Automation at Casinos

Over the last 10 years, there seems to be a trend of everything at casinos becoming more and more automated.

Most noticeably, Ticket-In-Ticket-Out technology at the slot machines have reduced (or eliminated) the need for Impressment Attendants, Hard Count, Change Attendants, Slot Attendants, Cashiers, along with other jobs. Since limited hopper capacity is no longer an issue, only the biggest of jackpots require hand pay now. Tickets can be redeemed at kiosks and there's obviously no need to purchase rolls of tokens from change carts anymore. The only thing cashiers are needed for are for cashing out your chips from the tables.

We're seeing self serve beverage stations, and 'beverage on demand' at slot machines. At Caesars Windsor, there are no beverage servers pushing carts full of bottled water, coffee, pop, juice, etc actively giving refreshments out to patrons. Instead, there's a little touch screen interface at the slot machines to order both alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks on demand, and then 10-15 minutes later, it gets delivered.

It's getting to the point where the only human interaction left is the dealers at the table games and I think that even that may disappear. I think everybody is familiar with Rapid Roulette where all the betting is electronic but there is still a dealer operating the wheel. Caesars Windsor has taken it a step further and added a roulette wheel that is completely automated. I can't remember the name of the system off hand, but the wheel is under a glass 'bubble' and operates without any human interaction.

Do you guys think we will see a time when dealers and other human elements of casinos are completely eliminated? The social/human element is the whole reason I go to casinos, otherwise I'd just play online.

The wages, insurance, taxes etc will get too expensive years down the road for casinos to deliver $5 or $10 games to the public with traditional rules, hence the prevalence of 6:5 BJ on the strip. Where you will see that automation is in keeping those lower table limits. If someone wants to play BJ at $5/hand he will have to go to an automated machine. I think there will always be dealers at the higher stakes tables however.

That bubble roulette located just outside the high rollers room is usually pretty busy too.....along with the other electroncic roulette table with the attendant located 50 feet away.

Not only is the interaction with others missing now with the way the slots are TITO but I think the atmosphere is dead too without all the clink clink clink of coins dropping into peoples trays.

As for the beverage order system on each machine....its has flaws too...my buddy wanted clamato juice with his beer...cant order that on there...so he waited for a beverage person to walk by and asked for one....had it back in under 10 minutes :( guess he should have just walked over to the bar

Those machines for cashing out the TITO tickets will also exchange US dollars to Canadian funds....but should an American win they too would have to see a cashier to change their winnings back to US dollars

As for the elmination of the live dealers I can't see that happening....but it the management thought they could get away with it they would in a heart beat


BTW welcome to the board

ETR102==Essex terminal railway?

I don't believe the poverty excuse when it comes to casinos "needing" to spend less money whether changing this rule or that rule, but believe it is just greed. Casinos are greedier than their patrons IMO and these things are just believable excuses. Most improvements in efficiency do not translate into a competition of sharing the savings, but because of collusion become increased profits.

I started playing table games much more in the last year and my biggest frustration lies in the cage. In my area, the cage spends most of its time cashing personal checks for players. The casinos in my area do not generally charge a fee for this service and if there is a fee it is always cheaper than using the casino ATM. I find this very frustrating as this process takes at least 3 to 5 minutes per person. The casinos actually encourage people to bring a check book instead of using the ATM because fees are not levied on cashing checks, while the ATM fees range from $4.50 to $6 depending on the casino. I understand there are large numbers of older Americans that do not have/don't feel comfortable using ATM cards, but it is getting ridiculous. I always assumed the casino would encourage the use of the ATM as it does not require a person to process the transaction.

I think that completely moving to dealerless games will hurt the casino in the long term. When online gambling becomes legal brick and mortar casinos will be forced to differentiate themselves. The electronic games are fine for people who are scared of the table or the casino is full. The casinos in my area removed the electronic roulette and craps because no one played. Both craps and roulette are social games where the interaction with the dealer(s) matter.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I started playing table games much more in the last year and my biggest frustration lies in the cage. In my area, the cage spends most of its time cashing personal checks for players. The casinos in my area do not generally charge a fee for this service and if there is a fee it is always cheaper than using the casino ATM. I find this very frustrating as this process takes at least 3 to 5 minutes per person. The casinos actually encourage people to bring a check book instead of using the ATM because fees are not levied on cashing checks, while the ATM fees range from $4.50 to $6 depending on the casino. I understand there are large numbers of older Americans that do not have/don't feel comfortable using ATM cards, but it is getting ridiculous. I always assumed the casino would encourage the use of the ATM as it does not require a person to process the transaction.

I have been known to complain about this problem. It's very acute on Fridays.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

In my area, the cage spends most of its time cashing personal checks for players..

Players do this because of the float time from
when they cash it to when it actually hits their
banks. The casino could install the instant
withdrawal hardware that many retail outlets
use now, that takes the money from your account
as soon as you give it to the casino. But that would
stop people from cashing checks, and thats the
last thing the casino wants.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I think that completely moving to dealerless games will hurt the casino in the long term. When online gambling becomes legal brick and mortar casinos will be forced to differentiate themselves. The electronic games are fine for people who are scared of the table or the casino is full. The casinos in my area removed the electronic roulette and craps because no one played. Both craps and roulette are social games where the interaction with the dealer(s) matter.

I played an electronic craps game at a casino outside indianapolis, IN in which players sat at computer touch screens to make their bets with the "roll" being broadcast on a common screen in front of the players. All of us shared the same roll and took turns at "throwing" the dice (electronically). It was a lot of fun with cheering, socializing, etc., but it was easier to keep track of my bets (as mine were the only ones on my display) and the game seemed to move faster. I thought it was a lot of fun and it eliminated all the chaos of rotating dealers, dice setting, etc. Also, the touch screens were arranged in a around a center area and were of the correct height to either sit or stand while playing and conversing with the other players.

If casinos go electronic, I think that this was a good way to keep the best of the old while keeping the costs down for the casino. Another positive for me was that I didn't have to tip any dealers, saving me money as well. A negative would be that a throw could be "rigged" by the casino based on the betting patterns of the players. Not as much risk of this as playing on line, but still a potential problem that would have to be regulated, I guess.

Quote: etr102

The social/human element is the whole reason I go to casinos, otherwise I'd just play online.

So it will probably remain a mix of interactions but those virtual dealers are temptingly cheap. One casino went 100 percent electronic in its poker room and then realized their mistake. Alot of slots are now social slots involving either group play or "companion seating". Things change. Automation is one of the driving forces due to wage costs and health care costs.

Quote: coilman

That bubble roulette located just outside the high rollers room is usually pretty busy too.....along with the other electroncic roulette table with the attendant located 50 feet away.

Not only is the interaction with others missing now with the way the slots are TITO but I think the atmosphere is dead too without all the clink clink clink of coins dropping into peoples trays.

As for the beverage order system on each machine....its has flaws too...my buddy wanted clamato juice with his beer...cant order that on there...so he waited for a beverage person to walk by and asked for one....had it back in under 10 minutes :( guess he should have just walked over to the bar

Those machines for cashing out the TITO tickets will also exchange US dollars to Canadian funds....but should an American win they too would have to see a cashier to change their winnings back to US dollars

As for the elmination of the live dealers I can't see that happening....but it the management thought they could get away with it they would in a heart beat


BTW welcome to the board

ETR102==Essex terminal railway?

Yes Sir, although I don't actually work for the ETR. Railfanning and railroad history are two of my other hobbies, but I don't think I could actually handle working for a railroad (I doubt I have what it takes). I work in the IT Industry for a local Windsor based ISP.

Are you from the Windsor area? I can usually be found at the craps tables a few times a week. I'm usually with my wife wearing Windsor Spitfires gear, so stop by and say hi sometime!

I actually worked at Casino Windsor for a number of years while I was in University up until around 2006. I was an impressment attendant. Basically responsible for transporting the tokens from the Cashiers/Cages to the MCB, and bringing all the cash back to the cages. It was a nice laid back job and I met some really good people there. Obviously 95% of Impressment Attendant jobs were eliminated by the time the place was 100% tokenless.

The dealers at Caesars Windsor's craps tables are great and very helpful. They are really good at following betting patterns and anticipating what I'm going to do next. The human element of the table games is what I enjoy most as they are just as into the game as the patrons are once 5 points on the fire bet are made.

I've never tried the 'bubble' roulette game yet, but I still fear the day will come when all casino games are done in that manner. Obviously any 'card' based table game can be automated with a Video Poker style terminal. Roulette and Craps are the most difficult to automate, but obviously the technology exists. I think craps would lose a lot of popularity if players couldn't roll the dice themselves anymore - shooting is a big part of the fun.

I doubt you ever have to worry about not finding a live craps table. I live in Ohio and there are about ten casinos in a two hours drive, with only more on the way. There are enough people that would drive an extra hour or two to play at a real table if it comes down to it, and the casino business is only going to get more and more cutthroat as time progresses with online gambling and more brick and mortar casinos approved. Someone will always cater to a significant amount of players desires, especially since the ones who want a real table will probably be spending more money.

Early last year I posted that even TH Poker (more likely O8, and other variants) will go to Video Table. Can't be that far away.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I don't believe the poverty excuse when it comes to casinos "needing" to spend less money whether changing this rule or that rule, but believe it is just greed. Casinos are greedier than their patrons IMO and these things are just believable excuses. Most improvements in efficiency do not translate into a competition of sharing the savings, but because of collusion become increased profits.

The casino, like any other business, needs to maximize its return. Sure, they'd offer nothing but $500 big six if they thought they could get enough asses in seats, but what for-profit organization doesn't act the same way? Having worked for the little old lady on Main Street, I'll tell you you won't find it there.

Quote: 24Bingo

The casino, like any other business, needs to maximize its return. Sure, they'd offer nothing but $500 big six if they thought they could get enough asses in seats, but what for-profit organization doesn't act the same way? Having worked for the little old lady on Main Street, I'll tell you you won't find it there.

McDonald's doesn't exist as the only restaurant in the state living off a law which is the difference and all other restaurants are illegal. There just seems to be something which doesn't sit well to me with this arrangement. If businesses were people, it would be like all people getting paid a minimum wage of $5/hr, but the casinos getting $2,000/hr.

If a business's whole existence and profits relies on the law, they should be restrained or replaced with another license which serves the public interest. I also don't believe the state should be taking money for ripping off the people and should only be reimbursed for the costs of regulation. From my perspective, the only laws should be to make sure the games are fair and nobody gets their legs broken and not to form a monopoly. By having a monopoly, the risks are greatly reduced. They aren't making money being good businessmen, they're making money being a con artist and grade A A holes. They're basically saying the state was dumb enough to trust me, so it is only the right thing to abuse their trust they gave me.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I started playing table games much more in the last year and my biggest frustration lies in the cage. In my area, the cage spends most of its time cashing personal checks for players. The casinos in my area do not generally charge a fee for this service and if there is a fee it is always cheaper than using the casino ATM. I find this very frustrating as this process takes at least 3 to 5 minutes per person. The casinos actually encourage people to bring a check book instead of using the ATM because fees are not levied on cashing checks, while the ATM fees range from $4.50 to $6 depending on the casino. I understand there are large numbers of older Americans that do not have/don't feel comfortable using ATM cards, but it is getting ridiculous. I always assumed the casino would encourage the use of the ATM as it does not require a person to process the transaction.

Ugh, I can't stand the cage at the local casino I play, for the same reason. Once on a Thursday evening around 7 they had ONE! window open. I had to wait ten minutes to cash my chips; a fifteen second transaction. I believe, since its a small struggling casino, that they do this on purpose to encourage people to screw the wait and go back to play. Especially since I saw three other cashiers doing other things and not working the windows.

Quote: EvenBob

Players do this because of the float time from
when they cash it to when it actually hits their
banks.

What float time? When I write a check to a casino to pay a marker, or to cash a check, it hits my bank the next day. Always. The days of check floats of a couple of days or even a week for cross country accounts is over.

Quote: AlanMendelson

What float time? When I write a check to a casino to pay a marker, or to cash a check, it hits my bank the next day. Always. The days of check floats of a couple of days or even a week for cross country accounts is over.

The float is intentional, though not guaranteed. Whether they purposefully wait a few days to process them, companies do allow people a few days. Grocery stores do it too. If the people floating checks at these places got hit with fees, they just wouldn't write a check again knowing a $30 ding was guaranteed.

Quote: GiorgioFromYuma

and the casino business is only going to get more and more cutthroat as time progresses with online gambling and more brick and mortar casinos approved. Someone will always cater to a significant amount of players desires, especially since the ones who want a real table will probably be spending more money.

Part of that cutthroat business is a need to cut expenses by relying on automation. Ordering of beverages directly at slot machines is great but as in the clamato juice example above, its limiting to the basics that are on the screen. Sort of a reviving of Henry Ford's "You Can Have Any Color You Wan't As Long As Its Black". Everything gets streamlined and automated and personal service takes a hit. Casinos automated that six deck shuffle at the Golden Nugget in New Jersey and look what it got them? There just may be a return to reliance on real humans but casinos will have to invest in the humans and invest in the players.

Electronic craps and roulette are here and other electronic games will be developed particularly since all the kids are growing up with electronic game experience and perhaps even preferences. As all the old geezers who prefer human interaction die off, automation will surely grow but only to a point wherein there is a balance. Same as now when we say "casino" and the public takes that to mean a balance between table games and slot machines. Even if a player has an exclusive preference, many players like to see a variety of things that are available. Perhaps we should call it the Supermarket Effect. Even if you go in for one or two items, you still get them at a store that sells a zillion items. Players still want casinos to have an "atmosphere". Music, noise, .... "the buzz".

Quote: skrbornevrymin

It was a lot of fun with cheering, socializing, etc., but it was easier to keep track of my bets (as mine were the only ones on my display) and the game seemed to move faster.

Long term, this will grind your bankroll down faster. Sort of how a CSM depletes bankrolls faster due to more hands being dealt per hour, despite the fact it has a slightly lower house edge, IIRC.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If a business's whole existence and profits relies on the law, they should be restrained or replaced with another license which serves the public interest.

In one way or another every business that comes to my mind relies on the law in some way for it to exist and profit.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I also don't believe the state should be taking money for ripping off the people and should only be reimbursed for the costs of regulation.

So if that money the state takes in keeps taxes lower or funds other necessities you're against that? I say let those that voluntarily decide to pay that tax go to the casino take care of it. if they're going to blow the money anyway, why not have the state put it to some use? I guess I'm missing the compelling case for why that would be bad.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

From my perspective, the only laws should be to make sure the games are fair and nobody gets their legs broken and not to form a monopoly. By having a monopoly, the risks are greatly reduced. They aren't making money being good businessmen, they're making money being a con artist and grade A A holes. They're basically saying the state was dumb enough to trust me, so it is only the right thing to abuse their trust they gave me.

This perspective is getting pretty boring. Where's the con? Do you not know that there's a house edge to casino games? How are the casinos being A holes by providing you with a legal way to gamble and an opportunity to get lucky and take home more than you came with. IF you EVER leave a casino with less than you came in with it is YOUR fault and no one elses. Unless, of course there's people in your area forcing you to the casino at gun point. If so, contact the local authorities and let them know where the A holes are.

^^^

Good post. But not legalizing gambling may help some people not as readily blow money because they just wouldn't gamble if it was expressly illegal, and they might not substitute it with something else. I would fall into that category.

This wasn't meant to be a statement opposing legal gambling, btw. But I am pretty opposed to it being very loosely regulated and/or zoned. Like Illinois's new Video Gaming Act because it's really going to hammer the worst problem gamblers. For myself, it's probably in my best interest to be at least 30 minutes away from the casino. Going ~weekly is enough for me.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

In one way or another every business that comes to my mind relies on the law in some way for it to exist and profit.



So if that money the state takes in keeps taxes lower or funds other necessities you're against that? I say let those that voluntarily decide to pay that tax go to the casino take care of it. if they're going to blow the money anyway, why not have the state put it to some use? I guess I'm missing the compelling case for why that would be bad.



This perspective is getting pretty boring. Where's the con? Do you not know that there's a house edge to casino games? How are the casinos being A holes by providing you with a legal way to gamble and an opportunity to get lucky and take home more than you came with. IF you EVER leave a casino with less than you came in with it is YOUR fault and no one elses. Unless, of course there's people in your area forcing you to the casino at gun point. If so, contact the local authorities and let them know where the A holes are.

Tell me what makes running a casino a unique skill besides paying less than you keep. What have they created which wasn't already created? Where is the con? You have hooked the state on revenue and to do that, these casinos exploit those who either can't afford it or have gambling problems. The majority of slot floors are all penny denominations with poor pays, but it was not always this way. Slow con. The machines are not marked to at the very least let people know exactly what they are paying. I think it is a con to allow slot machines to be switched from true reels to virtual reels and not forcing them to reveal the paybacks. Sounds like the perfect crime.

Moving up, the state is just redistributing the revenue and not benefitting from even receiving it. Let the minimum paybacks not be 85%, but be 93% and if is voluntary and let the casino decide if they want to keep their license or let someone else voluntarily choose to have a regulated monopoly. Casinos have already proven it to still be profitable and if it isn't the state can just run the lottery at 93% not needing you. These casinos are so full of it, they come into the state of Ohio trying to tell them it is a trade secret who even owns the casino. Luckily, the state didn't buy it yet, but they have changed the law to allow license transfers which may give others an opportunity to try it when the spotlight of coming into the state has dimmed.

To the top statement, "In one way or another every business that comes to my mind relies on the law in some way for it to exist and profit." Yes, every business with a historical record of not being able to be trusted. Banking, insurance, casinos. Why should the state choose your casino to operate? What can you offer to the state if it decides to allow you a geographical monopoly? Oh, you can withdraw the maximum amount of money out of the local economy away from real goods and services and share some of the money with it. You're hired. Everyone is just thoughtless zombies, so it doesn't matter what the truth is as long as we hear commercials every 15 minutes saying the truth is a lie, so you're good.

The bottom line is the state is in a precarious position putting up with bs when they are selling out certain people for monetary gain. It reminds me of the judges being paid $20 to rule a man was a slave and $5 to rule they were free men. Somehow the unconstitutionality of the procedure did not translate to modern times. To tie this to the efficiency angle, when the state legalized many of these casinos, the inefficiency was priced into the writing of the laws as a consideration for the terms. If the terms have changed since then, the state should be reclaiming the money, but they don't touch it or ever push back.

Forgot to add in Pennsylvania, the politicians are allowed to own up to 1% of the casinos they helped legislate. Nobody can pass their excuses everyone else believes on me.

Quote: FleaStiff

Part of that cutthroat business is a need to cut expenses by relying on automation. Ordering of beverages directly at slot machines is great but as in the clamato juice example above, its limiting to the basics that are on the screen. Sort of a reviving of Henry Ford's "You Can Have Any Color You Wan't As Long As Its Black". Everything gets streamlined and automated and personal service takes a hit. Casinos automated that six deck shuffle at the Golden Nugget in New Jersey and look what it got them? There just may be a return to reliance on real humans but casinos will have to invest in the humans and invest in the players.

I wasn't arguing that a lot of places won't use them, just that you'll be able to find tables forever. Sure you may be able to cut costs a lot, but dealers are making minimum wage or below as it is, and places may get triple the amount of players offering real tables if no other casinos in a certain radius do. I mean running a table can't cost that much. Between all the hardways, horns, and pressing going on craps tables are probably the most profitable thing in the casino.

As for kids preferring them, I can't remember the last time I saw someone under 30 in a casino anyways.

Quote: GiorgioFromYuma

Between all the hardways, horns, and pressing going on craps tables are probably the most profitable thing in the casino.

As for kids preferring them, I can't remember the last time I saw someone under 30 in a casino anyways.

Depending on the casino, a bank of 8 penny slots (~same square footage) can actually outprofit a craps table, especially in small markets.

For example, Isle of Capri - Boonville, Dec 2012:
Hold per Craps Table: $28,372
Hold per 8 penny machines: $55,923

Casinos with more active craps tables were ahead though, like the casino nearest to where I live.
Ameristar St. Charles, Dec 2012:
Hold per Craps Table: $98,180
Hold per 8 penny machines: $63,130

And go to a casino late on Friday/Saturday night, and you'll find more under 30s. But they are way more often drinking at the casino and not gambling...lol I'm definitely in the youngest 10% of active players (33 later this month).

Yeah, I am 34 and I don't think I have ever sat at a blackjack table with somebody younger than me that I wasn't related to and I have been going to casinos since I was 18 as when I was 18 you could go to an Indian Casino and gamble at 18 so long as your mother or father was with you at the table.

Quote: AlanMendelson

What float time? When I write a check to a casino to pay a marker, or to cash a check, it hits my bank the next day. .

Thats float time. If they use their debit card, which
every checking account holder has, its deducted
from their accounts immediately. Writing a check
gives them till the close of business the next day
to make the check good.

Frank Cordish of Maryland Live came out and said while he will have dealer manned games, it is a lot easier and more economical for him to have all electronic table games, especially since the BJ, Roulette, and Craps have the exact same HE as a human dealt game. he also was going to have a virtual poker room and hold tournaments. The tables would have raised viewers for players and only when they cupped their hands could they see their cards.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

McDonald's doesn't exist as the only restaurant in the state living off a law which is the difference and all other restaurants are illegal. There just seems to be something which doesn't sit well to me with this arrangement. If businesses were people, it would be like all people getting paid a minimum wage of $5/hr, but the casinos getting $2,000/hr.

While it's true that gambling is vastly overregulated, all businesses have to deal with licensing, and casinos hardly automatically succeed.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If a business's whole existence and profits relies on the law, they should be restrained or replaced with another license which serves the public interest.

And what would that be? By nature, casinos have to be large enough to manage their risk, so you're going to end up with better games at large ones.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I also don't believe the state should be taking money for ripping off the people and should only be reimbursed for the costs of regulation.

I don't believe that house-banked gambling is "ripping off" anyone, since the subjective value of risk needs to be taken into account, provided that they're not outright lied to about the game's odds.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

From my perspective, the only laws should be to make sure the games are fair and nobody gets their legs broken and not to form a monopoly. By having a monopoly, the risks are greatly reduced. They aren't making money being good businessmen, they're making money being a con artist and grade A A holes. They're basically saying the state was dumb enough to trust me, so it is only the right thing to abuse their trust they gave me.

Abuse it how? They're doing exactly what they were chartered to do.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Tell me what makes running a casino a unique skill besides paying less than you keep.

Nothing. But that's true of most businesses - not everyone is a doctor.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

What have they created which wasn't already created?

Games, games, lots of games. Slots, table games, poker, sports books. Sure, you can play some of those privately without regulation, but without regulation you've not no guarantee of getting paid, and without a casino model you may not be able to find a game in the first place.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Where is the con? You have hooked the state on revenue and to do that, these casinos exploit those who either can't afford it or have gambling problems.

Oh, boo-hoo. By this standard restaurants and upscale shops "exploit" those whose tastes are beyond their means. And aren't they paying the state?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

The majority of slot floors are all penny denominations with poor pays, but it was not always this way. Slow con. The machines are not marked to at the very least let people know exactly what they are paying. I think it is a con to allow slot machines to be switched from true reels to virtual reels and not forcing them to reveal the paybacks. Sounds like the perfect crime.

So tell me, what do you think the paybacks are? What do you think the players think the paybacks are? They know the deal, and they're playing anyway, not because they've been deceived, but because they think it's worth it.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Moving up, the state is just redistributing the revenue and not benefitting from even receiving it. Let the minimum paybacks not be 85%, but be 93% and if is voluntary and let the casino decide if they want to keep their license or let someone else voluntarily choose to have a regulated monopoly.

First you whinge about overregulation, and now you beg for a state-set minimum?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Casinos have already proven it to still be profitable and if it isn't the state can just run the lottery at 93% not needing you.

One sec.

*tap, tap, tap*

Megamillions - 50%
Powerball - 50%
Megabuck$ Doubler - 55%
Lucky for Life - 60%
Masscash - 56%

The numbers are 63%, and keno hovers at around 70%. Maybe Pennsylvania is better, but somehow I doubt it.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

To the top statement, "In one way or another every business that comes to my mind relies on the law in some way for it to exist and profit." Yes, every business with a historical record of not being able to be trusted. Banking, insurance, casinos.

No, every business. You didn't build that, darling, and the number of licenses is seldom unlimited.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Everyone is just thoughtless zombies, so it doesn't matter what the truth is as long as we hear commercials every 15 minutes saying the truth is a lie, so you're good.

Dude... deep. You took the red pill, man - never mind that you can't come to a cohesive theory of the battalion of lies on which our false consciousness is built, your intellectual superiority at simply seeing their amorphous mass is awe-inspiring.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

The bottom line is the state is in a precarious position putting up with bs when they are selling out certain people for monetary gain. It reminds me of the judges being paid $20 to rule a man was a slave and $5 to rule they were free men. Somehow the unconstitutionality of the procedure did not translate to modern times.

Perspective, ladies and gentlemen!

Quote: 24Bingo

The numbers are 63%, and keno hovers at around 70%. Maybe Pennsylvania is better, but somehow I doubt it.

Massachusetts has one of the best lottery returns in the country, iirc.

This $1 scratch off game returns 69.95%: http://www.masslottery.com/games/instant/1-dollar/super-7s-05-2013.html
A similar $1 scratch off in PA is returning 64.25%: http://www.palottery.state.pa.us/uploadedfiles/PA-1018%20DATA.pdf

This $20 game in MA returns 79.99% with the $8M lumpsum prize.
http://www.masslottery.com/games/instant/20-dollar/10000-a-week-for-life-37-2012.html

This $20 game in PA returns 74.07%:
http://www.palottery.state.pa.us/uploadedfiles/PA-1019%20DATA.pdf

I was saying the lotto could be that if they wanted.
Thanks for the response 24 bingo. Lots of intentional humor. I can shorten it all up saying the problem with these deals is the citizens are not being represented and it is super clear when it comes to gaming. The thing is normally casinos are given such great deals basically given them printing presses which is proof they underpaid. I do concede perhaps I don't understand the casinos risk of ruin, but it is possible nobody does. If they are overcharging, they will destroy the market and the tide will flow back to reasonable levels of casinos and more decent pays and comps. What most people do not understand is the more casinos there are, the less they are able to actually compete comfortably and to my reading of regulations it is actually the states which set the minimum paybacks AND the actual paybacks. Most disagree with me on the latter though.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

The thing is normally casinos are given such great deals basically given them printing presses which is proof they underpaid.

Not true. Most casinos in AC are almost bankrupt. CET, M-Life, and Mo-Sun have massive amount of debt. The only reason Wynn, and Sands are surviving is because of the overseas presence.

Quote: Bhappy

Not true. Most casinos in AC are almost bankrupt. CET, M-Life, and Mo-Sun have massive amount of debt. The only reason Wynn, and Sands are surviving is because of the overseas presence.

Many of these casinos had great runs making a lot of money before things went bad. I wonder how much of the debt is "magic debt" like Jeff Loria's Florida Marlins who hires his own management company consisting of merely him and his wife at a cost of 20% of profits(revenue? can't remember). No matter how many everyone says are on death row, there is someone new coming to build another someone else. I can't say they are not struggling, but it may not be necessarily true they are struggling because they are a casino. From what I know, most of them borrowed too much money.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

From what I know, most of them borrowed too much money.

Well they borrowed money to build casinos. They have to service their debt. They have to pay people. The only way they can service debt is to make money off you and me. It is very simple. If you don't like the 'odds', DO NOT GO. Visitation to casinos is not a right.

Quote: Bhappy

Well they borrowed money to build casinos. They have to service their debt. They have to pay people. The only way they can service debt is to make money off you and me. It is very simple. If you don't like the 'odds', DO NOT GO. Visitation to casinos is not a right.

So saith the King.

Quote: tringlomane

^^^

Good post. But not legalizing gambling may help some people not as readily blow money because they just wouldn't gamble if it was expressly illegal, and they might not substitute it with something else. I would fall into that category.

This wasn't meant to be a statement opposing legal gambling, btw. But I am pretty opposed to it being very loosely regulated and/or zoned. Like Illinois's new Video Gaming Act because it's really going to hammer the worst problem gamblers. For myself, it's probably in my best interest to be at least 30 minutes away from the casino. Going ~weekly is enough for me.

My point really comes down to that no one is forced to pay that tax go to the casino, they do it voluntarily. Some of them may have a problem. Ok, I suppose that sucks, but I'd rather that than live in a nanny state that takes away everything sharp so I don't hurt myself.

I may be the anomaly here. I play what I can afford to lose and usually only go when someone else wants to go. I never feel compelled to pay that tax go to the casino on my own. You may say that's because you work in one. True, but I never felt the gambling bug before I did, so there ya go.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Tell me what makes running a casino a unique skill besides paying less than you keep.

Sorry, don't have the time or inclination to give you an education in casino operations. Probably not even really qualified to do so, but if you'd like what I have to offer on the subject you're going to need to pay for my time.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

What have they created which wasn't already created?

I never realized that was a requirement of being in business. Should I go tell Burger King to give it up, McDonalds has already got this covered?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Where is the con? You have hooked the state on revenue

The state's through their representatives get themselves hooked. Do the big gaming companies want in? Sure, but they can't open the door, they can only knock.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

and to do that, these casinos exploit those who either can't afford it or have gambling problems.

So what? Seriously.

You may want to live in a nanny state, but many of the rest of us do not. I think payday loan and title loan places are horrible with their usury interest rates, but... they don't stand outside and catch passersby with a net and haul them in and make them take payday loans. People do it to themselves. People and their own bad decisions. How do you expect them ever to learn how to be grownups if you never let them have the responsibility of being one?

If someone can't afford a trip to the casino, DON'T GO.

If some one has a gambling problem, GET HELP.

But enough about the evil casinos and how they're somehow compelling these people to come lose their money. They know what they're doing, they know the odds, and they do it anyway. Maybe you should spend some time with these people, next time you go to a casino grab a handful of the 1800BETSOFF brochures and go make some new friends. Seriously. Try it and come report back about how thankful they were that you came along and "saved" them.

The rest of it didn't even warrant a response. You post on a message forum what the paybacks should be, etc. Whatever. If you want to do something about it, write to your state representative, or better yet, become one. And change something. Until then, this is just too boring a subject to bother with.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Sorry, don't have the time or inclination to give you an education in casino operations. Probably not even really qualified to do so, but if you'd like what I have to offer on the subject you're going to need to pay for my time.



I never realized that was a requirement of being in business. Should I go tell Burger King to give it up, McDonalds has already got this covered?



The state's through their representatives get themselves hooked. Do the big gaming companies want in? Sure, but they can't open the door, they can only knock.



So what? Seriously.

You may want to live in a nanny state, but many of the rest of us do not. I think payday loan and title loan places are horrible with their usury interest rates, but... they don't stand outside and catch passersby with a net and haul them in and make them take payday loans. People do it to themselves. People and their own bad decisions. How do you expect them ever to learn how to be grownups if you never let them have the responsibility of being one?

If someone can't afford a trip to the casino, DON'T GO.

If some one has a gambling problem, GET HELP.

But enough about the evil casinos and how they're somehow compelling these people to come lose their money. They know what they're doing, they know the odds, and they do it anyway. Maybe you should spend some time with these people, next time you go to a casino grab a handful of the 1800BETSOFF brochures and go make some new friends. Seriously. Try it and come report back about how thankful they were that you came along and "saved" them.

The rest of it didn't even warrant a response. You post on a message forum what the paybacks should be, etc. Whatever. If you want to do something about it, write to your state representative, or better yet, become one. And change something. Until then, this is just too boring a subject to bother with.

Did not read a word.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Did not read a word.

So says the guy without a leg to stand on.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

So says the guy without a leg to stand on.

I'm going to read it now. I found your tone a bit too abrasive constantly and as soon as I started reading, I got angered.
I don't like it when people cut up what others write in order to gain control of the situation by taking things out of context.
I tell people the same thing you do about how gambling is voluntary, but I have never accused people of having a gambling problem at all I didn't know and personally do not have one.
Personally guess what, the last time I got into this talk or something similar, I also had been suffering a bout of insomnia, and if it wasn't for that, I would be in a better state of mind and not even get into it. I am not at my best right now up for 36 hours at least bc I cannot remember. Some of your other posts I may like or think they are humorous. If you look in the thread, I have conceded I might be wrong in other parts, but what I wrote angered the other poster too assuming Revel love made him defensive.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I'm going to read it now. I found your tone a bit too abrasive constantly and as soon as I started reading, I got angered.

My "tone" isn't intended to offend, it's intended to be matter of fact.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I don't like it when people cut up what others write in order to gain control of the situation by taking things out of context.

Then you misunderstand the use of multi-quoting. It's intended to give clarity where it might not be so obvious what was being referred to without it. If you believe I took your words out of context, then show me. I don't think you can/will, because I did not. Check the end of this message for a short exercise in why multi-quoting makes more sense.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I tell people the same thing you do about how gambling is voluntary, but I have never accused people of having a gambling problem at all I didn't know and personally do not have one.

Then perhaps you should stop going on about the down trodden and abused gambler that can't afford it or has a gambling problem. From your comments you seemed to be painting them as powerless and under the spell of the evil casino, drawn like a moth to a flame.

I know full well some people have a gambling problem I deal to them all the time, but there's nothing I can do about it. I can be written up for insulting the guest by even insinuating they might have a problem. And I know from talking to them how they'd react to such a suggestion. Not only because they're on tilt at the time, but because no one wants to believe they have a problem. The best that can be done is to place the "get help" brochures around the house and hope they take the steps necessary. That's why I invite anyone that thinks the big bad casino is abusing these people to take a handful of brochures and go make some new friends. I already know what the results will be.


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Why multi-quoting is better... my message without it makes little sense.\

My "tone" isn't intended to offend, it's intended to be matter of fact. Then you misunderstand the use of multi-quoting. It's intended to give clarity where it might not be so obvious what was being referred to without it. If you believe I took your words out of context, then show me. I don't think you can/will, because I did not. Check the end of this message for a short exercise in why multi-quoting makes more sense. Then perhaps you should stop going on about the down trodden and abused gambler that can't afford it or has a gambling problem. From your comments you seemed to be painting them as powerless and under the spell of the evil casino, drawn like a moth to a flame. I know full well some people have a gambling problem I deal to them all the time, but there's nothing I can do about it. I can be written up for insulting the guest by even insinuating they might have a problem. And I know from talking to them how they'd react to such a suggestion. Not only because they're on tilt at the time, but because no one wants to believe they have a problem. The best that can be done is to place the "get help" brochures around the house and hope they take the steps necessary. That's why I invite anyone that thinks the big bad casino is abusing these people to take a handful of brochures and go make some new friends. I already know what the results will be.

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Does that really make more sense?

I guess I let the paint dry too long before I came back. Just ignore me tonight. I know was going all JC on a crusade. I'm just going to let this one go. I don't want to defend anything I wrote anymore because I realize it was scattered, ranting a bit, and not making sense entirely. The tone was much better.

Quote: etr102

Over the last 10 years, there seems to be a trend of everything at casinos becoming more and more automated.

Ticket-In-Ticket-Out technology at the slot machines . . .

Self serve beverage stations, and 'beverage on demand' at slot machines.

Rapid Roulette where all the betting is electronic but there is still a dealer operating the wheel. Caesars Windsor has taken it a step further and added a roulette wheel that operates without any human interaction.

Do you guys think we will see a time when dealers and other human elements of casinos are completely eliminated? The social/human element is the whole reason I go to casinos, otherwise I'd just play online.

An MIT professor has authored a book on Middle Class Robots ($20,000 cost for the robot) in which he emphasizes the point that a robot never has to be as good as the human that it replaces. Automated check out stations are slower and more error prone than humans, but save a tremendous amount of money and so make economic sense to the employer.

Of course I might remind readers of the New Zealand computer that turned on the lights and unlocked the doors of a major discount grocery store on a holiday morning when no staff were present but many passersby were willing to stop and "shop". So at some point automation can be costly to a casino.

However, I did think it interesting to view "automation" as never having to be equal in quality to a human that it replaces. That was an interesting concept. Depressing too perhaps.