Video Poker, Top Shelf Expected Value

I'm not a Video Poker addict, really I'm not.

But I will play for free drinks, and with a healthy tip or two and a friendly bartender I have been known to be served my choice of top shelf liquor at the bar. That's about the best Expected Value I can think of in the short run.

Sure, it helps to know your pay tables and perfect playing strategy on any game of Video Poker, But I just can't see the point of running $50,000+ through a Video Poker machine just to get a $1000 pay off on a Royal Flush.

I go to Las Vegas four to six times a year, and just don't want to invest the time it would take me to be an Advantage Player. Not only that, I'm not willing to invest the bankroll necessary to withstand the variance should I not hit my Royal Flush, which statistically should come on average about once in 40,250 plays. At $1.25 a hand, that's over $50,000 dollars!

Yes, I have been chastised for playing less than full pay machines at a bar just to get free drinks, and some people may think I tip too much, but that guy or gal behind the bar works hard for a living. How would you like to be on your feet for eight hours or more, and have to put up with impatient and drunken patrons that don't even tip, not to mention the cocktail waitresses. They want their drinks right now! I couldn't take it. I'd go postal.

So, call it what you will, but with a $100 buy in and a couple of $2 dollar bills I can have me a pretty good time, not to mention $40 or $50 bucks worth of booze, and not only that, last trip I hit two four of a kinds and a straight flush on free play in the span of about 30 minutes, on a slightly less than full pay bar top playing DDB. Three shots of Tres Generations and two Blue Moons later I cashed out with over $400.

Go Figure?

Are you sure you're not tipping a few right now?

Singer says advantage play is a "state of mind". I'm not an expert on AP's, but I wouldn't be worrying about you not being one or being criticized on how you play at bars either. I know there's a few anal players on the forums who chastise anyone who doesn't think as they do, but I'm one of the "stupid players" and I laugh at them.

One thing I AM an expert at is tequila. Tres Generations is not a premium pour. You could do a lot better and the barkeep knows it.

So play at bars that have full-pay machines. The Boar's Head at Main Street is one such bar. They also have microbrews. I'm not a big drinker, but I've tipped back a few there. Not sure what kind of tequila they have :)

Enjoy yourself.

I would find the most decent pay table while sitting at the bar and play your money out slower, however. You could be sitting at a slot machine and doing worse. You could be playing bad strategy at a table game and do worse.

I think it boils down to what boyimbo said, play how you enjoy gambling on VP. I've done both myself, and find I enjoy myself just as much playing single coin as the multiple coins. If I decide to play single coin, usually what I'll do is on a win greater than 5 coins, I'll play 5 coins the next hand just to see what happens, and unless I get 5 coins again, then I'll drop back to a single coin.

-B

Back when I was a 23-year-old student on my first trip to Vegas, my friends and I would play for booze, and it was definitely advantage play.

It was just a matter of finding a nickel machine right on the path of the waitresses, with a view of a TV. Take the bucket of nickels, take out the VP strategy card, manually plop in one coin, play, repeat. March Madness was going on, so watching the games further slowed down our play. There was a *penny* machine in the Stratosphere in such a choice location. The paytable was horrid, but that doesn't matter much on a penny machine.

I'm not counting the tips, because we would have been tipping at a bar back home. And this was way more fun than drinking back home. We were straight-laced nerds from Alabama, and didn't have much drinking experience other than Coors, Miller, and Bud. Being newly of age, it was a great way to try out different cocktails and liquors. Of course I now know that most comped cocktails at these joints are mixed wrong and/or missing a few ingredients.

In a session, we could try out a variety of cheap-ass booze, get nicely wasted, and never even get close to seeing the bottom of our nickel bucket. Doing something similar at a bar back home would have cost $30-$40 and would have been less fun. None of us ran out of our $5 of nickels the whole trip. We might have tipped $8-10 a session.

(we also played blackjack and Pai Gow Poker, but those aren't as good for a drinking session)

Although I am (sort of) past that stage in my life, if you want some REAL advantage play, think like a grad student with a $20 bill. The EV is probably in the double digits.

I'm happy playing Bonus Poker for quarters bellied up to the bar in the Orleans/Monte Carlo (or other casino) watching the games on TV, drinking a decent beer and BSing with my friends.

Free beer, good games. The Orleans has 8/5 Bonus at it's bars, which is nice.

Quote: thecesspit

I'm happy playing Bonus Poker for quarters bellied up to the bar in the Orleans/Monte Carlo (or other casino) watching the games on TV, drinking a decent beer and BSing with my friends.

Free beer, good games. The Orleans has 8/5 Bonus at it's bars, which is nice.

Then you would agree with me that the world's biggest cheapskate Steve Wynn, who will not comp drinks to any vp player at his bars, does a lot to help keep fun-seeking people away.

Quote: BenJammin

Sure, it helps to know your pay tables and perfect playing strategy on any game of Video Poker, But I just can't see the point of running $50,000+ through a Video Poker machine just to get a $1000 pay off on a Royal Flush.

I go to Las Vegas four to six times a year, and just don't want to invest the time it would take me to be an Advantage Player. Not only that, I'm not willing to invest the bankroll necessary to withstand the variance should I not hit my Royal Flush, which statistically should come on average about once in 40,250 plays. At $1.25 a hand, that's over $50,000 dollars!

There are other payoffs besides the royal flush that occur. You won't lose $50,000 if you don't get a royal.

If you were playing Bonus Poker for quarters, at a modest pace of 400 hands/hr, that's $500/hr. You would hit a royal, on average, about once every hundred hours. If not, you would find yourself losing at a rate of about 3%, or $15/hr. You wouldn't need that much of a bankroll, if you were simply comfortable with that small loss and figured the drinks and the entertainment value of playing were enough to compensate for that. As an advantage player, I would totally agree with that. FURTHERMORE, I would consider what you would be doing AS ADVANTAGE PLAY, because you are getting more back from the casino than you are losing.

You mention that you don't want to go to the trouble of "being an advantage player", but you're halfway there already, as I explained, above. Let me outline to you how an AP would maximize his "drink and play VP" experience.

1. Go to a place like Main Street Station that has great beer and fullpay Bonus Poker in .25 denoms.
2. Get a slot card.
3. Learn the strategy for Bonus Poker. It's a very simple game--you can play it properly even when drunk. This will give you an expected payback of 99.2%
4. The slot club will return 0.1% in comps, and after a few hours of play, you get bumped up a level, and get 0.2%.
5. Belonging to the slot club makes you eligible for the four-of-a-kind scratch cards, which are worth an additional 0.3%.

So now you're playing at 99.7% return, or -$1.50/hr at 400 hands/hr. In return for that $1.50, you are having a good time, and drinking their terrific microbrews. Now, that's what I call advantage play!

Quote: JerryLogan

Then you would agree with me that the world's biggest cheapskate Steve Wynn, who will not comp drinks to any vp player at his bars, does a lot to help keep fun-seeking people away.

Not really, but I do agree that Wynn's properties aren't places that welcome bar top VP players, and we can happily go elsewhere that does want us to play at the bar. Each casino can offer what they like, and the playing public will vote with their feet. If Wynn doesn't give you what you want, he doesn't give you what you want... <shrug> perhaps he SHOULD but he doesn't have to.

Besides, I thought the biggest cheapskate in the world was people staying comp at the El Cortez...

Quote: thecesspit

Not really, but I do agree that Wynn's properties aren't places that welcome bar top VP players, and we can happily go elsewhere that does want us to play at the bar. Each casino can offer what they like, and the playing public will vote with their feet. If Wynn doesn't give you what you want, he doesn't give you what you want... <shrug> perhaps he SHOULD but he doesn't have to.

Besides, I thought the biggest cheapskate in the world was people staying comp at the El Cortez...

Jerry was too busy insulting Steve Wynn to attack me or the El Cortez (like myself and Oregon, they have become conflated in Jerry's mind).

And Jerry should LIKE the El Co, because they comp bartop VP players drinks. He is SO illogical at times....

I wouldn't stay or play at the Wynn properties, due to the no comp policy at bars, as well as the tip pooling that has been forced on the dealers. Tha case has gone to court and the dealers lost. Nevada is a work at will state.

There aren't any Strip Properties I know of that welcome advantage players.

I've also heard true advantage players rarely tip. Don't know if I believe that one but it definitely would cut into your expected value if you were trying to play VP for a living.

Comping drinks for players has been a tradition in Las Vegas since Benny Binion started it back in the Day.

I'd hate to see that practice go away. It's a big part of the enjoyment of the game.

I say play for fun, and if you get lucky and win, even better!

Playing for booze is not a +EV play longterm, anyway you slice it.

My thoughts