% (9/6 JOB) or higher return....not even considering that the 8/5 JOB may yield a much higher advantage. I was playing a promotion next to another AP. He was playing something like 9/7 DB and I was playing something I don't even remember what it was (8/6 DDB maybe? Or super bonus?) but a good 1-1.5% lower base return. I asked him why he was playing the DB and he said it's the highest returning game and "would you rather play a 99% game or a 97.5% game?" I said "I'd rather play a 104% game than a 103% game." He didn't figure it out....plus he was an a**hole.

Regarding 8/5 JOB > 9/6 JOB, are you talking about better mailers on the inferior pay table?

What was the promo that made 9/7 DB inferior?

As for the OP's question, I'm pretty tight when it comes to -EV plays aside from determining meter rise on progressives in a -EV state or checking out unknown games for +EV potential. To me my biggest leak might be playing (on occasion) at either at too high or an unknown ROR for my BR, especially on Must-Hit-By's. I only bring this up as running out of money would be ---EV, even on +EV plays. I could do better to balance time management (betting bigger) with money management (betting smaller), and playing with competition tends to push the issue.

Quote: Mission146

See you next week.

I think his week (been 13 days) is up.