Why dont the Casinos get rid of their AP problem by simply using the CSM
Poll
 | 18 votes (62.06%) | ||
| | 7 votes (24.13%) | ||
| | 10 votes (34.48%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.44%) | ||
| | 2 votes (6.89%) |
29 members have voted
The game could be played much faster and hence more money for the casino.
Save a lot of money by not watching and going after the AP.
No more problems with being 86'D and trespass.
Quote: Deck007Outside the US and Canada it is CSM everywhere in the world.
The game could be played much faster and hence more money for the casino.
Save a lot of money by not watching and going after the AP.
No more problems with being 86'D and trespass.
AP/Card Counting is not a huge factor. It's pretty easy to spot. For every person kicked out for counting there's probably 100 others that are trying and failing at it and it keeps them coming back for more.
I think it's just a matter of time before CSM's are the norm, as well as 6-5 Blackjack and I'm sure some other things. It may not be this year or this decade, but it's coming.
ZCore13
There are plenty of AP opportunities on games that use CSMs.
Quote: odiousgambitIt's really remarkable that your average ploppy pays so much attention to things like CSMs but is so often OK with the 6:5 thing.
Very true--people think the machines can cheat but play 6:5 and get cheated on every single blackjack.
Can the machines cheat? It may be possible to rig them BUT everything in a regulated casino is under scrutiny, so it is highly doubtful it would really happen. NA casinos? Who knows...play at your own risk.
Thus my run of 100m shoes on UK rules (which has the player sticking to standard strategy which is technically wrong but useful for my comparison) gave...
(a) Penetration Level - where the cut card is (for CSM: worst case where dealer waits until nearly a deck's worth before refilling).
(b) House Edge as shown by sim (this obvious has a built-in degree of uncertainty as it's a simulation)
(c) AP Risk factors. Two figures are given:
. . (i) Profit per 100 hands dealt where an AP only bets $100 whenever the count suggests the deck is favourable to the player.
. . (ii) Bet multiplier required if an AP plays all hands, increases bet when favourable, and just wants to break even.
UK Blackjack - 6 decks
Pen HEdge AP Risk
83% 0.488% $27.20 2.804
66% 0.480% $18.36 3.623
16% 0.472% $1.75 32.408
(A) http://apheat.net/2013/10/28/card-counting-everything/
(B) http://apheat.net/2013/12/03/card-counting-101/
Quote: TankoCSM's also lower the house Edge.
Wizard
If you're not a proficient card counter with an adequate bankroll, you might do better playing against a CSM.
True but the increase in hands per hour could negate any savings unless more breaks are taken.
My wife and her friends routinely played the CSMs at Mohegan Sun when they were on the $5 games. The machines are long gone, the five $5 tables are now H17 and they still play them.
In my recent trip in March (Sunday-Thursday), the Bellagio only had their $10 CSM pit open on Sunday afternoon. The one evening I was there it was in the process of being opened at about 7:30PM, but wasn't open yet. On the other hand, they always had shoe games open at $15. Looks like Bellagio made the calculation that it's more cost-effective to run a shoe game than a CSM when it's not busy in the casino.
--helpmespock
Auto shufflers hang off the side of the table and the entire shoe is pulled out and put into the holder.
Quote: Sabretom2How do I know if I'm playing at a table with CSM vs. auto shuffle?
In a CSM the cards are typically put into the machine every couple hands or so. On an Auto Shuffle machine, you will play and entire shoe and then when you get to the cut card, the dealer will pull an entire shoe's worth of cards out of the shuffle machine and back and then place the just played shoe into the shuffle machine.
Quote: ahiromuSix months ago I asked a dealer at NYNY why they only had a couple of CSM's (compared to their other properties) and they said the players really don't like them. A couple of months ago I visited and they had added a half dozen of them, replacing shoe tables. I feel like it's something people working on the floor recommend against but the suits upstairs can't see anything beyond dollar signs. Once again, this is entirely conjecture.
Personally I don't like playing CSMs. Gambling has long been associated with superstition and what not. I think there are many people who do not trust them. However, there is a delicate balance that needs to be had. I remember going to casinos years ago and having the dealer hand shuffle 6 or 8 decks or whatever the amount. That killed time, and it meant a stoppage on profits from the casino and for me, as a player, it was kind of boring to sit there for however long it took them. I think the shuffle machines that shuffle an entire shoe while you are playing the other shoe is a good balance of maximizing time and entertainment value.
Quote: ahiromuSix months ago I asked a dealer at NYNY why they only had a couple of CSM's (compared to their other properties) and they said the players really don't like them. A couple of months ago I visited and they had added a half dozen of them, replacing shoe tables. I feel like it's something people working on the floor recommend against but the suits upstairs can't see anything beyond dollar signs. Once again, this is entirely conjecture.
95% of dealers have no clue what the real numbers or actual information is. They base their information on their very limited knowledge of gaming and their 6 hours a day on a table out of hundreds of table hours of play per day.
ZCore13
Yet some people were very happy to sit and watch this happen if you know what I mean.Quote: Gabes22Personally I don't like playing CSMs. Gambling has long been associated with superstition and what not. I think there are many people who do not trust them. However, there is a delicate balance that needs to be had. I remember going to casinos years ago and having the dealer hand shuffle 6 or 8 decks or whatever the amount. That killed time, and it meant a stoppage on profits from the casino and for me, as a player, it was kind of boring to sit there for however long it took them. I think the shuffle machines that shuffle an entire shoe while you are playing the other shoe is a good balance of maximizing time and entertainment value.
Quote: Gabes22I genuinely hope 6:5 BJ doesn't infiltrate higher limits. I am of the mindset that if it does not pay 3:2 it really shouldn't be able to be callled blackjack. However, there is a demand for casinos to offer $5 and $10 BJ games and at these table mins, it probably isn't lucrative enough to offer with good rules. As with the same rules, a casino could probably expect more for 1-2 people playing at a $50 than a table of $5 players. It's the low limits that attract them and unfortunately for them they don't know better about the rules. I am actually pretty shocked at how prevalent the 6:5 game has gotten in Vegas, where you would think market forces would take over.
Ignorance and Prejudice.
That seems to sum it up. Many non-AP think 6:5 is not much different than 3:2.
Where I play just about every body take even money for BJ vs. the dealers Ace. This give the house a 7.6% HE. So I gladly buy the hand from them.
I voted CC is as American as apple pie. For the non-AP it really doesn't make any difference whether it is shoe or CSM. Yet the conventional understanding is that you cannot trust the CSM and some how it is bad to play with the CSM.
Last time I did that, I finished up 30 units in about an hour. Too bad I was playing 5$ instead of my usual. -_-
Quote: VenthusI occasionally sit down to 6:5 as a 'waiting' game instead of VP or something.
Last time I did that, I finished up 30 units in about an hour. Too bad I was playing 5$ instead of my usual. -_-
why not 'wait' at a 3:2 table or something?
Cigarette Smoking Man (X-Files)
CSM, NV - Dutch maker of Baking Supplies
Calcutta School of Music
College of Southern Maryland
Certified Software Manager
Crop Simulation Model
Command Sargent Major
Canadian Society of Medievalists
Common Sense Media
Quote: Sabretom2How do I know if I'm playing at a table with CSM vs. auto shuffle?
The quickest way is also one you can do from far away. Just look at the discard rack. An ASM will have a big tower, similar to every other 6-8 deck game. A CSM will only have a short stack, like every other 1-2 deck games.
As for the OP, cost may be an issue. I remember looking into it on the job, and while I never nailed the price down due to our joint purchasing them (instead of the typical scenario where they are leased), the cost made me choke on my drink. I seem to recall a price of five digits each, though I can't remember if that was per year, quarter, or month. Surely someone (Zcore?) can confirm or deny.
Quote: FaceThe quickest way is also one you can do from far away. Just look at the discard rack. An ASM will have a big tower, similar to every other 6-8 deck game. A CSM will only have a short stack, like every other 1-2 deck games.
As for the OP, cost may be an issue. I remember looking into it on the job, and while I never nailed the price down due to our joint purchasing them (instead of the typical scenario where they are leased), the cost made me choke on my drink. I seem to recall a price of five digits each, though I can't remember if that was per year, quarter, or month. Surely someone (Zcore?) can confirm or deny.
I don't use CSM's and we only lease our shufflers so I have no factual knowledge of the purchase cost. If I were to take a wild guess I'd say $700-$1,000 per month if leased and maybe 5x-10x the yearly lease cost to purchase one??
ZCore13
Must be a fraction of the cost of a slot machine.
Quote: Deck007C'mon a little gadget like that.
Must be a fraction of the cost of a slot machine.
There's quite a lot of technology in shufflers and the prices above are fractions of the cost of a slot machine.
Quote: bobsimsPersonally I'd like to see them all go to a 6 deck CSM game with good rules like Stand 17. Say a .15% house edge playing Basic Strategy?
Good luck with that.....you'd need early surrender against 10 to get under 0.2% on a 6 deck. You can find it plenty of places outside the US.
Quote: Toes14CSM?
Cigarette Smoking Man (X-Files)
CSM, NV - Dutch maker of Baking Supplies
Calcutta School of Music
College of Southern Maryland
Certified Software Manager
Crop Simulation Model
Command Sargent Major
Canadian Society of Medievalists
Common Sense Media
Colorado School of Mines
I also don't like CSMs for the same reason that GWAE points out. I also gamble without an edge and I'd rather have the better experience rather than a slightly better edge.
As for the price, I was under the assumption that Shufflemaster only leased the shufflers on the order of 1k per month. That means that leasing a new game that requires a shuffler might cost 2k or up per month.
Quote: mcallister3200Good luck with that.....you'd need early surrender against 10 to get under 0.2% on a 6 deck. You can find it plenty of places outside the US.
Acoording to the WOO BJ calculator a six deck no surrender stand 17 game where you can re-split aces, hit split aces and split up to 4 hands carries a house edge of .15693%.
Works for me-a great game for BS players and f*** the counters and their books, lessons and other hype.
Quote: bobsims
Works for me-a great game for BS players and f*** the counters
No reason to be insulting.
Quote: bobsimsAcoording to the WOO BJ calculator a six deck no surrender stand 17 game where you can re-split aces, hit split aces and split up to 4 hands carries a house edge of .15693%.
Works for me-a great game for BS players and f*** the counters and their books, lessons and other hype.
I am with you on this one. MBS (Sands) here in Singapore the HE is 0.15%. Check out LVS in Vegas.
Quote: mcallister3200No reason to be insulting.
On the contrary. After decades of hearing the hype and bullcrap surrounding counting a little insulting seems to be in order! A great BS game, be it CSM or single deck with one round dealt or 4 decks with 2.5 decks cut off would be good for the game the casinos and the vast majority of the players. Put a stake through the counting (mostly) myth once and for all!
Quote: bobsimsOn the contrary. After decades of hearing the hype and bullcrap surrounding counting a little insulting seems to be in order! A great BS game, be it CSM or single deck with one round dealt or 4 decks with 2.5 decks cut off would be good for the game the casinos and the vast majority of the players. Put a stake through the counting (mostly) myth once and for all!
Csm is one thing, dealing out one round on a single deck or 1.5 on a 4 deck is just retarded and not good for the casino, but is a similar thought process that many casinos employ. Even on an automatic shuffler that would cost the casino about 10 hands per hour on a 4 deck. But such is the thought process of many casinos, let's cost ourselves 10 hands per hour against the 999 profitable players to discourage the one player playing with a puny edge.
There is no good reason to cut off more than one deck other than irrational fear. Maximize the profits on your profitable players, train competent personell to identify the rare player who both bets big and plays a skilled game.
Quote: bobsimsOn the contrary. After decades of hearing the hype and bullcrap surrounding counting a little insulting seems to be in order! A great BS game, be it CSM or single deck with one round dealt or 4 decks with 2.5 decks cut off would be good for the game the casinos and the vast majority of the players. Put a stake through the counting (mostly) myth once and for all!
Sounds like a lot of shuffling. How about cut off half a deck and hire compentent staff.
Why do you care if someone is counting? Would you be upset if I split tens? how I play doesn't affect your hands. If I use counting, martingale, etc. it doesn't affect you.
Quote: mcallister3200Wongers or counters who spread to two hands in positive counts actually do slightly decrease the expectation of a recreational player, similar to progressive/banking slot vultures if the slot is on a linked bank.
Define slightly decrease... You're splitting pennies, and doing so from people whom play with 2-5% house edges because they play so poor. While you can claim this 'technically' this is very far from the reality and truth of the situation. And yet non-counters would try to use this now as some sort of 'fair' argument.
You appear to intend to completely exaggerate and blow out of proportion what I said, why I don't know.
Quote: AvincowSounds like a lot of shuffling. How about cut off half a deck and hire compentent staff.
Why do you care if someone is counting? Would you be upset if I split tens? how I play doesn't affect your hands. If I use counting, martingale, etc. it doesn't affect you.
Let me tell you why I care about you counting; because as a BS player the paranoia it has engendered in the casinos has resulted in the severe deterioration of rules in the 3 decades I have been playing. That's why. If they deal 1.5 decks out of 4 decks with great rules BS players are happy and the paranoia and the counters (and their mostly bullcrap hype) go away-which would be great IMHO.
That was probably the least intelligent thought process I have ever read and I now feel dumber after reading it.
8 Decks.
Dealer hits soft 17.
DAS any first 2 cards.
RS to 4 hands
No resplit Aces
No hitting split aces.
BJ pays 3:2.
70% Penetration
No surrender
Table Max 8x Min
No mid-shoe entry.
Those rules are probably beatable but would it be worth the effort?
