Discussion about the Suspension List
Mickey stood,,, just fine. Not taking offense, now that is the trick, isn't it. Why are some offended, and some not?Quote: KerkebetMany demons, one enemy.
Each must learn to let others stand on their own two feet, to in turn learn what that means for him/herself.
Certainly no one needs to agree with "the perceived racism, but deep down every one of us is tribal. We are hard wired to seek acceptance in one group or another, it is a survival instinct. To find a solitary human being, would be an anomaly.
As long as each of us remains within the designated boundaries [the rules] we get to remain "in the group". It is ironic to me how each and every one of us can have prejudices as long as they are not voiced. So we all remain, as long as we feign proper offense, toward the proper pretenses. Have you asked yourself, why you are here? As it is in the animal kingdom the lion or the Stallion gets as large a harem as he can defend.
Guys like Mickey are a threat to either the food supply or the harem. The PTB can't allow the perceived challenge to authority,,,it is the game that we play.
You/we are either linear, or hysterical. As much as I try to convince myself that there are other choices, it really does just boil down to either this,,,or that. Predator or prey.
Quote: indignant99No, you'll suffer. I would not hire you.
Sorry, at most it's AARP not another job.
So again, you'll suffer.
Quote: WizardUpon further review, Mickey is no longer welcome on this site. Nuclear option.
A few things in following this up.
I heard from Mickey via email after this was posted. He cares very much about being a man of his word, and wanted to send his drunk posting fine to be used in a future WoV pool. I take the thought for the deed, but will not be accepting his payment (nor will Mike), as it was never agreed on as a suitable action following a future infraction (discussed after the last one). But I wanted all of you to know he wants very much to do this anyway, and is most remorseful at what he wrote.
He also discussed further the situation he described in the way that got him nuked. It was a situation born of the place and of that time, and does not reflect a general prejudice (that he does not carry). The US was very polarized everywhere, particularly the Army, and there were race riots in those years in Watts (LA), Detroit, Chicago, and other places (many of you were not alive during those times, which were very different, so you may not know just how bad things were); he was caught up in the extreme tensions of that time, which escalated at Ft. Riley, and paid the price for it. He wanted you all to know that it was that particular situation, and that is not who he is or how he lives now - he says that "we were all thugs - both black and white" when the riot started. It seemed very important to him that I, and we here at WoV, know this about him, so I'm relaying it here.
I think Mike made the correct and appropriate decision for the forum, and I concurred with it when I was asked. That said, everyone involved in the decision, including Mike and I, wish him well (this said with Mike's permission); we proceeded with regret, but it had to be done. MickeyCrimm has been a great contributor here, unique and valuable, and I will miss him.
Maybe someone else raised the question, sorry if I rehash.Quote: beachbumbabsA few things in following this up.
(...) we proceeded with regret, but it had to be done.
Here in Europe, we have laws forbidding racism. We also have laws forbidding neo-nazism, or negationism (questioning the fact of the genocide, or simply refusing to name the Armenian massacres a genocide). You go to jail for discussing a historical point.
I personnally think that such laws should not exist: freedom of thought and of speech requires an absolute stance based on universal principles, and not on specific content. Otherwise, tomorrow you'll be putting one in prison for being against capitalism, or believing astrology, if the powers that be decide it is illegal.
These laws are reintroducing the concept of sin. In my country, it is somehow a sin to be racist or paedophile* or whatever is shocking the majority, and the judicial system is condemning sin !
That's one of the reasons why I liked America: I thought you upheld the true meaning of freedom.
Now why are you nuking MickeyCrimm? Not because of profanity or insult, clearly. So it must be because of the opinion he supposedly expressed? Yet he did not really talk of opinion, he told of past events. So do you punish him for the acts he claims to have done? Where does that lead ? Will you nuke me if I tell you I used to destroy ad billboards?
Yes, yes, racism is very bad. I don't intend to defend the opinion. What I do is defend the right of people who think differently to still express their ideas, be they foul.
Otherwise, the door is open to kick out anyone whose ideas contradict those of the majority - well, the majority of the minority who shouts loud in this here thread.
They say "Racism is not an opinion, it is a felony." Well I think the opposite, that "racism is not a felony, it is an opinion (although not mine)."
*I mean expressing a lust for children or a hate of tanned bearded. Of course rape and the like are crimes.
Racial tension was not unique to Ft. Riley during those times.
Quote: kubikulann
They say "Racism is not an opinion, it is a felony." Well I think the opposite, that "racism is not a felony, it is an opinion (although not mine)."
.
It is an opinion, you are correct. What MC
said is not welcome because it is politically
incorrect to say racist things out loud or in
print. It's not illegal to be a racist here, it
is bad form to say certain things out loud.
MC could have got his point across without
being so graphically politically incorrect. It
makes the forum look bad if it's tolerated.
Nicely summed up and I see my error. Thank you for the limpidity.Quote: EvenBobIt is an opinion, you are correct. What MC said is not welcome because it is politically
incorrect to say racist things out loud or in print. It's not illegal to be a racist here, it
is bad form to say certain things out loud.
MC could have got his point across without being so graphically politically incorrect. It
makes the forum look bad if it's tolerated.
Quote: kubikulannMaybe someone else raised the question, sorry if I rehash.
Here in Europe, we have laws forbidding racism. We also have laws forbidding neo-nazism, or negationism (questioning the fact of the genocide, or simply refusing to name the Armenian massacres a genocide). You go to jail for discussing a historical point.
I personnally think that such laws should not exist: freedom of thought and of speech requires an absolute stance based on universal principles, and not on specific content. Otherwise, tomorrow you'll be putting one in prison for being against capitalism, or believing astrology, if the powers that be decide it is illegal.
These laws are reintroducing the concept of sin. In my country, it is somehow a sin to be racist or paedophile* or whatever is shocking the majority, and the judicial system is condemning sin !
That's one of the reasons why I liked America: I thought you upheld the true meaning of freedom.
Now why are you nuking MickeyCrimm? Not because of profanity or insult, clearly. So it must be because of the opinion he supposedly expressed? Yet he did not really talk of opinion, he told of past events. So do you punish him for the acts he claims to have done? Where does that lead ? Will you nuke me if I tell you I used to destroy ad billboards?
Yes, yes, racism is very bad. I don't intend to defend the opinion. What I do is defend the right of people who think differently to still express their ideas, be they foul.
Otherwise, the door is open to kick out anyone whose ideas contradict those of the majority - well, the majority of the minority who shouts loud in this here thread.
They say "Racism is not an opinion, it is a felony." Well I think the opposite, that "racism is not a felony, it is an opinion (although not mine)."
*I mean expressing a lust for children or a hate of tanned bearded. Of course rape and the like are crimes.
Kubi,
If you read the posts for which mickey was nuked, they contained several personal insults and a fair amount of profanity. Part of the decision was also based on the numerous previous occasions he posted insulting and profane things while drunk. It was not so much the subject as the rules violations and repeated offenses, with no particular reason to think the situation could be corrected or improved; instead, the language and outrageousness of the posts seems to have escalated with each incidence.
I do hear what you are saying, though I don't agree with all of it. Hate crimes cannot be excused; people must be held accountable, not necessarily for their thoughts, but for their actions, or we will never get past it.
I agree. I thought I had been clearer: crimes should be prosecuted, and the racist or homophobic motive should be an aggravating circumstance.Quote: beachbumbabsI do hear what you are saying, though I don't agree with all of it. Hate crimes cannot be excused; people must be held accountable, not necessarily for their thoughts, but for their actions, or we will never get past it.
Crime = violence or insults. I just say that expressing a general opinion is not an action, hence not a crime. Well, European law thinks otherwise...
Quote: EvenBobIt is an opinion, you are correct. What MC
said is not welcome because it is politically
incorrect to say racist things out loud or in
print. It's not illegal to be a racist here, it
is bad form to say certain things out loud.
MC could have got his point across without
being so graphically politically incorrect. It
makes the forum look bad if it's tolerated.
There is a reason such speech is not tolerated, and it starts with the belief that ethnic hatred is bad for our culture. If you agree with that, then you want to take social (not legal, this is not a court) steps to prevent it. The reason you do that is because if you do not, then you are complicit in its perpetuation. Overt racism becomes casual racism. Your children see it and think it is okay, and the cycle continues.
We shun it to break the cycle.
I have always enjoyed Mickey Crimm's posts. But that was not cool.
The issue here was the ongoing entitlement granted mc because of his apparently unwavering support of this site, its organization, and - in my opinion - the superficial, AP aspirations.
As EB pointed out - and I garble in reply - the stuff which begin to pour out on the side once the "flood gates were opened" finally began to make particular persons thus uneasy.
The rich, corrupt, or any other sort of small group, will eventually take action on the like-minded offender once everyone else's interests there become so threatened. I don't think anyone seriously doubts anymore the repeated observations that the privileged or beautiful in our midst still receive special treatment in virtually all circumstances.
However, the precise stuff going on here behind closed doors in black box fashion pales to the fact that mc has "one enemy"... the bottle. Despite all the other BS going on with him and about him, he then still hasn't become a man. Not a man of his word, or anything else.
Quote: beachbumbabsHate crimes cannot be excused; people must be held accountable, not necessarily for their thoughts, but for their actions, or we will never get past it.
Where I live it's a crime for a white
to call a black the N word. Somebody
got arrested for it last fall after a
traffic accident. Yet a black can call
another black that word and nothing is done.
The point is to get rid of the word, not
perpetuate it among the race it's aimed
at. Stupid law.
Some of us would have no rules, slightly different rules, or completely different rules.
In short, it's not an endorsement or indictment of some overall purpose.
Or is it? Well, I don't think it so, but anyway, Wizard tried total free speech once and didn't favor it, or even leaving the forum open in one area for it.
So, at least, if you've been here for awhile other things were allowed and now are not.
Quote: 1BBHe got kicked out of the Army in 1973 and blames something that happened 42 years ago for his actions here? We all know what a general discharge is. The way to truly show remorse is to learn from mistakes and not repeat them. I think the forum will be just fine.
Racial tension was not unique to Ft. Riley during those times.
My thoughts. It would also be fine without either of us. But it would be missing someone complaining about how it is operated without you. And it would be missing me complaining about how much it upsets you that you didn't have the money, or make the decision to spend your 2.4M, to buy it and run it how you see fit.
Now you can comment on how I comment on your posts. After all, it is a discussion on the suspension list as you say.
Quote: 1BB
Anyone missing the unique style of Mr. Crimm can certainly find him on other forums. Find one that he hasn't been banned from, pour yourself a double Black Velvet and enjoy.
I will be seeking out Mickey's new forum home. I look forward to his posts, even the ones I don't agree with.
While I no longer own this site, I still feel it has my name on it. As such, I will let free speech go only so far. For the same reason, the University of Oklahoma expelled the students involved in the infamous bus video, I am expelling Mickey. It made it easier given his long rap sheet of prior offenses.
In respect of free speech, I am letting the posts in question stand, despite some suggestions they be removed. I'm not big on censorship, and wish it to be fully known the reason Mickey was nuked.
As BBB said, I truly do wish Mickey well and thank him for his many great stories and contributions to the forum.
Quote: BozMy thoughts. It would also be fine without either of us. But it would be missing someone complaining about how it is operated without you. And it would be missing me complaining about how much it upsets you that you didn't have the money, or make the decision to spend your 2.4M, to buy it and run it how you see fit.
Now you can comment on how I comment on your posts. After all, it is a discussion on the suspension list as you say.
That's my Boz, always there for me. Love you too, Boz.
Thank you for your continued interest in all things 1BB. Many here have spent the past few days agonizing over a very serious and emotional issue as well as deciding the fate of one of our members. I'm not sure if this is the best place for your analysis of my financial situation or for giving for me advice. It's not that I don't appreciate it, I just wouldn't want to see you accused of hijacking whatever that means. It's always hanging over our heads.
Would you like to join me in denouncing racism?
Quote: 1BBThat's my Boz, always there for me. Love you too, Boz.
Thank you for your continued interest in all things 1BB. Many here have spent the past few days agonizing over a very serious and emotional issue as well as deciding the fate of one of our members. I'm not sure if this is the best place for your analysis of my financial situation or for giving for me advice. It's not that I don't appreciate it, I just wouldn't want to see you accused of hijacking whatever that means. It's always hanging over our heads.
Would you like to join me in denouncing racism?
As for hijacking, not sure you can with 552 pages of comments on this thread. And being accused of anything, I can live with it, I'm a big boy. I think you can as well. After all, only one of us was asked to not let the door hit us in the ass on the way out. And for the other of us, I'm sure it is a wish of many as well. And I appreciate you appreciate any advice I provide, naturally at no cost.
Quote: 1BBCan goatcabin be reinstated? Thanks.
I love it.
Quote: tringlomaneBut as another banned poster said numerous times, "Mike's house; Mike's rules." And Mike is still the major moderator of this forum, and also one of the strictest, imo. I definitely try to keep myself on good behavior here, even though I am currently nice and toasty. :)
This also was my 4400th post with 4 threads technically started...haha
I'm just curious, how would you Rank from strictest to most lenient?
Quote: Mission146I'm just curious, how would you Rank from strictest to most lenient?
Mike >> Babs > Face ~ You
Mike seems less willing to look at previous posting behavior if a poster makes a jab at someone, or if someone uses significant profanity. Nothing wrong with that though. Just because you've been here awhile doesn't mean the rules shouldn't apply to you.
Quote: tringlomaneMike >> Babs > Face ~ You
.
Very good. It's like this:
Mike: Off with his head.
Babs: Off with his head, but wait.
I might have issues with this.
Face: Let's be reasonable and
discuss all aspects of it and
then it's off with his head.
Mission: If that's what's the other
mods want, off with his head.
That was funnyQuote: EvenBobVery good. It's like this:
Mike: Off with his head.
Babs: Off with his head, but wait.
I might have issues with this.
Face: Let's be reasonable and
discuss all aspects of it and
then it's off with his head.
Mission: If that's what's the other
mods want, off with his head.
Secret mod: As long as he doesn't welsh
There's always Viagra.Quote: Mission146I must be getting soft in my advanced age.
Quote: Mission146I'm just curious, how would you Rank from strictest to most lenient?
Since you opened the door, how about a few more?
Most biased to least biased.
Most helpful to least helpful.
Most likely to hold a grudge to least likely.
Feel free to add your own.
How about a poll type thread where the members can evaluate the administrators, say, once a year? How about holding elections where the members can vote for administrators? Potential candidates could run campaigns and tell us why they would make a good administrator.
Do away with secret administrators. In my opinion, they are not needed. We are all adults here. This is not high school or grade school.
wow.. mickey permabanned?
Quote: 100xOddsjust saw the suspension list.
wow.. mickey permabanned?
maybe too busy starting threads instead of reading existing ones?
haha, I kid...
Speaking of that, whatever happened to Neutrino? Last visit was in December, or was it?
(Not calling you Neutrino, was just noticing he hasn't been here)
Quote: Mission146I'm just curious, how would you Rank from strictest to most lenient?
I spent all night making a dump truck of popcorn for us all. I should've noticed you were talking to tring and the response would be short and reasonable =p
Maybe 1BB will pop something off with his "rate a mod" post. Otherwise I'm gonna need help toting all this over to the monkey threads =p
Quote: GWAEI see a forklift there. How heave do you think a pallet of popcorn is?
Not heavy at all, but it's a huge volume, making it nearly impossible to carry more than one bag by hand.
Trust me, I know what I'm doing here ;)
Quote: FaceI should've noticed you were talking to tring and the response would be short and reasonable =p
I'm usually reasonable...but short? That's not always true.
My last Vegas TR was over 8500 words. Yikes! And that's a lot of popcorn! Popcorn sounds good...mmm
LOL Who are you trying to out? Just tell us what mod you disprove of and why.Quote: 1BBSince you opened the door, how about a few more?
Most biased to least biased.
Most helpful to least helpful.
Most likely to hold a grudge to least likely.
Feel free to add your own.
.
Quote: 100xOddsjust saw the suspension list.
wow.. mickey permabanned?
In other news, the Patriots won the Super Bowl!
Quote: AxelWolfLOL Who are you trying to out? Just tell us what mod you disprove of and why.
Nothing like that, Axel, although I can see how it would look that way. I think our administrators would fare quite well in the type of poll I suggested and they should welcome it. The questions I asked aren't much different that the one asking who is the most lenient. They pit the administrators against each other and that's probably not fair.
I do think I'm on to something with the evaluations and the elections though.
Quote: EvenBobVery good. It's like this:
Mike: Off with his head.
Babs: Off with his head, but wait.
I might have issues with this.
Face: Let's be reasonable and
discuss all aspects of it and
then it's off with his head.
Mission: If that's what's the other
mods want, off with his head.
That was good!
Quote: WizardThat was good!
I almost forgot.
Secret Mod: How come they never ask
me what I think.
I've noticed that the longest suspension is for 30 days. Perhaps 6 months or a year could be considered. If members were suspended for that length of time it would give them a good long opportunity to see what they're missing. They might appreciate staying in good standing more when they return.
Quote: Greasyjohn
I've noticed that the longest suspension is for 30 days. Perhaps 6 months or a year could be considered. If members were suspended for that length of time it would give them a good long opportunity to see what they're missing. They might appreciate staying in good standing more when they return.
Almost guaranteed you'd see no effect.
It works one of two ways. On one hand you have your gentlemen, your typical member. He won't be an issue for several years, then one moment, one comment, one thread, and he will be compelled to speak from the heart. He gets dinged for three days, often returning to either apologize or state he felt a certain way and stands behind it, and then he's never an issue again. On the other hand, there's those who just can't or won't help themselves. Any poster than makes more than one "mistake", that is, reaches the seven day mark, almost invariably will continue on until banished. Go ahead and check it for yourself. After a brief look I think I saw but one person with a seven under their belt yet still remains here. The others either get bounced or they stop posting.
Either you can handle the rules or you can't. Time is not a factor.
I still think members should be able to have the opportunity to reapply after 6 months.Quote: FaceAlmost guaranteed you'd see no effect.
It works one of two ways. On one hand you have your gentlemen, your typical member. He won't be an issue for several years, then one moment, one comment, one thread, and he will be compelled to speak from the heart. He gets dinged for three days, often returning to either apologize or state he felt a certain way and stands behind it, and then he's never an issue again. On the other hand, there's those who just can't or won't help themselves. Any poster than makes more than one "mistake", that is, reaches the seven day mark, almost invariably will continue on until banished. Go ahead and check it for yourself. After a brief look I think I saw but one person with a seven under their belt yet still remains here. The others either get bounced or they stop posting.
Either you can handle the rules or you can't. Time is not a factor.
Quote: Dalex64Maybe he can join DT.
No, he can't post there.
see:
"These rules also apply to sister site Diversity Tomorrow. A ban at one site shall apply to both."
Quote: Dalex64Maybe he can join DT. Maybe he can swear all he wants there. Maybe he can't.
Do you think the DT site is more lenient than WOV? If yes, what would the reason be? I noticed that, not counting the Wizard, there are only two names in green and only 15 in red. Of course, there are only 144 active members. Could there be a secret administrator there?
No one baited Mickey that I know of. Yes I realize you're probably not talking about him.Quote: 1BBThere's also the matter of baiting. Some here just love to bait others, to goad them into making a "mistake". While reactions to baiting are understandable, and I certainly can sympathize, I believe that personal responsibility should still be the order of the day. I'm speaking from experience as I feel that I'm the recipient of an ongoing baiting campaign. I continue to hold my head high and will not succumb to juvenile antics on an anonymous internet site. To some the internet may be all they have. That must be very frustrating.
You don't bait however I think I have seen a few hidden jabs come from you, but don't ask me to point them out because they are probably open to interpretation.
Quote: MrVNo, he can't post there.
see:
"These rules also apply to sister site Diversity Tomorrow. A ban at one site shall apply to both."
They have made a few exceptions over at DT.
I would love to see Mickey Crimm over at DT.
I actually find the discussions over there more interesting since we can cover any subject except Vegas and gambling.
Currently discussing Germanwings, religion and other topics
Come on over, the more the merrier.
Quote: AxelWolfI still think members should be able to have the opportunity to reapply after 6 months.
You're free to ask Wiz. I'm not against it, I just know it won't matter. Humans are gonna human. If they get into trouble it's because of their base person, and people are typically unwilling to change. Look at any stat. The rate of relapse for drug use is around 70%. The rate of relapse for controllable health issues (hypertension, asthma, diabetes) is around 70%. The rate of recidivism in our justice system is about 70%.
Quote: 1BBDo you think the DT site is more lenient than WOV? If yes, what would the reason be? I noticed that, not counting the Wizard, there are only two names in green and only 15 in red.
Really only 3 in red, all resulting in bans from here, one of which has since returned to DT. 2 or 3 were from the very beginning of its inception, just throwaways lamenting to new site. All the rest are bots.
More lenient? Not really. I think I sort of let my own hair down and am not so quick to jump on profanity, but I'm also pretty sure that I'm the only one who even uses it over there. It's all down to the people. The members there "get it". The ones that do not get along use the block function and do not speak. The others are able to debate conflicting opinions in proper form. EB and FrG have been in a holy war for several months, easily generating 10 posts a day each, every day except for when FrG leaves town. Every one is in complete conflict. Amount of bans - 0. Amount of warnings - 0.
As alluded to above, and stated in your own post, it's all about the people. Some are either generally mellow or take it upon themselves to control themselves. The rest get bounced. The amount, type, or level of presence of management is not a factor.
