How do you make money in horse racing?
Quote: NeutrinoI'm quite interested on this as well. I see it similar to sports betting or a part of it.
I think it's way worse. At least in sports you can get a bet at a good spread or price. For horses your line goes to hell if too many others are betting your bet.
There is less room for error in horse racing. Everything for your bet is condensed ina 90 second performance (give or take 15 -20 seconds)
a stumble at the gate, a single tactical blunder by the jockey, errors by other jockeys....an error is hard to overcome due to the time constraints.
other sports take place over 2 hours or more...errors can be recoverable over time.
also hirse races involve on average 7-8 other horse that can beat you
In sports..its just the other team.
Quote: Lemieux66I think it's way worse. At least in sports you can get a bet at a good spread or price. For horses your line goes to hell if too many others are betting your bet.
I don't bet sports or horses much at all. Aren't they both pari-mutuel systems?
You can make money, and there are people who do. But you can't make money by betting win / place / show
You need vulnerable favorites in single or multi race wagers. The key is finding them.
Quote: rdw4potusI don't bet sports or horses much at all. Aren't they both pari-mutuel systems?
Sports - no
Horses - yes
But, exchange betting is coming, and that could change a lot.
Quote: NeutrinoI'm quite interested on this as well. I see it similar to sports betting or a part of it.
Start with betting tris in races run in PENN STATE...the take out is ONLY about 35% !!!!
Figure in who is not trying, figure which horse got his VITAMIN SHOT that day..play against the SMART MONEY (read insiders) and well i wish you luck
Quote: coilmanhttp://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_749278.html#axzz2wThPKJa3
Interesting read
"If you are going to the track trying to make a fortune, find something else," Tufano said. "If you are looking solely to win at gambling, there are better options."
Paragraph of the year.
I always hear a few old timers claim they are good(NOT), however I have never meet or seen anyone who has made a living doing it.
The biggest degenerate gamblers in the casino are always the guys in the race book.
I have known a few AP/hustlers who would make very good money on slots and VP bonus hunting and casino promotions. But they never had any money saved and were often broke. After seeing and talking to many of them thees guys, who seem to be sharp on machine hustling, I seen a pattern, they all had one thing in common, they bet horses. I can spot thees guys a mile a way now.
Quote: ontariodealerI never bet sports anymore, seldom win in the casino, but i play the horses 4 or 5 times a week and have been in the black for the last year......it isn't easy.
Will that sports betting change if they pass the law for single game wagering in Ontario?
Luck is always easy. Thats what it is luck period. unless you have a proven mathematical formula like the parlay betting system. If your handicapping yourself picking horses based on public information. ITS PURE LUCK.Quote: ontariodealerI never bet sports anymore, seldom win in the casino, but i play the horses 4 or 5 times a week and have been in the black for the last year......it isn't easy.
If you could pick the ponies, you would be able to drop the dealer part from your name and life.
Quote: WizardMy opinion is that it is too hard to beat the 17%+ takeout to beat racing. Much like dice setting, I won't say it can't be done, but I've yet to meet anybody who convinced me they can consistently win straight up at horses or dice.
Win, Place and show betting comes with a 20+% takeout. Exotic wagers like Trifectas, Superfectas, Pick 3,4,5,6, exactas, quinellas,…etc come with a 25+% takeout. So the horseplayer has to be approximately 23% better than the composite group of gamblers to break even. Tough game.
How do you make money in horse racing? Sell the beer.
Luck (2011– ) Would have been a great show. Horses died they ended it i suggest watching it anyways. What could have been. They show 3 degenerate horse bettors u see thees guys in every major race book. They peg them to a TQuote: Lemieux66I knew it. The old guys betting it are just action junkies.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1578887/
Regarding horse racing, I was an avid fan, growing up in NY, just a few miles from Aqueduct and Belmont.
I still play the ponies, and I'll tell you where I find the best value: multi-race wagering.
You see, in NY, there's simply too many "wise guys" to beat most single races; meaning, these guys are sharp and so it's tougher and tougher to find good value in the win or place pools or even in the exotics (exactas and/or triples) for most of the races.
So I gear myself towards the Pick 3's. Love them. Pick against the favorite in the first leg, and you're GOLDEN, as the value will be tremendous usually. So if I like a medium-priced horse in any race (and yes, I seek them out), I'll use them in my Pick 3 betting, and I needn't be right very often at all to still come out ahead, simply by hitting some over-valued P3's.
Make no mistake of it, my friends, the key to surviving the race track is to seek out the good VALUES, where you're being paid out at generous odds for your money.
(Sidenote: For those that might not know it, the multi-race parimutuels are unknown factors. In other words, there are no "will pays" posted, showing the prospective prices, in advance of the first two legs of the Pick 3, so the betting is done, if you will, "blind". And that will always make for better value-plays, especially regarding the horse racing in NY.)
Quote: AxelWolfLuck (2011– ) Would have been a great show. Horses died they ended it i suggest watching it anyways. What could have been. They show 3 degenerate horse bettors u see thees guys in every major race book. They peg them to a T
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1578887/
Quote: IMDb: LuckSeries creator David Milch is a recovering gambling addict in real life, and drew on his own experiences for part of the storyline. He jokingly refers to that part of his life as "the most expensive research period" of his career.
Thanks, AxelWolf, I'll see if I can find a stream for that show's episodes. At the racebook where I bet once or twice a year they reserve several seats for "regulars." I don't know if they are successful, but they are intensely involved in the action. I don't see them hanging around anywhere else in the casino.
There are statistical models that syndicates use. These models use as input all the previous races of the horses, and the matrix of their results against each other, together with any number of additional variables (track conditions, length of race, race times, etc.). These models output "correct" odds, or at least, a decent approximation. The syndicate then wagers on those horses whose odds are better than the "correct" odds, much like Mike wagers on sports. These syndicates compete against each other and are always trying to improve their models. The average punter doesn't stand a chance against these syndicates, no matter what they think they know.Quote: Lemieux66That's hardcore insider knowledge. I mean the Vitamin Shot lol
http://worlds-greatest-gamblers.com/gamblers/horse-racing/william-benter/
When I was a math professor, I was friends with a computer science professor who created such a model. After he posted some questions on an Internet discussion board, he was contacted by a syndicate that was interested in purchasing his model.
Quote: treetopbuddyHow do you make money in horse racing? Sell the beer.
And we have a winner.
Also acceptable would have been programs or racing forms or even hot dogs.
Quote: geoffThey've got $8 bottles of water now. I thought casinos were bad, but that right there is just criminal.
That...is outrageous. And that's outrageous by Vegas Strip standards, where we routinely paid half that for a bottle of water. Selling water for $4 a bottle on the Strip is supply and demand on ridiculous proportions. Double that? Whoever set those prices should be hanged.
That said, the best way to make money in horse racing is to own a good horse.
Quote: treetopbuddyWin, Place and show betting comes with a 20+% takeout. Exotic wagers like Trifectas, Superfectas, Pick 3,4,5,6, exactas, quinellas,…etc come with a 25+% takeout. So the horseplayer has to be approximately 23% better than the composite group of gamblers to break even. Tough game.
How do you make money in horse racing? Sell the beer.
How do you make a small fortune in horse racing? Start with a large fortune!
in one i won 3k on a 50 dollar show bet......when a big favorite broke down and never raced again
in the other won 10k on a 120 dollar bet when a big fave stumbled out of the gate.
I did not calculate it, did not forsee it....just luck
Quote: gr8player
I still play the ponies, and I'll tell you where I find the best value: multi-race wagering.
So I gear myself towards the Pick 3's. Love them. Pick against the favorite in the first leg, and you're GOLDEN, as the value will be tremendous usually. So if I like a medium-priced horse in any race (and yes, I seek them out), I'll use them in my Pick 3 betting, and I needn't be right very often at all to still come out ahead, simply by hitting some over-valued P3's.
)
But the twnety cent tickets have killed even that type of bet
Quote: LarrySmy 2 biggest payouts at the track was due to total luck
in one i won 3k on a 50 dollar show bet......when a big favorite broke down and never raced again
in the other won 10k on a 120 dollar bet when a big fave stumbled out of the gate.
I did not calculate it, did not forsee it....just luck
Luck plays a huge factor in winning a bet at the horse track, no doubt.
I'm thinking your recollection of the 3K win on the 50 show bet is a little hazy. Your horse would have had to pay 122.00 on a 2 dollar ticket to show. Never happens…. O.K. there is one caveat. Is it possible you were betting into a negative show pool? A negative show pool is created when the bridge jumpers bet 100's of thousands on the favorite to show. The show pool may have 750,000 dollars and the win pool might have 100,000 in it…..This creates a bizarre payout if the big, big favorite runs off the board. A negative show pool is the only time the track loses money on a race. Negative show pools are very rare, so maybe you happened upon one without understanding what happened……was it dollar day at the track?…..beers for a buck and a late race?
I'm guessing the 10k you won on the 120 dollar bet was some sort of exotic wager. If it you put 120 dollars on the nose, then you cashed on a 84 to 1 horse. Most people that bet on an 84 to 1 horse bet a couple of bucks on a hunch……you know, the horse's jockey had beautiful silks or the horse blinked at them in The Parade to Post.
I'm not saying that your fibbing…..just sayin'
He didn't just handicap horses he handicapped the numbers. He tried to explain it to me but it was way over my head. The one bit of advice he gave me that I took to heart was "I've known thousands of horse bettors in my life. There are only about a dozen of them that if I owned the book I would tell them I didn't want their action." That's all I needed to know. Successful horse bettors might be the most rarest AP's there are.
Quote: mickeycrimmSuccessful horse bettors might be the most rarest AP's there are.
I believe your right…..especially considering takeouts are well above 20% at todays tracks.
Quote: treetopbuddyLuck plays a huge factor in winning a bet at the horse track, no doubt.
I'm thinking your recollection of the 3K win on the 50 show bet is a little hazy. Your horse would have had to pay 122.00 on a 2 dollar ticket to show. Never happens…. O.K. there is one caveat. Is it possible you were betting into a negative show pool? A negative show pool is created when the bridge jumpers bet 100's of thousands on the favorite to show. The show pool may have 750,000 dollars and the win pool might have 100,000 in it…..This creates a bizarre payout if the big, big favorite runs off the board. A negative show pool is the only time the track loses money on a race. Negative show pools are very rare, so maybe you happened upon one without understanding what happened……was it dollar day at the track?…..beers for a buck and a late race?
I'm guessing the 10k you won on the 120 dollar bet was some sort of exotic wager. If it you put 120 dollars on the nose, then you cashed on a 84 to 1 horse. Most people that bet on an 84 to 1 horse bet a couple of bucks on a hunch……you know, the horse's jockey had beautiful silks or the horse blinked at them in The Parade to Post.
I'm not saying that your fibbing…..just sayin'
My 50 dollar 3k payoff happend as such
I was losing on the day at the meadowlands.....nj, harness
There was a trot race with only 6 horses,,,,overwhelming fave "Cape Mattaras". I didnt want to sit out a race...so I bet 50 dollars to show...just to have some interest. I bet it on a horse called EFISHNC. It was second fave...maybe 6-1.
Anyway unknowing to me someone put 100k to show....looking to make a quick 5 k....on the fave cape mataras..remember its just 6 horses.
So Cape mataras breaks down in the stretch...comes in last.(doesnt break..i mean breaks down)..efishnc wins
On the tote board shows my horespaying 19.50(something like that....i cant remember it exactly).....so I think I am getting 19.50 x 25 for my 50 dollar bet.
I didnt know that the tote board dosent have a place for "hundreds(for show):.....so instead of showing 119.50.....it shows 19.50
I go to the teller and he is counting out hundreds and hundreds)....great feeling. But I have no idea why, until i look at the tv screen that has the full payng price.
If I was smart and bet my same horse to win.....I would have got paid 350.00
like I said...lucky...now maybe I got 2800 or 3k...who remembers...it was 20 years ago.
the 10 k was a 120 dollar ........1 dollar tri box of 6 horses
Quote: WizardMy opinion is that it is too hard to beat the 17%+ takeout to beat racing. Much like dice setting, I won't say it can't be done, but I've yet to meet anybody who convinced me they can consistently win straight up at horses or dice.
The key point that people miss is that the takeout is from the overall pool. Individual runners are still over and under bet. The under bet runners can still go off at a price that is greater than their true odds of winning. That's how people make money. Identifying these runners and betting the underbets and opposing the overbets. Difficult to overcome such a big takeout but can and is done. If your country ever allow Betfair it will be far easier to profit from racing.
Quote: gr8playerAgreed, AxelWolf, great show, and add a * if you just happen to be a horse racing fan.
Regarding horse racing, I was an avid fan, growing up in NY, just a few miles from Aqueduct and Belmont.
I still play the ponies, and I'll tell you where I find the best value: multi-race wagering.
You see, in NY, there's simply too many "wise guys" to beat most single races; meaning, these guys are sharp and so it's tougher and tougher to find good value in the win or place pools or even in the exotics (exactas and/or triples) for most of the races.
So I gear myself towards the Pick 3's. Love them. Pick against the favorite in the first leg, and you're GOLDEN, as the value will be tremendous usually. So if I like a medium-priced horse in any race (and yes, I seek them out), I'll use them in my Pick 3 betting, and I needn't be right very often at all to still come out ahead, simply by hitting some over-valued P3's.
Make no mistake of it, my friends, the key to surviving the race track is to seek out the good VALUES, where you're being paid out at generous odds for your money.
(Sidenote: For those that might not know it, the multi-race parimutuels are unknown factors. In other words, there are no "will pays" posted, showing the prospective prices, in advance of the first two legs of the Pick 3, so the betting is done, if you will, "blind". And that will always make for better value-plays, especially regarding the horse racing in NY.)
I agree, it's all about value. Where can we find value? Triple Crown weeks. Big hats and fat wallets out number the wise guys.
Quote: LarryS
Anyway unknowing to me someone put 100k to show....looking to make a quick 5 k....on the fave cape mataras..remember its just 6 horses.
Good story, except for the horse breaking down. Yeah, you caught a negative show pool. A negative show pool occurs when approximately 93% or more of the show pool is on one horse.
Gamblers look for negative show pools (rare) and will bet on every other horse in the race to show. If the heavily bet favorite in the show pool runs off the board….big payday.
Quote: gr8player
Make no mistake of it, my friends, the key to surviving the race track is to seek out the good VALUES, where you're being paid out at generous odds for your money.
Make no mistake about it…….I'm the self proclaimed Central Scrutinizer for all horse racing posts.
How can you possibly know what good VALUES are on any horse. Your overlay is somebody else's underlay. Look up the terms. If you believe a horse to be under bet or over bet that's simply your perception of the race based on YOUR handicapping skills/ ideas. The idea of looking for value in a horse is nothing but a bunch of B.S……I hear that bunk all the time. Most players are just parroting the crap the horse touts spit out.
Sorry if my post comes off as a little harsh but your post has an air authority, which you don't have my friend.
Stick to what you know, Bac……..:-)
Pick your favorite horse in each race with your 2nd & 3rd picks.
Do the same for the following two races.
In this example you like the 8 with the 5 & 9
In the 2nd race you like the 6 with the 4 &2
In the 3rd race you like the 3 with the 1 & 6
1st------8---------6,4,2-----------3,1,6 ($9)
2nd---8,5,9---------6--------------3,1,6 ($9)
3rd---8,5,9--------6,4,2--------------3 ($9)
If the #8 wins the first race, you have 3 live tickets.
In the 2nd race if the #6 wins, you have 3 live tickets. If the #4 or #2 wins you will have 2 live tickets. In the 3rd race if (#8, #6 won the first 2 races) and if #3 wins you have 3 winning tickets. If #1 or #6 wins you have 2 winning tickets.
In the first race, if the #5 or # 9 wins you have 2 live tickets. In the 2nd race if the #6 wins you have 2 live tickets. If the #4 or #2 wins, you will have 1 winning ticket. In the 3rd race if the #3 wins, (#6 won the 2nd race) you have 2 winning tickets. If the #1 or #6 wins, you have 1 winning ticket.
TTB - I agree with you a lot on value. However, there are times when you are most certainly getting it. In a double, sometimes your payout can be much higher than if you had parlayed the bet. I think that means you got good value.
Quote: coilmanWill that sports betting change if they pass the law for single game wagering in Ontario?
I'm hoping to transfer to that dept when it becomes legal......what a great job that would be for semi retirement.
Quote: Lemieux66That's hardcore insider knowledge. I mean the Vitamin Shot lol
Years ago.
Friend who worked with Trotters was with a horse when the vet walked in with a 'fist full of needles'. Friend said "Looks like you've got everything there doc". Vet replied with a wink, "Yeah. Including the kitchen sink".
Friend told me "This is a Kitchen Sink horse. When I give you a Kitchen Sink horse, bet your kitchen sink on him."
Horse won and paid two to one.
Trotter owner at the track, told someone we both knew, "Watch that guy and count how many fingers he has raised as he brushes the horse". "Bet that number when this horse races". Sure enough, he held the brush with four fingers raised. The number four horse won.
Guy I knew owned a Flat with two others. A vet gave them a syringe and a vial, and showing them how to use it, told them "Inject this into his neck the night before the race. It kicks in when the horse reaches top speed and it's untraceable after the race."
Geniuses didn't follow directions and injected the horse on the morning of the race instead. He lost, but the drug kicked in at the end of the race and the jockey had to run him out because he wouldn't stop running.
Kitchen Sink?
Watch what happens at 2:00. He detonates at 2:20. Then unbelievably again at 3:00.
Secretariat
Quote: mickeycrimmHave any of you guys ever the met ones who pick up all the discarded tickets at the track and check them for winners?
I told the story here once of the race at Arlington that was called a no contest 5 min after race ended. The whole place turned into a giant scavenger hunt for tickets. Insane.
Lots of winning tickets go unclaimed. The track is alway quick to pick up discarded mutual tickets. I was told that Turf Paradise typically had 250,000 dollars of unclaimed tickets a year.
Quote: treetopbuddyOn my very first trip to track I threw away a winning ticket. A jockey early in the race fell off his horse…… his horse crossed the wire first. The horse I bet on ran second so I thought I had a losing ticket as I bet the horse to win. Didn't realize that the jockey had to cross the wire with the horse. I threw the ticket on the ground and left. Later that day I was told by a friend that I was one big dumb ass.
Lots of winning tickets go unclaimed. The track is alway quick to pick up discarded mutual tickets. I was told that Turf Paradise typically had 250,000 dollars of unclaimed tickets a year.
There was an advantage slot hustler in Nevada that went by the name of Psycho. Before the advantage slots he made a living at Santa Anita picking up and checking tickets for winners, until they pitched him out. I was talking to him in the sports book at Caesar's Tahoe and he found a parley ticket right in front of me that cashed for $1500.
