Obamacare
Quote: Beethoven9thThat begs the question. Native Americans as a whole don't care. Only the relative few want it changed.
LOL. What a stupid fucking answer. If cussing gets me a ban, I'll take it. That is truly lame.
Quote: rxwineLOL. What a stupid fucking answer. If cussing gets me a ban, I'll take it. That is truly lame.
Actually, it was a stupid f*cking question for the reason I just gave. lol!
P.S.-Control yourself, man! :)
Quote: rxwineHopefully, the teaparty thinks they can accomplish goals without rinos, moderates, because that makes the Democrats stronger.
...stronger to eff things up. lol
Quote: Beethoven9thSo you agree that it's mostly white liberals??? That's a start.
White liberals always find someone to be offended for. In the late 1990s they decided Speedy Gonzales was "offensive to Mexicans" and got them pulled. Nobody bothered to notice that Speedy was actually popular in Mexico. Years earlier they decided "Amos and Andy" was racist and got it pulled. This despite it having blacks in leading roles and it being hugely popular with whites as well as blacks. The name characters are no more "stupid" than The Three Stooges, Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton, or any other number of silly shows and acts.
If health insurance premiums are going up by 8-10% / year and your wages increase by 2% every year (at best), how do you defute the statement that health insurance premiums are eroding the middle class.
Health insurance in the USA is more relatable as a Hummer. Very inefficient. You get far more than what you need if you are insured, and nothing if you're not.
Quote: rxwineSo you think native American groups were going to accomplish this without any help from other more dominant groups?
I liked it better when we were getting them drunk and taking their money.
Quote: TankoIf the goal of the government were to reduce competition, they would allow people to shop out of state for insurance.
As of now, people may only purchase insurance offered in their state.
Blame the insurance lobby and the inability of the government to come up with something that would obviously help the American People.
Quote: TankoIf the goal were to reduce costs, the plans would not be so comprehensive and cost an average of 41% more than before.
Insuring 30 million more people and forcing insurance companies to insure high-risk people only increases costs.
I guess they should die then. After all, it's mostly their fault they got sick. Where did you get 41% from
Quote: TankoAs far as this being necessary for the US to compete and retain its middle class: Compete with whom? People in the US have the highest personal income and the highest disposable income in the world.
True, but it's skewed. According to the OECD index, the USA is 28th of 31st place in the social inequity index. 20% of the population earns over $83K/year, while the bottom 20% earn less than $10,434/year (household income).
Quote:Would you compare our research, technological and medical science advancements to any other nation on the planet?
What nation gives better medial care? There are no waiting lists in the US for surgery.
True, but it's terribly inefficient. People avoid care until it's too late if they're uninsured. Then, they have catastrophic care that could have been avoided. They get the care, and then, they are bankrupt.
Great. Define need.Quote:If you need angioplasty in the US, you can get it tomorrow.
If you "need" it right away, you're in a hospital, and you're getting it right away. Angioplasty is a course of action to combat a chronic condition that has been building over time.Quote:My physician’s father in Canada needed angioplasty and was told to wait six weeks.
Quote:If the market in the US is not working, then where does it actually work?
The concept for "market" for health care is at debate. Why is there a market for health? For the most part, you don't control when you get sick. The best course of action is to provide easy access to care up front in order to prevent future costs. In the US, because it is market based, bad health creates more profit. There is no motive for the industry to keep you healthy. It profits from the unhealth.
Of course they do. They're a very conservative thinktank, pushing for private health care for as long as I can remember.Quote:UK? Canada? The Frazier Institute in Canada calls the Canadian plan unsustainable.
Oh well, screw the other 20%.Quote:Prior to Obamacare, 80% of the people in the US were satisfied with their medical coverage.
Quote:As far as our costs being 50-60% higher, they are not. We simply spend more on ourselves. We pay less taxes than people in more soclialized nations, and we can afford to spend more on medical testing and quality care.
The USA spends 17.6% of GDP on health care. Canada spends 11.4%. Your health indicators (all of them) are worse than many other countries and is not indicative of the healthiest nation. The results don't reflect the spending. You have some good survivability rates, I'll give you that, but I can list statistics where European countries do better the US, like infant mortality, for example.
Quote: boymimbo
The USA spends 17.6% of GDP on health care. Canada spends 11.4%. Your health indicators (all of them) are worse than many other countries and is not indicative of the healthiest nation. The results don't reflect the spending. You have some good survivability rates, I'll give you that, but I can list statistics where European countries do better the US, like infant mortality, for example.
Many of us on this site understand that statistics can say whatever you want them to say.
Since you have made infant mortality a major issue of your belief that US health care is inferior, why don't you also include the way these statistics are compiled?
It must be simple for you to show us that infant mortality rates are determined using the same standards around the world.
Quote: boymimboUnited Healthcare sold $107.2 billion of Premiums and Services in 2012 with Operating Medical Costs of $80.2 billion of a gross margin of about 25%.
If health insurance premiums are going up by 8-10% / year and your wages increase by 2% every year (at best), how do you defute the statement that health insurance premiums are eroding the middle class.
Health insurance in the USA is more relatable as a Hummer. Very inefficient. You get far more than what you need if you are insured, and nothing if you're not.
United Healthcare 2012
Revenues: $110,618
Earnings from Operation $ 9,254
Net Earnings $ 5,526
About an 8% operating margin and 4.5% net. This is right from their 10-K.
An especially paradoxical statement to appear in a gambling forum.Quote: rxwineSo you think native American groups were going to accomplish this without any help from other more dominant groups?
Quote: anonimussI liked it better when we were getting them drunk and taking their money.
None of which takes into account in any shape, manner or form crucial factors like demographics, incomes, educational levels and even non-personal criteria like resources and military spending. Especially a problem minus the citation for the source of the comparison.Quote: boymimboThe USA spends 17.6% of GDP on health care. Canada spends 11.4%. Your health indicators (all of them) are worse than many other countries and is not indicative of the healthiest nation. The results don't reflect the spending. You have some good survivability rates, I'll give you that, but I can list statistics where European countries do better the US, like infant mortality, for example.
Does the welfare system we have where generations of families live the welfare life, taking the handout, getting fat on the sofa eating junk food that our govt pays for, even though they have access to free healthcare. And when they do present themselves to the healtcare system, really what type of results do u expect .
Is it possible that other countries are inhabited by people who feel welfare is an embarrassment, and do what they can to get off the welfare roles.
Is it possible other countries have more working people who dont indulge in excess and live a life of moderation? If so..when these people present themselves to the healthcare system....better results ensue.
(You guys made your bed, now it's time to lie in it!!)
Quote: AZDuffmanUnited Healthcare 2012
Revenues: $110,618
Earnings from Operation $ 9,254
Net Earnings $ 5,526
About an 8% operating margin and 4.5% net. This is right from their 10-K.
That sounds about right. There are 3 kinds of people who talk about healthcare. People on the inside who work there and know what they are talking about firsthand, people outside of healthcare who read and research the facts, and thirdly... dunces that fell for being spoonfed lies and false facts and figues by their president and local politicians who just regurgitate these stats as if they are true. Of course these are the majority ofpeople ..and the reason we have obamacare.
Fact is, healtcare costs go up every year not only because of the litigious nature of the system, but because of the increased use of the system. Even the most liberal person knows for a fact that out society is suffering a large rise in obesity. With that comes diabetes, heart and blood pressure issues, weight bearing joint problems. With diabetes comes eyesight problems, circulatory problems. With High blood pressue comes more strokes, and the need for more therapy after the strokes. More bypass surgery....all this from new genrations growing up sitting on their asses in front of a computer...or others sitting at home doing nothing in front of a TV all day. And lests not forget Alzheimers which many feel just by itself can bankrupt the medicare system in the next 20 years.
The more the healthsystem is used..the more our premiums have to be. Its simple economics.
You know the old saying..figures can lie and liars can figure. Well the liars keep telling us that the healthcare costs keep going up....and they make us think that its the big bad healtcare system that is getting rich off of us. They never tell you to eat more moderately, exercise. Oh no..that takes effort. Its better to blame "big business". But in the end the general out of shape lazy sector of the population is the reason healthcare costs keep going up.
Since I don't see how we can't improve upon our health system, I see no reason not to try Obamacare. Again, I don't believe that it can get much worse.
Especially since I sincerely believe that the young get a huge break in not paying in while we see that their healthcare costs over their expected lifetime is now pushing $600,000. If they start paying later, then there will never be enough paid into the system to cover their costs.
Quote: steeldco
Since I don't see how we can't improve upon our health system, I see no reason not to try Obamacare.
How about the fact that is is increasing costs and decreasing choice for almost everybody?
Quote: steeldcoI see no reason not to try Obamacare. Again, I don't believe that it can get much worse.
*slaps knee* Haha...that's a good one!
Quote: steeldcoI'm not convinced that will be the case.
Based on what has occurred so far, I am.
Quote: steeldcoI'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a chance for it to improve the system. I am willing to see if it will.
Please explain how it will improve the system. Based on evidence so far, what would lead one to believe this?
Quote: steeldcoThe fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.
Based on what has occurred so far, where's the evidence that this has happened?
Actually, it's a matter of simple reading comprehension. I'll try again:Quote: steeldcoIt's a matter of simple math. Try it sometime.
Based on what has occurred so far, where's the evidence that this has happened???
(Don't worry, we can all see that you have no answer and can only rely on "hope" & "change")
Quote: steeldcoBTW, of course it hasn't yet happened.
Thank you very much. Point proven.
(Guess some people really do still believe in "hope & change")
That is pure conjecture. Nor are young people "being forced" to buy the policies. If they shy from doing that, they can always pay the purely arbitrary penalties. Great way to run a health system and a country!Quote: steeldcoThe fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.
Total Healthcare "Enrollment" As A Result Of Obamacare: -3.9 Million
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/15/2013 - 14:00
"We fumbled the rollout on this health-care law," could be President Obama's understatement of the century. In the month-or-so since Obamacare was unleashed 106,185 people enrolled (based on a loose re-definition by the White House). However, in that same period, the WSJ reports a stunning 4.02 million people received policy cancellations. So, in a month, a total of 3,918,205 fewer people are now 'enrolled' in a heathcare plan than before Obamacare. So far, California, Florida, and Washington are suffering the most under Obamacare...
.
Good. People in those states voted for Obama, so they can stuff it.Quote: petroglyphSo far, California, Florida, and Washington are suffering the most under Obamacare...
Quote: steeldcoYour stating that my opinion is pure conjecture is absolutely incorrect. It's a simple matter to calculate how much more is paid into the system when people start paying in at an earlier age. I would suggest that you do the math.
You seem to have a problem distinguishing between "what should happen" and "what has happened".
Obamacare is worth a try. Very plain and simple. You don't believe that? It's Ok. You're entitled to your opinion.
There is NO evidence so far that any of the things you "hope" for will actually happen. But that doesn't matter because "hope" is all that counts, right? *facepalm*
So you don't want to do the math on the benefit if the younger get insured? Gee, I wonder why not......
So you don't want to provide any real-world evidence to support your claim? Gee, I wonder why not...
Quote: LarrySThere are 3 kinds of people who talk about healthcare. People on the inside who work there and know what they are talking about firsthand, people outside of healthcare who read and research the facts, and thirdly... dunces that fell for being spoonfed lies and false facts and figues by their president and local politicians who just regurgitate these stats as if they are true. Of course these are the majority ofpeople ..and the reason we have obamacare.
.
Not like we should have trusted Tobacco insiders who stood to lose financially in selling their products. Insiders have a point of view, no doubt, and I'm happy to hear it.
Quote: wrobersonThis has to be an insurance industry bailout. It's a cover for something diabolical. Some grand design. It's not about now. not about us. It's something to be put into place for the next generations.
Shhh. The cabal hears everything.
Quote: steeldcoThe fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.
How is forcing people to buy something they would rather not buy a huge plus? I'm confused here. How is forcing me to buy maternity, pediatric, and substance abuse coverage I neither need nor want a plus?
Quote: AZDuffmanHow is forcing people to buy something they would rather not buy a huge plus?
I don't get that part either. How is forcing people to do anything
ever good. You're forced to pay taxes if you work, but nobody's
forcing you to work. In some states you're forced to wear a
helmet if you ride a cycle, but nobody is forcing you to ride.
Obamacare forces you into buying healthcare whether you want it
or not, or pay huge fines down the road. It won't work, it can't
work, it's not working.
“If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free.”
― P.J. O'Rourke
And those opposing (assuming mostly GOP) run into the same thing that's happening now, changing things too much could end up canceling policies of people who got these advantages.
More fun on the way, if they try fixes that start to deprive people of insurance.
Quote: AZDuffmanUnited Healthcare 2012
Revenues: $110,618
Earnings from Operation $ 9,254
Net Earnings $ 5,526
About an 8% operating margin and 4.5% net. This is right from their 10-K.
Gross Margin: Sales less Cost of Goods sold. Off their annual report. I didn't say "profits" were huge. I said "margins" were huge. When you mark up health care by 25% and then 20 billion on "operations", you start to wonder if government couldn't do it cheaper. You figure there's a large gap between what medicare pays vs what United pays which could lower costs tremendously for everyone.
Quote: SanchoPanzaNone of which takes into account in any shape, manner or form crucial factors like demographics, incomes, educational levels and even non-personal criteria like resources and military spending. Especially a problem minus the citation for the source of the comparison.
Right. So you account for the 50% difference in spending to demographics, income, and everything else to discount the true statistic. The fact is is that for companies to compete, they have to pass health insurnace costs to their employees, which means much less money in the employees pockets. Given that employee salaries are not increasing and more and more companies are passing along health costs to their employees, how does America compete?
Copout.
Quote: LarrySThat sounds about right. There are 3 kinds of people who talk about healthcare. People on the inside who work there and know what they are talking about firsthand, people outside of healthcare who read and research the facts, and thirdly... dunces that fell for being spoonfed lies and false facts and figues by their president and local politicians who just regurgitate these stats as if they are true. Of course these are the majority ofpeople ..and the reason we have obamacare.
Fact is, healtcare costs go up every year not only because of the litigious nature of the system, but because of the increased use of the system. Even the most liberal person knows for a fact that out society is suffering a large rise in obesity. With that comes diabetes, heart and blood pressure issues, weight bearing joint problems. With diabetes comes eyesight problems, circulatory problems. With High blood pressue comes more strokes, and the need for more therapy after the strokes. More bypass surgery....all this from new genrations growing up sitting on their asses in front of a computer...or others sitting at home doing nothing in front of a TV all day. And lests not forget Alzheimers which many feel just by itself can bankrupt the medicare system in the next 20 years.
The more the healthsystem is used..the more our premiums have to be. Its simple economics.
You know the old saying..figures can lie and liars can figure. Well the liars keep telling us that the healthcare costs keep going up....and they make us think that its the big bad healtcare system that is getting rich off of us. They never tell you to eat more moderately, exercise. Oh no..that takes effort. Its better to blame "big business". But in the end the general out of shape lazy sector of the population is the reason healthcare costs keep going up.
I've worked 8+ years in healthcare, in the finance department, watching costs go higher. I've consulted for insurance companies and have compared it to government workers that I've also consulted for and see very little difference when it comes to efficiency. The fact is that capitalism is seen as a perfect system which it's quite far from that. Insurance companies are as archaic as airlines. They've been around for a long time, and they generate huge amounts of money that people are willing to pay for, and they have local monopolies (in many states) that allow them to set costs and prices to consumers.
Increased use of the system accounts for the rise in cost? No, it doesn't. People stay away from preventative care because it's too expensive. Rather than see a doctor when you're 40 pounds overweight, you weight until you're 100 pounds overweight, are diabetic, and have to have gastric bypass surgery, uninsured. Who pays for the uninsured. Well, you do, whether it's you funding the county hospital or you paying more taxes, or you paying more insurance premiums. A far better system is preventative care for the under and uninsured.
I kind of feel like the people on this forum are not paying for their own coverage. Take a look at your insurance bill year over year, and look at your usage year over year, and tell me that you're getting what you paid for. Or if you work for a company, talk to their payroll or HR department and ask them how health insurance costs have affected them. You can keep blinding your eyes and thinking that somehow capitalism will fix the system, just like it did the banking system.
Quote: rxwineNot like we should have trusted Tobacco insiders who stood to lose financially in selling their products. Insiders have a point of view, no doubt, and I'm happy to hear it.
I generally like Soopoo's opinion. He's an anethesiologist working out of Buffalo and makes good arguments. I don't agree with him, but he makes good, sound arguments.
