New VP player
I'm not confident is my game plan, and feel it's nothing more than a string of tips, tricks, and practice. So, my questions come down to, what processes do you guys follow to make sure you know you are covering all your bases? Do you have a certain number of time practicing outside the casino vs in? How often are you finding info that isn't already out there, and how are you looking to find it (assuming forums like this one are a good start)? I'm really looking for anything and everything that can help me organize all this info, and sorry if this feels already obvious, or covered to death, but I'm even having trouble finding the complete guide to all things VP, and am having trouble trying to build one for me, and my situation. Thank you in advance, for anyone that pops in.
If you are playing the best VP games in the joint, then you will probably meet the other local VP players. People are much more likely to share information one on one than in a public forum like this. Try not to annoy any of the regulars, because you never know which ones might become valuable and valued friends.Quote: vampsboxHello all, very new to the forum, very new to slot/VP AP play, been doing some card counting throughout the years, and a casino surveillance veteran of almost 10 years. I'm looking try out some VP AP play, and have checked out some books and started memorizing the basic video poker strategy, deviations, and conflict hands for Double Bonus Poker (I have a Double Bonus 9/7/5 (50 SF) game locally I'm training for). However, the issue I run into is that I don't really have a concrete strategy and plan going forward. I can catch a lot of the bits and pieces, but I like to make sure I truly know I'm going in a winner.
I'm not confident is my game plan, and feel it's nothing more than a string of tip, tricks, and practice. So, my questions come down to, what processes do you guys follow to make sure you know you are covering all your bases? Do you have a certain number of time practicing outside the casino vs in? How often are you finding info that isn't already out there, and how are you looking to find it (assuming forums like this one are a good start)? I'm really looking for anything and everything that can help me organize all this info, and sorry if this feels already obvious, or covered to death, but I'm even having trouble finding the complete guide to all things VP, and am having trouble trying to build one for me, and my situation. Thank you in advance, for anyone that pops in.
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Short practice sessions where you are really focused on seeing all of the possible holds are much better than one long session where you are not focused the entire time. I assume your practice software flags your errors. Make notes on the larger errors and really work on eliminating these. Seeing all the possible holds requires a certain amount of time playing, but then becomes surprisingly easy. Longer term, keeping different strategies separate might be difficult. I think it is best to play just DB until you have a lot of hours in. Only then branch out to other games.
I thought about trying to get some separate software, but don't know which ones are actually worth getting.
So where I'm at currently is:
Build bankroll for VP specifically (shooting for $4,000 on a $1x5 Double Bonus Game)
Practicing the tools at home with errors on (shooting for a 3 hour session with 0 mistakes before truly committing to it at the casino)
Have found a game I believe I can beat
Keep up with local and online networking
Generic good AP advise (I'm combing the stuff I believe has crossover like understanding when you are tired, proper behavior in the casino, etc)
Since we got that Durango investigation
Decided to grind at VP playing a ton of hands fast
I hit up what is probably the only full pay nickel machines on the planet
Emerald Island 100.17 double bonus with a progressive
They even allow you to earn points
Well I grinded
It got to the point that I only pay attention to the 1st set of cards to make the right decision and totally ignore the 2nd set
My eyes got so glazed over.
After an hour, I view this as tough work
Kudos to AP VP players. You guys work hard
I try to play mathematically correct, but am not averse to using a strategy card as a security blanket on my lap or in a shirt pocket. You should learn the Dancer-Daily notation for your strategy cards as that is the most concise way of placing the information, which allows me to put six games on a double sided sheet of paper. I don't look up hands on the phone, not because a casino would not pay the jackpot or because it is allegedly illegal but because it is another thing to manage and can lead to distraction. I will play the best games available at a casino that I enjoy and are within my bankroll. The one casino that offers full pay jacks or better at $50 denomination is not a game I will play even though I can earn points extraordinarily quickly, because that is way above my league.
Starting out you should probably practice 30-60 minutes every night, especially for Double Bonus which is much more complicated due to the flush 7 issue. Over time you will be able to reduce that. Another game you might like is the freeslots.com video poker trainer, which keeps running track of your EV percentage and when you are done, you can copy incorrect hands for further analysis.
I think 9/7/5 DB at 99.11% is one of the tougher games to train for though, but if 8/5 bonus or better is unavailable, that might be the highest paying choice. Also remember that super times pay adds a quarter percent and double STP a half percent, with no change in game play. Therefore, you may find an Airport Deuces or 9/6 double double bonus game with super times pay that might have slightly better payback than 9/7/5 DB.
Quote: calwatch
I try to play mathematically correct, but am not averse to using a strategy card as a security blanket on my lap or in a shirt pocket. You should learn the Dancer-Daily notation for your strategy cards as that is the most concise way of placing the information, which allows me to put six games on a double sided sheet of paper. I don't look up hands on the phone, not because a casino would not pay the jackpot or because it is allegedly illegal but because it is another thing to manage and can lead to distraction. I will play the best games available at a casino that I enjoy and are within my bankroll. The one casino that offers full pay jacks or better at $50 denomination is not a game I will play even though I can earn points extraordinarily quickly, because that is way above my league.
I used to play with a paper strategy sheet years ago
These days
I just have my phone out in the open with strategy right on the display so its just a glance away when I need to check.
I'm a ploppy, I like to make sure I'm making the correct move when playing VP. It's not as simple as BJ :-)
Times have changed regarding cell phones
They are everywhere and often right on the machines next to your drink and ash tray
At this point, I don't think casinos really care. People are video recording in casinos when that would be unheard of in the old days. At the Durango, the suits could see I took some pics from a distance as the techs were working. No reaction.
"a casino surveillance veteran of almost 10 years"Quote: vampsboxHello all, very new to the forum, very new to slot/VP AP play, been doing some card counting throughout the years, and a casino surveillance veteran of almost 10 years. I'm looking to try out some VP AP play, and have checked out some books and started memorizing the basic video poker strategy, deviations, and conflict hands for Double Bonus Poker (I have a Double Bonus 9/7/5 (50 SF) game locally I'm training for). However, the issue I run into is that I don't really have a concrete strategy and plan going forward. I can catch a lot of the bits and pieces, but I like to make sure I truly know I'm going in a winner.
I'm not confident is my game plan, and feel it's nothing more than a string of tips, tricks, and practice. So, my questions come down to, what processes do you guys follow to make sure you know you are covering all your bases? Do you have a certain number of time practicing outside the casino vs in? How often are you finding info that isn't already out there, and how are you looking to find it (assuming forums like this one are a good start)? I'm really looking for anything and everything that can help me organize all this info, and sorry if this feels already obvious, or covered to death, but I'm even having trouble finding the complete guide to all things VP, and am having trouble trying to build one for me, and my situation. Thank you in advance, for anyone that pops in.
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And your game of choice is VP?????
I can only draw a few conclusions from this...
Quote: calwatch
I think 9/7/5 DB at 99.11% is one of the tougher games to train for though, but if 8/5 bonus or better is unavailable, that might be the highest paying choice. Also remember that super times pay adds a quarter percent and double STP a half percent, with no change in game play. Therefore, you may find an Airport Deuces or 9/6 double double bonus game with super times pay that might have slightly better payback than 9/7/5 DB.
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Oh man, yeah I've been trying to look into if the 9/7/5 DB changed anything from the base Double Bonus strategy, but the only trainer I found had to do with the 10/7 payout. Lots of great information in that response, appreciate it tons! The Dancer-Daily notation system is something throwing me off because as I'm looking into it, I'm just finding about how to write dance down onto paper.
Quote: AxelWolf
And your game of choice is VP?????
I can only draw a few conclusions from this...
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I'd be curious what of, lol. My main issue is that in my area I had a lot of interest in AP play, got very into catching card counters. Worked at the three big casinos in my area, got known, decided table games were probably not going to be allowed, in my case, lol.
But there are other conclusions you might be reaching. Probably correct assumptions as well, if we're on the same wave length, lol.
Sorry my post wasn't very helpful.Quote: vampsboxQuote: AxelWolf
And your game of choice is VP?????
I can only draw a few conclusions from this...
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I'd be curious what of, lol. My main issue is that in my area I had a lot of interest in AP play, got very into catching card counters. Worked at the three big casinos in my area, got known, decided table games were probably not going to be allowed, in my case, lol.
But there are other conclusions you might be reaching. Probably correct assumptions as well, if we're on the same wave length, lol.
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Don't mind me, I'm a bit skeptical, especially whenever something doesn't make sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? We have someone with an understanding of Advantage Play, and someone with 10 years of casino surveillance experience. Certainly, you must have seen some serious high-dollar Advantage Play situations in those 10 years. Certainly, you had inside information and access to the reports on the who, how, when, and where. I have seen what info and access security has had on me on just a single play at one casino including reports after the fact and with just that information they could do well. And now that casino surveillance guy with 10 years of experience knows exactly what and how to do it without ever getting caught.
Convince me you have 10 years of casino surveillance experience and you know what's up (not watching the casino parking lot or something like that)
And you can make money just talking to Advantage Players and consulting(thousands), you'll probably learn a few things as well.
Quote: AxelWolfSorry my post wasn't very helpful.Quote: vampsboxQuote: AxelWolf
And your game of choice is VP?????
I can only draw a few conclusions from this...
link to original post
I'd be curious what of, lol. My main issue is that in my area I had a lot of interest in AP play, got very into catching card counters. Worked at the three big casinos in my area, got known, decided table games were probably not going to be allowed, in my case, lol.
But there are other conclusions you might be reaching. Probably correct assumptions as well, if we're on the same wave length, lol.
link to original post
Don't mind me, I'm a bit skeptical, especially whenever something doesn't make sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? We have someone with an understanding of Advantage Play, and someone with 10 years of casino surveillance experience. Certainly, you must have seen some serious high-dollar Advantage Play situations in those 10 years. Certainly, you had inside information and access to the reports on the who, how, when, and where. I have seen what info and access security has had on me on just a single play at one casino including reports after the fact and with just that information they could do well. And now that casino surveillance guy with 10 years of experience knows exactly what and how to do it without ever getting caught.
Convince me you have 10 years of casino surveillance experience and you know what's up (not watching the casino parking lot or something like that)
And you can make money just talking to Advantage Players and consulting(thousands), you'll probably learn a few things as well.
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P.S. Follow the money. Contact whoever was in charge of the biggest team who made the most money via Advantage Play.
Quote: AxelWolf
Don't mind me, I'm a bit skeptical, especially whenever something doesn't make sense.
I mean, that's fine, you can be skeptical. If something ever comes up with me trying to use my time in surveillance as a way to cite expertise, I wouldn't mind proving it further. As is, I was only saying it to inform about myself, I don't personally care if people believe it or not. My apologies if that sounds blunt.
Quote: vampsboxQuote: AxelWolf
Don't mind me, I'm a bit skeptical, especially whenever something doesn't make sense.
I mean, that's fine, you can be skeptical. If something ever comes up with me trying to use my time in surveillance as a way to cite expertise, I wouldn't mind proving it further. As is, I was only saying it to inform about myself, I don't personally care if people believe it or not. My apologies if that sounds blunt.
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I would have thought you'd stay as a card counter vs VP. I had to quit since 2013, because of workload. I dont know what the conditions are like anymore. I dont see myself ever card counting anymore due to time constraint.
Don't be sorry about being blunt whenever you have a good reason to be.Quote: vampsboxQuote: AxelWolf
Don't mind me, I'm a bit skeptical, especially whenever something doesn't make sense.
I mean, that's fine, you can be skeptical. If something ever comes up with me trying to use my time in surveillance as a way to cite expertise, I wouldn't mind proving it further. As is, I was only saying it to inform about myself, I don't personally care if people believe it or not. My apologies if that sounds blunt.
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I may have been wrong about something once.
Quote: jjjoooggg
I would have thought you'd stay as a card counter vs VP. I had to quit since 2013, because of workload. I dont know what the conditions are like anymore. I dont see myself ever card counting anymore due to time constraint.
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I don't know how to navigate forums very well so don't know how to quote myself from the earlier post, but I am one of the surveillance agents that was known for catching card counters (in the casino network I've worked in) and I just don't have many other places to go, locally, where I wouldn't just be backed off. So had to look for other things and VP always sounded intriguing to me. I'm a very lazy person, and tbf wanted something I could just go out and do while sitting with the gf. Plus, I don't think anyone in my region even would know how to catch or look for VP Advantage play, if I'm being honest. Most of the other surveillance either didn't know, or didn't care to figure out card counting. At the casino I still work at, we have the same starting pay as Security. I can't speak for everywhere else, but good Surveillance just aren't that invested in the job anymore because the demand is high, and the pay is low.
mod edit: formatting / attribution -D
Quote: Talldude90someone else already mentioned . You can just go up to the pay table, click on the number you want to change and then use the up/down arrow buttons that come up and change trainer to warn and off to the races.
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Yeah, initially that's where I went but I noticed they didn't have super double double bonus, which is one I was looking for.
Quote: calwatchI think that generally, for any particular game name, there isn't much difference between a short pay machine and a full pay machine. So full pay 8/5 SDDB and short pay 7/5 DDB have essentially the same strategy. You can print out both strategies from the Wizard strategy maker and compare side by side what the differences are, it is doubtful there are many. The main thing is breaking your 2-4 trips when they are part of a full house. The bigger changes are when the flush changes, since that happens fairly often. Flush 5 games are held slightly differently from flush 6 games but flush 7 games include many more 3 to a flush draws than the other games.
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Yeah, that's awesome info. I was noticing the flush rules were changing quite frequently around the different strategy charts. That's good to know about the chart similarities, it's been slowly clicking as I've looked through it, but so far 8/5 SDDB seems very very easy, for its basic strategy so probably going to use that as the starting point, since it's one of the games in the area I know where to find.
You had mentioned the Dancer-Daily notation, in an earlier comment, I tried to look into this, but ended up very confused, very fast. Is there anyway I could get more follow up on where to find that?
RF = royal flush, SF = straight flush, ST is straight. So a RF4 is four to a royal and a FL5 is a dealt flush. Italics means cards which are suited, for instance QJ would be a queen and jack of the same suit. H refers to a high card (J-A).
The one thing that is not self explanatory is the SF3 +/- (x) notation. In any given three to a straight flush draw, count each high card as +1 and each gap as -1. So an QJ9 would be a SF3+1. Because 234 is blocked at the bottom since there is no card below an ace, it is actually a SF3-1.
The reason is that a paired high card will pay even money, so are worth more, and the more gaps there are, obviously it is harder to turn into straight flushes. The Winner's Guide to Video Poker explains the nuances in excruciating detail, for example why JT7 is the strongest SF3-1, and introduces penalty cards and the like. Unless you are playing hundreds of hours a year, I don't feel it is necessary to consider most penalty cards: https://www.casinocitytimes.com/john-grochowski/article/is-there-a-penalty-for-ignoring-penalty-cards-5656
Quote: calwatchMember Filius Bruce has an example here: ml
RF = royal flush, SF = straight flush, ST is straight. So a RF4 is four to a royal and a FL5 is a dealt flush. Italics means cards which are suited, for instance QJ would be a queen and jack of the same suit. H refers to a high card (J-A).
The one thing that is not self explanatory is the SF3 +/- (x) notation. In any given three to a straight flush draw, count each high card as +1 and each gap as -1. So an QJ9 would be a SF3+1. Because 234 is blocked at the bottom since there is no card below an ace, it is actually a SF3-1.
The reason is that a paired high card will pay even money, so are worth more, and the more gaps there are, obviously it is harder to turn into straight flushes. The Winner's Guide to Video Poker explains the nuances in excruciating detail, for example why JT7 is the strongest SF3-1, and introduces penalty cards and the like. Unless you are playing hundreds of hours a year, I don't feel it is necessary to consider most penalty cards: /john-grochowski/article/is-there-a-penalty-for-ignoring-penalty-cards-5656
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Awesome, thank you so much!
There's a good cheap app on android that is a great trainer that I def recommend. If you are like "I don't want to spend money on an app to do this" you can easily join Google Rewards and in just a brief period of time will have enough free Play Google money to buy it.Quote: vampsboxAwesome advice, thank you. I've been using the wizard of odds software with flags on, but sometimes the flag, and what I thought I read on the strategy don't line up. It's actually what got me to the forums, because I feel like I'm missing something, though maybe just burnt.
I thought about trying to get some separate software, but don't know which ones are actually worth getting.
So where I'm at currently is:
Build bankroll for VP specifically (shooting for $4,000 on a $1x5 Double Bonus Game)
Practicing the tools at home with errors on (shooting for a 3 hour session with 0 mistakes before truly committing to it at the casino)
Have found a game I believe I can beat
Keep up with local and online networking
Generic good AP advise (I'm combing the stuff I believe has crossover like understanding when you are tired, proper behavior in the casino, etc)
link to original post
Quote: ChallengedMillyThere's a good cheap app on android that is a great trainer that I def recommend. If you are like "I don't want to spend money on an app to do this" you can easily join Google Rewards and in just a brief period of time will have enough free Play Google money to buy it.
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Yeah, I got the Perfect VP Pro, which another member suggested and it's been really awesome.
